Wii: A Threat to Gaming?

[TheGame]

Fable II 2.6 million sales, Mass effect 1.6 million sales.

Respectable numbers but..

Wii Sports 47 million sales, Wii Play 22.98 million sales, Wii fit 21.82 million sales, Mario Kart Wii 17.39 million sales, Super Smash Brothers brawl 8.02 million sales, Mario Party 8 6.72 million sales.

So yeah, they just worked their asses off for their 1-2 million sales when games with a little gimick and short development time smoked them.. I'm not saying that companies will follow suit. But with Wii winning this generation its likely that people will catch on. And I don't really like that idea.

[BreakABone]

Originally Posted by TheGame

Because they're slowing the progress of the industry by being sucsessful at being cheap. I feel that there sucsess is going to cause future generations to move away from higher budget high quality games and focus more on what will sell the most with the smallest amount of risk. Which is kinda what was brought up in the RPG thread.. No companies are willing to take the time out to make a epic good RPG because its a big risk that won't reward as well as making a simple overpriced game or remake for Wii..

And seeing systems like Wii sucseed by purposely moving away from pumping out cutting edge technology is not going to help..

The Wii isn't slowing the industry, I think it is showing people that not everyone wanted cutting edge graphics. As the old adage goes, bigger is not always better.

The simple fact of the matter is if technology was all that mattered to gamers, the 360 or the Ps3 would have sold at a much better rate. Hell the 360 has been priced cheaper than the Wii for over a year and has yet to ecplise its sale on a single month basis.

And you say, people aren't taking risks. Embracing a new way to play a game seems like a much bigger risk than providing the same experience we've had for the last 20 years with a new shine of paint.

And again, you are boiling down the Wii library to what you want to see... you are making it sound like it isn't possible to make good looking, epic games on the Wii... what is stopping any developer from doing that... I know you are going to bring up the casual games that sell well, but there are dozens upon dozens of them that crash and burn.

And its not like Sony and MS are innocent in this whole affair... Viva Pinata, Buzz, Eyepet, Scene It, You're in the Movies... Home.. etc... etc...

I don't fault them for wanting to make money, that's just the nature of any company. I don't like that they're making money by slowing overall progress of the industry.

Again, I don't see them slowing the nature of the industry. If the industry wants to move forward it will move forward, but at the current time it doesn't seem like better graphics are the only solution..

Originally Posted by TheGame

Fable II 2.6 million sales, Mass effect 1.6 million sales.

Respectable numbers but..

Wii Sports 47 million sales, Wii Play 22.98 million sales, Wii fit 21.82 million sales, Mario Kart Wii 17.39 million sales, Super Smash Brothers brawl 8.02 million sales, Mario Party 8 6.72 million sales.

I don't like how you lump Smash Bros and Mario Kart in there. And to a lesser extent, Mario Party.

Besides the fact that Smash Bros and Mario Kart are extremely well made games with depth and tons of features, they are also not new franchises, and have always sold well even on the GCN which was not nearly as popular as the Wii.

Wii Sports also shouldn't count because outside of Japan it comes with the console.

So yeah, they just worked their asses off for their 1-2 million sales when games with a little gimick and short development time smoked them.. I'm not saying that companies will follow suit. But with Wii winning this generation its likely that people will catch on. And I don't really like that idea.

Do you know how much time went into each of the games above? I mean I wouldn't expect too much effort from Wii Play.

But the responsiveness of Wii Sports... had to have taken Nintendo a lot of time and testing.
Smash Bros has a comparable time frame to Mass Effect and those other games. And one hell of a budget.
Same with Mario Kart.

The simple fact of the matter is, Wii or not, I think this generation just proved there is something admist in the industry. Stuff like GTA and Halo all sell well out the gate and then drop like a rock because "hardcore" gamers have extremely short attention span so they front load a game, but then tht audience moves on, what does that do for building a decent userbase if you don't know that they will be loyal come next generation, or if they will even buy your games.


But yeah, this thread mostly got off topic, and I guess TheGame is the only one who answered it properly as apparently he does see the Wii as a threat to the industry, but for rather selfish reasons it seems.

[TheGame]

Originally Posted by BreakABone

But yeah, this thread mostly got off topic, and I guess TheGame is the only one who answered it properly as apparently he does see the Wii as a threat to the industry, but for rather selfish reasons it seems.

*shrug* if that's how you see it. I wouldn't expect a loyal Nintendo fan like yourself to understand.

I liked where the industry was headed with Genesis/SNES, Psx, and Ps2.. but I don't like the new direction with Wii. And yes it boils down to my personal game preferences and how I would like to see the industry evolve from a technical standpoint.

[BreakABone]

Originally Posted by TheGame

*shrug* if that's how you see it. I wouldn't expect a loyal Nintendo fan like yourself to understand.

I liked where the industry was headed with Genesis/SNES, Psx, and Ps2.. but I don't like the new direction with Wii. And yes it boils down to my personal game preferences and how I would like to see the industry evolve from a technical standpoint.

I'm just a bit curious... what Wii games have you played?

I'm sure we did this same song and dance last generation with the Cube/Xbox/Ps2.

And not that I usually knock someone's personal preferences, but you complain about the direction the Wii is leading the industry, but you yourself wouldn't even buy a HD console until it was priced much much cheaper... and then you bought like GTA IV and Madden... both franchises... that aren't risky... and really don't evolve the industry much...

I'm just saying...

[TheGame]

Originally Posted by BreakABone

I'm just a bit curious... what Wii games have you played?

A lot of them? Out of 360, Wii, and Ps3 I've played Wii by far the most, followed by 360, and Ps3 the least amount. (And as you know, I own a Ps3 now and have been putting some time into it, but its going to take weeks for me to even catch up to 360, if I don't lose interest first)

And not that I usually knock someone's personal preferences, but you complain about the direction the Wii is leading the industry, but you yourself wouldn't even buy a HD console until it was priced much much cheaper... and then you bought like GTA IV and Madden... both franchises... that aren't risky... and really don't evolve the industry much...

I'm just saying...

So we're switching the conversation to being about what I'm willing to buy?

I didn't feel Ps3, Wii or 360 were worth the price until recently. I can safely say that I've played every game that I've been interested in this generation outside of the new Batman game. In my opinion this is the worst generation of gaming I've been old enough to experience.

So do you have a point ?

[BreakABone]

Originally Posted by TheGame

A lot of them? Out of 360, Wii, and Ps3 I've played Wii by far the most, followed by 360, and Ps3 the least amount. (And as you know, I own a Ps3 now and have been putting some time into it, but its going to take weeks for me to even catch up to 360, if I don't lose interest first)

Well you haven't given names or details.
I'm just curious since you found so many cheaply made and gimmicky ones which ones you have actually tried.

So we're switching the conversation to being about what I'm willing to buy?

I didn't feel Ps3, Wii or 360 were worth the price until recently. I can safely say that I've played every game that I've been interested in this generation outside of the new Batman game. In my opinion this is the worst generation of gaming I've been old enough to experience.

So do you have a point ?

I always have a point and a reason, and I think you pretty much nailed it on the head for me.

You don't like where Nintendo is taking the industry,but you don't seem to like the industry's current direction much to begin with.

I mean I am almost certain that anyone of these boards could come up with a handful of games that stand out as extremely extraordinary efforts on any of the 3 major consoles, but you feel this is the worst generation.. go figure.

So let me ask you this, what do you want?

[TheGame]

Originally Posted by BreakABone

Well you haven't given names or details.
I'm just curious since you found so many cheaply made and gimmicky ones which ones you have actually tried.

Off the top of my head...

Wii Sports
Madden (Forget which year, assume 08)
Smash Brothers
Resident Evil 4
NBA live 09
Mario Kart
Zelda

I've also played some strange mini games that I don't know exactly what the name of the actual game was.

I always have a point and a reason, and I think you pretty much nailed it on the head for me.

You don't like where Nintendo is taking the industry,but you don't seem to like the industry's current direction much to begin with.

That's true, I don't. Thus why I didn't waste my money supporting it from the gate. This year's madden is the first one where I could say that its honestly as good as the Ps2 version, and that's downright sad.

I'm the type to play everything before I buy it, and thanks to friends and family members I got the oppertunity to do that a lot before buying a console myself. I'll admit that I haven't had extended time with XBL which is supposed to be good for 360 (My experience with the voice chat was retarded 12 year old british kids pissing me off).. and I haven't really messed with the Wii's ability to download old content which could be a very nice feature.. But neither of them drew me in enough on their own merits to buy a console for it.

I mean I am almost certain that anyone of these boards could come up with a handful of games that stand out as extremely extraordinary efforts on any of the 3 major consoles, but you feel this is the worst generation.. go figure.

I never said that there's no good games this generation, heck, one of my favorite games of all time came out this gen..

So let me ask you this, what do you want?

My reply in your "Immersion in Video Games" thread sums up what I go for the most. My favorite genre is RPGs, and I like some action/shooter games. I'm also a fan of sports/racing sims.

For RPGs, I haven't played any good ones this gen yet. The best one I've spent time playing is Oblivion, but I think morrowind is a superior game to Oblivion so it felt like moving backwards. Mass effect is decent, it just doesn't fit my idea of a classic RPG that I enjoy, and I didn't care much for the story (And its far from a 'polished' game).

For action/shooter games.. this gen has been good. I enjoy Halo 3, Gears of War 2, Metal Gear Solid, GTA4, Call of Duty, .. I even liked perfect dark.

Sports games this gen have been lackluster, especially football games. 2k sports has done good with the NBA games.. but EA has dropped the ball on NFL and NCAA Football. This year's Madden feels a lot better though.. so it might look up. I was blown away by Madden 2001-2002 off the bad last gen.

My general excitement level when it comes to playing video games in general has went down. It could just be me.

[KillerGremlin]

I feel as if BaB needs to validate his Wii every so often with threads of this nature.

I think the Wii is cool. People seem to like it, including those who might not have picked up a game on a console pre-Wii. I think motion controls have huge limitations in serious and casual gaming, but that extends beyond the Wii. I can't believe Sony and Microsoft are jumping on the motion control bandwagon, but fuck...when the Wii is making as much money as it is, why WOULDN'T you make that logical investment.

Do I care? No. Fuck no. The older I get it seems like the less I care about new gaming...I long for nostalgia, social gaming, PC gaming, and vintage shit like Counter-Strike.

[Angrist]

I don't really get the frustration that TheGame and other gamers have with the Wii. How does it hold back development? Did the people who bought Halo, Morrowind, Warcraft III, etc. suddenly stop buying those games because there's a Wii now?
There is still a market for 'high quality' titles as you call them (which I think is not a fair description). But the market is slowely realizing that creating better graphics and bigger worlds costs more money that it used to. But games still sell for the same price. So it's less profit. It's just how the market works.

The Wii, DS and I guess PSP motivate the creation of cheaper games, which can still be about as fun. The gnome in the backyard has shown where the money is.

[BreakABone]

Originally Posted by KillerGremlin

I feel as if BaB needs to validate his Wii every so often with threads of this nature.

I think the Wii is cool. People seem to like it, including those who might not have picked up a game on a console pre-Wii. I think motion controls have huge limitations in serious and casual gaming, but that extends beyond the Wii. I can't believe Sony and Microsoft are jumping on the motion control bandwagon, but fuck...when the Wii is making as much money as it is, why WOULDN'T you make that logical investment.

Do I care? No. Fuck no. The older I get it seems like the less I care about new gaming...I long for nostalgia, social gaming, PC gaming, and vintage shit like Counter-Strike.

For once this isn't a validation thread, I am honestly wanted to know if people have an issue with the Wii and its position in gaming.

Like I said this thread got off to the wrong start, but there are people in journalism who want to see this thing fall... and fall hard, and I just don't get that.

I understand not liking something that's understandable, but I don't get why people are so eager to see it wiped off the face of the planet.

[KillerGremlin]

Originally Posted by TheGame

*shrug* if that's how you see it. I wouldn't expect a loyal Nintendo fan like yourself to understand.

I don't know how 'loyal' of a Nintendo fan BaB is.

This generation has really disappointed me. Maybe I've just been to busy since I've been in college during this generation, but nothing has really made me jump out of my seat. Even my DS ended up being incredibly disappointing compared to my GBA. I'll remember this gen as:
-Motion Controls
-Super Expensive Consoles
-Red Rings of Death
-Sequels, Sequels, and more fucking Sequels
-Online Console gaming still SUCKS ASS, especially what Nintendo has. The only good thing about the Wii is it is very easy to sync with a Wireless network.
-TF2 (reinforcing my belief that PC Gaming > Console Gaming)

Seriously, the N64/PSX/GBA marked the last consoles that really blew my pants off and tickled my jewels. The Gamecube/Xbox/PS2 left me with some pretty sweet memories...GTA3/Vice City, Twisted Metal Black, Pikmin, Wind Waker, Halo, Jet Set Radio Future....

I just haven't felt impacted in a major way by the new consoles. I remember when the SNES blew my mind (I'm a little too young for the NES). I remember when the GBA blew my mind. When the Genesis blew my mind. I remember going through 2 double A batteries every few days with my GBC....oh man.

This generation is definitely one where I have gone back and dugg up some old PC titles. Been playing me some Counter-Strike...and I have been going back and visiting some classic titles like Sonic and Sonic 2 on the Genesis. And NBA Jam. Damn!

I dunno...maybe I need to go find the fun in gaming. As for motion controls. They are so restrictive....I pretty much share the same thoughts as Yahtzee...
Motion Controls in Casual gaming and in Serious gaming:
Casual
-Works great for some games: Wii Golf
-Is absolutely horrible for other games like basketball, bowling, boxing, canoeing
-Is decent for games like Baseball

Serious
-Can add depth to serious gaming
-Can make serious gaming MORE annoying
-People game because it is a RECREATIONAL ACTIVITY. When people game they want to sit on their ass and do minimal "waggling" as Yahtzee describes it. Amen to that.

Anyway....I can't wait to put that Sony Anal Wand in my ass.

[TheGame]

Originally Posted by BreakABone

For once this isn't a validation thread, I am honestly wanted to know if people have an issue with the Wii and its position in gaming.

Like I said this thread got off to the wrong start, but there are people in journalism who want to see this thing fall... and fall hard, and I just don't get that.

I understand not liking something that's understandable, but I don't get why people are so eager to see it wiped off the face of the planet.

To me it sounds like a validation thread really. Seems that you haven't moved past your old empty points that may have actually meant something 2 weeks after Ps3 launched. Its pretty much me saying I don't like where gaming has went this gen, while you're trying to make it sound like I'm not qualified to make that judgement for one reason or another.

I actually don't have a problem directly with Wii, other then the fact that it represents a very broken part of the industry in my opinion. You can sit there and say a lot of work went into Wii, which it may have.. but the end result is 5 year old technology being used to make a simplistic shallow game that's nice at parties. (Granted, that's not ALL the games, just the majority of the big sellers)

In my opinion that shouldn't be rewarded.

But the issues Wii has aren't new ones. It just happens to put together exactly what I didn't like about Psx and Ps2, and lost the things that made those systems enjoyable to me anyway dispite their flaws. If Wii was a more hardcore gaming system with more competitive hardware and better support for the games I like (listed in my last post).. then I'd still love it dispite its flaws too.

But instead all I see is the cheap, low priced, rushed, gimmicky system with hardly any of the games I care for being extremely sucsessful. Wii proves that older generation systems won because they were cheap, rushed, and had some attractive gimmick their competition couldn't handle as well. Its just that they happend to have more games that I personally like more on them.

But I'd like to stress again this is my opinion. To me Wii is just the face of what's wrong with the industry. All of the systems have their flaws in my opinion though, its just this thread happens to be about Wii.

[Typhoid]

Originally Posted by Angrist

I don't really get the frustration that TheGame and other gamers have with the Wii. How does it hold back development? Did the people who bought Halo, Morrowind, Warcraft III, etc. suddenly stop buying those games because there's a Wii now?
There is still a market for 'high quality' titles as you call them (which I think is not a fair description). But the market is slowely realizing that creating better graphics and bigger worlds costs more money that it used to. But games still sell for the same price. So it's less profit. It's just how the market works.

The Wii, DS and I guess PSP motivate the creation of cheaper games, which can still be about as fun. The gnome in the backyard has shown where the money is.

Angrist, the Wii hasn't been around for 10 years. We can't look back and see the impact yet.

I agree entirely with The Game, actually. He makes a really, really good point. Nintendo (and developers for Wii games) have taken a super casual route to gaming this generation. Games are short, arcade-ish, and relatively "cheap".

The fear is not that since those games exist now, nobody will buy other games.
The fear is that since casual gaming and "safe development" does/did so well, that more companies that make games for Sony and Microsoft will take that route and move away from the epic titles for shorter, casual games. Because it's all about money.

[BreakABone]

To me it sounds like a validation thread really. Seems that you haven't moved past your old empty points that may have actually meant something 2 weeks after Ps3 launched. Its pretty much me saying I don't like where gaming has went this gen, while you're trying to make it sound like I'm not qualified to make that judgement for one reason or another.

Trust me on this, I don't need you or anyone else on this board to validate my purchase.
The point of this thread as I stated before was to gauge a reaction to this notion that the Wii is doing more harm to the industry, you get outted because honestly you were the only one who responded directly to the question posed.

I actually don't have a problem directly with Wii, other then the fact that it represents a very broken part of the industry in my opinion. You can sit there and say a lot of work went into Wii, which it may have.. but the end result is 5 year old technology being used to make a simplistic shallow game that's nice at parties. (Granted, that's not ALL the games, just the majority of the big sellers)

In my opinion that shouldn't be rewarded.

Putting the Wii aside, I don't see how creating games that could be enjoyed at parties is necessarily a bad thing.

I agree entirely with The Game, actually. He makes a really, really good point. Nintendo (and developers for Wii games) have taken a super casual route to gaming this generation. Games are short, arcade-ish, and relatively "cheap".

Games as a whole seem to be getting shorter, not just on the Wii but as the size of the budget increases, people are trying to cram more into less time. I mean Gears of War, Halo, Portal, CoD, Batman can all be beaten in a relatively
long sitting. Hell, I saw Adam work his way through Mirror's Edge the weekend I was visiting.

I think people forget that many games were longer because they had to justify people buying it, nowadays people want shorter experiences so they can move on to the next big thrill. It may not be how many of us operate, but just check the NPDs to see how many games carry over from month to month.

The fear is not that since those games exist now, nobody will buy other games.
The fear is that since casual gaming and "safe development" does/did so well, that more companies that make games for Sony and Microsoft will take that route and move away from the epic titles for shorter, casual games. Because it's all about money.

The thing I don't get is why cant the two ideas exist together?

I mean before this generation we have always had games that reached out to a larger audience and was made with a lot less money and effort than other games. Tetris is one of the highest selling games of all-time, I'm almost certain it didn't take millions in research.

Hell look at all the games PopCap sells. Developers and publishers are people as well, they have an audience to feed, they will feed it. I don't see that changing... or we would have seen an exodus of talent and development to the Wii, but we don't.

And also, there is no proven formula for success in this industry. Look how many GTA 3 clones popped up last generation and are probably buried in some desert somewhere never to be heard from again.
Hell, the Wii has a dearth of mini-game and sports collections, you probably never heard of or saw in stores because most retailers wouldn't give it the time of day.

The fact of the matter is, software sells across the board, and I don't see developers changing their mind to go with the risky move. I mean its been 3 years since the Wii has come out and we are still getting "epic" games this fall and earlier into next year, and I'm sure years to come.

I was just talking to Bond and was gonna use a movie analogy, but hard to make since they run opposite, but here it goes.

Superhero movies for the better part of the decade have been big money, The Dark Knight is the 2nd highest grossing movie of all-time, Watchmen made money, all 3 Spiderman and X-men and Wolverine.

Does that mean every movie that comes out is now a comic book movie? No because producers and directors realize that the market can sustain other movies even though it may not make near as much.

The same will happen with video games... and always will.

At least my stance on the matter.

[Typhoid]

Originally Posted by BreakABone

The thing I don't get is why cant the two ideas exist together?

They can. But that doesn't mean that the fear of it happening will suddenly vanish. I personally don't think that it will happen, but I'm still afraid of it influencing the market to a noticeable degree.

Originally Posted by BreakABone

I mean before this generation we have always had games that reached out to a larger audience and was made with a lot less money and effort than other games. Tetris is one of the highest selling games of all-time, I'm almost certain it didn't take millions in research.

That's such a bullshit point. Tetris? Really? At least pick a game from the relatively modern video game era. Not a game that was made before most of us were even alive. And considering it was made in 1984 on a really super crappy computer, I'm going to bet it's safe to say while it didn't take millions in research, it sure as shit wasn't easy to make - nor did the person know how it would do as a video game, considering it was 1984.

Originally Posted by BreakABone

Hell look at all the games PopCap sells. Developers and publishers are people as well, they have an audience to feed, they will feed it. I don't see that changing... or we would have seen an exodus of talent and development to the Wii, but we don't.

The reason Bejewelled and the like do so well, is because you can play them on A) A phone which you can take places or B) A computer during a desk job. I don't think anyone thinks "Aw, I've got a few minutes at work. Let's plug away at Fallout."

Originally Posted by BreakABone

And also, there is no proven formula for success in this industry. Look how many GTA 3 clones popped up last generation and are probably buried in some desert somewhere never to be heard from again.
Hell, the Wii has a dearth of mini-game and sports collections, you probably never heard of or saw in stores because most retailers wouldn't give it the time of day.

There is easily a formula for success. First off, the reason GTA 3 did better than the clones, was because it was a Grand Theft Auto game. Grand Theft Auto was a big title since it's release in 1997. If this was the very first Grand Theft Auto game ever released, we'd all look at it as some shitty Yakuza remake.

The formula for success is simple, really. First, you need at least a semi-compelling storyline. In lieu of a compelling storyline you can re-hash previous storylines with new features (IE: the Zelda series) and as long as the series is popular enough, it will sell.
Second, and lastly - you need properly placed marketing. No game will take off if not marketed. Nomatter how good it is. Valkyria Chronicles. Hands down an amazing game. Got no publicity.

Originally Posted by BreakABone

Does that mean every movie that comes out is now a comic book movie? No because producers and directors realize that the market can sustain other movies even though it may not make near as much.

The producers/directors who don't want to make superhero movies (for the sake of your comparison) are the people who are wanting to still make epic games. The rest of the industry, we can view as everyone who makes superhero movies.

And for the record, it practically seems like every 3rd or 4th movie out these days is a superhero movie, so that was a really poorly picked comparison.

Let's look at the list of comic/graphic novel movies in recent history here:

Note the release dates, and how little there are in the mid 90's, and how many come out between 2005-2011. There is a definite influx beginning to take place, 10-15 years after superhero movies started out in the late 80's.


30 days of night - 2007
300 - 2007
Every alien vs. predator movie
Ant-Man- 2010 (Oh, it's coming)
The Avengers -2011
Every Batman movie.
The Blade series.
Captain America: The First Avenger - 2011
Catwoman - 2004
Constantine - 2005
All of The Crow movies.
Daredevil - 2003
Deathlok - 2011
Elektra - 2005
Fantastic Four - 2005
Fantastic Four Rise of the Silver Surfer - 2007
Ghost Rider - 2007
Green Lantern - 2011
The Hellboy movies
All The Hulk movies.
Iron Man - 2008
Iron Man 2 - 2010
Josie and the Pussycats - 2001
Judge Dredd - 1995
The League of Extraordinary Gentlemen - 2003
Magneto - 2011
The Mask - 1995
Men In Black - 1997
Men In Black II - 2002
Mystery Men - 1999
Nick Fury - 2010
The Punisher - 2004
The Punisher War Zone - 2008
Sin City - 2005
Spawn - 1997
Spider-Man - 2002
Spider-Man 2 - 2004
Spider-Man 3 - 2007
Spider-Man 4 - 2011
The Spirit - 2008
Tank Girl - 1995
Teanage Mutant Ninja Turtles - 1990
Secret of Ooze - 1991
Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles III - 1993
Timecop - 1994
Timecop: The Berlin Decision - 2002
Thor - 2010
V for Vendetta - 2006
Venom - 2011
Wanted - 2008
Watchmen - 2009
Whiteout - 2009
XMen - 2000
X-2 - 2003
The Last Stand - 2006
Origins: Wolverine - 2009