Mrs. Clinton or Mr. Obama

[Jason1]

If Hiliary wins the primary, I would say Mcain might have a chance. Thats still a big might. If Obama wins, he has no chance.

[Professor S]

Originally Posted by Jason1

If Hiliary wins the primary, I would say Mcain might have a chance. Thats still a big might. If Obama wins, he has no chance.

Personally I think Obama is going to get anally raped in the general regardless of who he runs against. You can only get by on bullshit and catch phrases for so long before people start asking questions about your experience and actual political platforms.

In the end, his far left state representative record will get full daylight in a general election, something Hillary can't do for fear of alienating the leftist/MoveOn.org base, and that will alienate him from many of the independent supporters than he is pandering to right now. The Republican campaign machine is ruthless, and Obama has so many areas in his past to exploit that he might not win back his Senate seat after the presidential election.

Hope Hillary wins. Thats your best shot.

[The Germanator]

Originally Posted by Professor S

Personally I think Obama is going to get anally raped in the general regardless of who he runs against. You can only get by on bullshit and catch phrases for so long before people start asking questions about your experience and actual political platforms.

In the end, his far left state representative record will get full daylight in a general election, something Hillary can't do for fear of alienating the leftist/MoveOn.org base, and that will alienate him from many of the independent supporters than he is pandering to right now. The Republican campaign machine is ruthless, and Obama has so many areas in his past to exploit that he might not win back his Senate seat after the presidential election.

Hope Hillary wins. Thats your best shot.

Not according to this.

http://www.cnn.com/2008/POLITICS/02/...ups.schneider/

By "areas in his past" do you mean, "OMG he admitted doing drugs, he's a muslim, his middle name is Hussein, OMG!"

The sad thing is, you're probably right. Our country and the conservatives are asinine enough to bring things up that idiotic and non-relevant that people will believe that it actually matters. It's horrible. It'll just be like the John Kerry swiftboat bullshit where a Viet Nam veteran was as you say "anally raped" for being honest.

I love how honesty is something to attack rather than commend. That's how sad this whole process is.

[Professor S]

Originally Posted by The Germanator

Not according to this.

http://www.cnn.com/2008/POLITICS/02/...ups.schneider/

By "areas in his past" do you mean, "OMG he admitted doing drugs, he's a muslim, his middle name is Hussein, OMG!"

The sad thing is, you're probably right. Our country and the conservatives are asinine enough to bring things up that idiotic and non-relevant that people will believe that it actually matters. It's horrible. It'll just be like the John Kerry swiftboat bullshit where a Viet Nam veteran was as you say "anally raped" for being honest.

I love how honesty is something to attack rather than commend. That's how sad this whole process is.

I never said I agreed with it, its just he way it is. I have no problem with Obama's drug use, I used to smoke the dope, but a lot of people will have issues.

I kind of think the Muslim thing is a non-issue, as he isn't one and never was one, but his active membership in a borderline black separatist church might be used against him.

And when it comes down to it, he'll be judged on his past record as well, and the Republican machine will have no issues digging up state rep record which is just to the left of Vladamir Lenin. That will eat up his independent support that will have no issue flipping over to McCain. Add all this up, and you have yourself a big fat loss if conservatives come out to vote.

Kerry was anally raped by the switftboaters due to his own dumbass mistake of running as a war hero after making very public statements against the military after his vietnam service, many of the comments proven to be things that he never witnessed and in many cases never happened. As soon as he said "John Kerry, reporting for duty" at the national convention I knew he was finished.

And don't be so high and mighty in singling out conservatives as being brutal campaigners. The Clintons have their own history when it comes to dirty pool.

[Professor S]

I'm doing it again, aren't I?

I need to learn when to let a political discussion die...

[Bond]

Obama is a very nice, likable guy... but, I think that's his only redeeming quality. Take, for example, JFK, who was also a nice, likable guy, but also had rational policy to back it up. In-fact, Obama is more or less a socialist. He is left of Hillary. I think this will be a problem for many voters, as McCain is more a centrist than anything.

[Jason1]

Honestly, Professor, I totally disagree with you. I believe that John Mcains Campaign are praying every night that Hillary wins.

Oh, and we cant compare Kerry to Obama. I mean, Obama is a much much much stronger candidate for the Dems. They didnt really even have a ligitimate candidate last election.

[Professor S]

Originally Posted by Jason1

Honestly, Professor, I totally disagree with you. I believe that John Mcains Campaign are praying every night that Hillary wins.

Oh, and we cant compare Kerry to Obama. I mean, Obama is a much much much stronger candidate for the Dems. They didnt really even have a ligitimate candidate last election.

I wasn't comparing them, I responded to Germs post that compared the tactics used to attack Democrats. I actually think Kerry is about 500% more qualified to be president than Obama.

I can respect you disagreeing with me, but on what are you basing this on? Obama's state and Senatorial record make him one of the most left wing, if not THE most left wing politician in America. Do you think America leans that far left?

Also, can anyone tell me in detailed terms what it is about Obama's policies and platforms that they like so much? I can't think of a single thing he's said that doesn't involve stale platitudes like "Brand New Day", "Now is Our Time" or "Keep Hope Alive"... sorry, wrong populist motivational speaker...

[The Germanator]

Originally Posted by Professor S

I wasn't comparing them, I responded to Germs post that compared the tactics used to attack Democrats. I actually think Kerry is about 500% more qualified to be president than Obama.

I can respect you disagreeing with me, but on what are you basing this on? Obama's state and Senatorial record make him one of the most left wing, if not THE most left wing politician in America. Do you think America leans that far left?

Also, can anyone tell me in detailed terms what it is about Obama's policies and platforms that they like so much? I can't think of a single thing he's said that doesn't involve stale platitudes like "Brand New Day", "Now is Our Time" or "Keep Hope Alive"... sorry, wrong populist motivational speaker...

Well, the problem might be that you've only listened to him recently. Even as one of his supporters I would agree that the "We Can Change" stuff is getting pretty tired, but for me this really only started during this primary season where momentum and appearance seem more important than issues at this point. Sad but true. Before that during the many Democratic debates leading up to the primaries all we heard about were the issues. The thing is, Obama is my second choice. Policy-wise, the candidate I most agreed with was Dennis Kucinich. Maybe you'll think I'm a whack job for saying that, but I think he had the best and most innovative ideas for the country. Impeaching Dick Cheney, well, not so much, but many of his other ideas were spot on in my mind.

Anyway, back to Obama...I'd rather him talk about the issues more, but that doesn't mean you can't be informed of his stances on Healthcare, Economics, Immigration, Education, Enviorment, Iraq, etc. by doing some extra work..I don't agree with everything, but enough to like him better than Hillary. In the end, the "lack of experience" card doesn't bother me as much, because if the past administration embodies that experience, then I don't want any of that anymore. I just think we have to get out of this Bush/Clinton/Bush/Clinton regime...It's not my only reason and certainly not the best to not vote for someone, but hell, WE CAN CHANGE.

[Bond]

Originally Posted by The Germanator

Anyway, back to Obama...I'd rather him talk about the issues more, but that doesn't mean you can't be informed of his stances on Healthcare, Economics, Immigration, Education, Enviorment, Iraq, etc. by doing some extra work..I don't agree with everything, but enough to like him better than Hillary. In the end, the "lack of experience" card doesn't bother me as much, because if the past administration embodies that experience, then I don't want any of that anymore. I just think we have to get out of this Bush/Clinton/Bush/Clinton regime...It's not my only reason and certainly not the best to not vote for someone, but hell, WE CAN CHANGE.

Even if you view the "Issues" portion of his website his stances are still extremely vague. He's basically in favor of increasing the welfare state in America. I think the country needs someone who will balance the budget and cut spending after Bush's out of control spending. Of course, since countries continue to invest in our country, our debt isn't really an issue, whereas it would be an issue for smaller countries.

[Dylflon]

Originally Posted by Professor S

I wasn't comparing them, I responded to Germs post that compared the tactics used to attack Democrats. I actually think Kerry is about 500% more qualified to be president than Obama.

I can respect you disagreeing with me, but on what are you basing this on? Obama's state and Senatorial record make him one of the most left wing, if not THE most left wing politician in America. Do you think America leans that far left?

Also, can anyone tell me in detailed terms what it is about Obama's policies and platforms that they like so much? I can't think of a single thing he's said that doesn't involve stale platitudes like "Brand New Day", "Now is Our Time" or "Keep Hope Alive"... sorry, wrong populist motivational speaker...

Yeah! Voting for a left wing candidate would be fucking stupid! I mean, can't you see how many amazing things that the right wingers did for us these last 8 years. Americans would be stupid to suggest radical change.

I think the best course of action is to maintain a conservative stance. Let's just not think about any drastic changes here. The status quo is what matters.

[Professor S]

Originally Posted by Dylflon

Yeah! Voting for a left wing candidate would be fucking stupid! I mean, can't you see how many amazing things that the right wingers did for us these last 8 years. Americans would be stupid to suggest radical change.

I think the best course of action is to maintain a conservative stance. Let's just not think about any drastic changes here. The status quo is what matters.

I was asking an honest question. And my comments weren't against democrats in general, they were about ONE PERSON: Barak Obama. I believe my comments about Hillary and John Kerry even bordered on flattering. I simply asked what was it about his policies and platforms that people found so attractive. Germ didn't mention specific policies, but considering his love of Dennis "Beam Me Up" Kucinich, I can only guess I agree with zero of his political thinking, and thats ok.

Dyflon, don't deflect my question by throwing everything back on the Republicans/Conservatives. I was asking about issues, not personal bias' or poltical barbs. I honestly want to know what it is about Obama that they like so much. He is amazingly elusive in avoiding the subject of his poltical beliefs beyond those that can be wrapped up in almost religious rhetoric.

This is a huge issue that he will have to face in a general election. If he will not get specific, because McCain will be VERY specific in his ideas and policies, he'll have to rely on two things: Experience (he has none) and his continued "I Have a Dream" speeches, and they are already growing old, and will only go more stale as the Democrat primary continues, probably up to the convention.

Now Obama's voting record will also come up, and he is one of the most, if not THE most liberal Senators, and for this argument I won't say that's a bad thing, but its a set of ideals that the majority of the American people still don't identify with. The American idependent voter is not a liberal, and never has been, they just aren't conservative. The independent voter is what elected Bush, and it wasn't just the swiftboaters that did it. Kerry's comments about differing American policy to world opinion did as much, if not more, to sink his campaign.

My thoughts on this aren't about who I'd like to be President, they are about the realities of politics in this country. I'm not saying Obama doesn't have a chance because I don't want him to be President (and I don't), I'm saying it because once you start adding up all these points, it leads to him getting beaten in the general.

Hillary is your best shot.

[The Germanator]

Originally Posted by Professor S

\ Germ didn't mention specific policies, but considering his love of Dennis "Beam Me Up" Kucinich, I can only guess I agree with zero of his political thinking, and thats ok.

Just to respond to this bit...I'd much rather have a president who might believe in UFOs (Kucinich) then one who makes asinine jokes about war. (McCain)


I feel like McCain should have been ripped for this, but nah...I guess we'll be in both Iraq and Iran until 2108.

[Professor S]

Originally Posted by The Germanator

Just to respond to this bit...I'd much rather have a president who might believe in UFOs (Kucinich) then one who makes asinine jokes about war. (McCain)


I feel like McCain should have been ripped for this, but nah...I guess we'll be in both Iraq and Iran until 2108.

For the record that was an honest "thats ok", I wasn't being sarcastic. I don't expect everyone in the world to agree with my political opinion, and my disagreements with Kucinich have nothing really to do with his belief in aliens, its his belief in the U.S.S.A. Your political affiliations are yours, and I won't say they're bad even if I disagree with them. I'm trying to be better about that.

I can't listen to his joke as I'm at work and have no sound, but if anyone could make a joke based on war it would be McCain. The man spent 5 years being tortured in the Hanoi Hilton when he could have gone home, but he stayed because he refused to be treated differently than any other prisoner. That buys him a little room to breath when it comes to politically incorrect war jokes, IMO.

Amd why does everyone keep trying to DEFLECT THE ISSUE. I'm talking about Barak here, NOT McCAIN. McCain is not the answer to Barak's obvious political weaknesses. Once again, this isn't about preference, its about political realities.

As for remaining in these countries, its a definite regardless of who is president. We''re still in Korea, we're still in GERMANY and JAPAN for Christ's sakes. That doesn't make us imperialist, it makes us sensible. Japan, Korea and Germany all needed us there to help rebuild and maintain order after the end of those wars. It took years to rebuild Germany and DECADES to rebuild Japan. To think we'll just pull out of Iraq if Barak is elected is naive, and if he did pull us out it would be disastrous for reasons that should be obvious.

[Dylflon]

Strangler, I wasn't arguing with you per se so much as I was expressing my distaste that being left leaning is automatically a thing that can break the deal for you as a politician in the states even after the 8 years you all just went through.