Buyng a Gun

[Professor S]

I'm purchasing a home defense weapon in the near future. I've owned guns before, but they were only a .22 rifle and a 30/6 hunting rifle, both of which not ideal for home defense. I'm looking for something that doesn't involve much aiming or thinking beyond turning the safety off and zero chance of misfire/jamming.

So far I've broken it down to these:

Mossberg 590A1 - These have been banging down doors in the Middle East for a decade. Easy to use, reliable and powerful. Con - Big and might be hard to maneuver and store. Plus - Plenty of accessories, like attachable flashlights, which are perfect for late night home defense.




Taurus "The Judge" .45/.410 pistol



The benefit of this weapon is that it fires either .45 caliber rounds, a proven man-stopper, or .410 shotgun shells with a wide area of affect. Con - The .410 shells don't have much stopping power, but after the first disorienting and very painful .410 round each subsequent chamber can be loaded with .45. The .410 gives you time to aim the .45 if necessary. Plus - Its small and very versatile.


SAIGA 12 Shotgun



Well... just %$&@ing look at it! It even looks like it might kill you by looking at its picture.

J/K - I'm really between the Mossberg and the Taurus. My hope is that I'll never have to touch either one I choose, beyond maintenance and learning how to operate it properly.

[Vampyr]

I would go for the Taurus.

The shotgun seems as likely to damage your own property as it is the intruder.

[Ginkasa]

Did something happen to cause you to want a crazy hardcore shotgun, or did just think "Well, you never know?"

[Professor S]

Originally Posted by Ginkasa

Did something happen to cause you to want a crazy hardcore shotgun, or did just think "Well, you never know?"

I'm not interested in the Mossberg because its "crazy hardcore", but only because its rated as very reliable and easy to use. I'm also interested in the version without the stock and the standard Mossberg 500 depending on cost (the 500 is only about $200). I just thought if I'm going to get a shotgun for home defense I might as well get the one that will liquefy a man's torso if the need arises.

The idea is that I'm not going to have time to think or even really aim. My blood pressure will be through the roof with adrenaline pumping, and I want to know that if I pull the trigger the intruder is 1) going to get hit and 2) is not going to need a second round.

As for the need for this, I think the fact I'm having a kid has made me bite the bullet on buying a home-defense weapon. I first got the itch when I got married, but now with a kid on the way there is just so much to lose if some scumbag invades my home.

[Teuthida]

It's the whole torso liquefying thing that bothers me. Checked out a video for the Taurus. Ouch. Perhaps its just me but if you really must have a gun, number one it would be used to scare someone off, and number two you shoot to injure and not kill...thus taking the time to learn how to use your killing device. Happen to know the statistics of unarmed vs armed break-ins? A shotgun to the chest of a kid trying to nick your Xbox is a bit harsh.

[Professor S]

Originally Posted by Teuthida

It's the whole torso liquefying thing that bothers me. Checked out a video for the Taurus. Ouch. Perhaps its just me but if you really must have a gun, number one it would be used to scare someone off, and number two you shoot to injure and not kill...thus taking the time to learn how to use your killing device. Happen to know the statistics of unarmed vs armed break-ins? A shotgun to the chest of a kid trying to nick your Xbox is a bit harsh.

No offense Teuth, but I'm going to chalk that up to you not having a family or a home of your own yet. Trust me, if you think someone has broken into your home the last thing your worried about is aiming to injure. If I have to shoot, I want that person to blow to pieces. I can't assume the intent on the intruder and anyone would be stupid to do so.

That said, the one time I thought someone broke into my house my first reaction was to first announce that I had a gun and then I told the non-existent intruder that if they left now nothing would happen. (A branch broke a window)

After I waited and didn't hear anyone leaving, I headed down stairs to check things out. I was never so scared in my life and I definitely would not have the capacity to rationally "aim to wound" regardless of training with the weapon (I am trained with guns, BTW, over 20 hours total). At the time, I felt completely helpless: "What if he has a gun?" was all I was thinking and I raced to the kitchen to grab a knife before exploring any further.

Bottom-line: If someone breaks into my house I assume they are threatening my safety and the safety of those I love. If I see someone I shoot to hit the target, and STOP the target, and I want a weapon that will make it difficult to fail at that goal.

If someone doesn't want to get shot then they shouldn't invade someone else's home. Thieves should be well aware of the risks they take.

[Typhoid]

I'm a firm believer in pacifism, and only would suggest a gun for hunting - I did however work out some math the other day - albeit no doubt incorrectly:

There is a break in in the US every 15 seconds, which after you do all of the tedious mathworking, means that everyone in the US (based on the numbers) will be broken into every 14 years.


Edit: And Maybe just because it's Canada and we don't feel we constantly need guns for every situation; someone tried to break into my dad's house and failed. Instead of buying a gun, he spent money on preventing ways people can break into the house. And to me that actually makes a lot more sense. Why buy a gun, if you can just buy alarm systems, knob-to-floor door stops or heavy duty deadbolts and latches.

Guns should be for hunting.

[Dylflon]

I agree with the Typh.

I'm pretty firmly against guns in the home. If you're doing it for protection you don't really need a shotgun.

Go for the Taurus if you have to pick, otherwise I get the impression that you kinda want to kill somebody (since shotguns tear people apart).

[Bond]

Originally Posted by Professor S

No offense Teuth, but I'm going to chalk that up to you not having a family or a home of your own yet. Trust me, if you think someone has broken into your home the last thing your worried about is aiming to injure. If I have to shoot, I want that person to blow to pieces. I can't assume the intent on the intruder and anyone would be stupid to do so.

I could be wrong on this, but I think that is tricky legal ground. You have a right to defend your home against a threat, but only to a point. I can't see a jury taking kindly to a kid breaking into your house to steal beer and you blow him to pieces.

[Professor S]

Originally Posted by Dylflon

I agree with the Typh.

I'm pretty firmly against guns in the home. If you're doing it for protection you don't really need a shotgun.

Go for the Taurus if you have to pick, otherwise I get the impression that you kinda want to kill somebody (since shotguns tear people apart).

What in the world are you talking about? I want to KILL SOMEONE? Are you nuts? Did you ready anything I wrote? This is why its so hard to have a discussion with some people.

I want to PROTECT MY FAMILY. I will regret having to kill someone to do so, but I certainly will not avoid killing at all costs. The whole idea of a home defense firearm is to take out the invader as quickly and easily as possible, because the more hurdles you put in front of that goal, the more likely you are to get shot/killed by the invader.

In any case, if I hit someone with a .45 bullet, they're just as dead as they would be if I hit them with buckshot. I just have a higher chance of missing.

Going with the shotgun. This actually helped a lot!

[Typhoid]

If you just splurge on a predator drone, and then employ the team to monitor your block 24/7, I think you'd be a lot safer than if you just got a shotgun. I don't think you're doing everything you can to protect your family here.

I can see it now, some crackhead breaks into your house armed with one of your lamps, and you blow him to pieces with a mossberg. What's that, 20-life for murder? Because you surely can't get away with "I was defending myself from the threatening crackhead who had a lamp in his hand by blowing half of his torso all over my living room" in most cases.



You should get a hummer while you're at it.
Oh, and maybe a mesh-backed baseball hat and a tribal tattoo!


Edit: Besides, buying a gun as a defense instead of buying actual defenses for your house, just seems to me to be a lot more that you want some bad-ass talking point you can always tell people. Like "Hey, I have a gun, you guys. And it's a mossberg!" instead of saying "Yeah, we just got some new alarm system." Because bragging about an alarm system isn't as cool.

[Professor S]

Originally Posted by Bond

I could be wrong on this, but I think that is tricky legal ground. You have a right to defend your home against a threat, but only to a point. I can't see a jury taking kindly to a kid breaking into your house to steal beer and you blow him to pieces.

There is a "no retreat" law in PA, I believe. If someone breaks into my house, I can kill them if they do not exit the home when given the chance.

Again, I'm not talking about stalking someone through my house silently with night-vision goggles. I'm talking about giving fair warning and then if they refuse to back down, should I not assume they expect to attack me?

This is common sense.

[Professor S]

Originally Posted by Typhoid

If you just splurge on a predator drone, and then employ the team to monitor your block 24/7, I think you'd be a lot safer than if you just got a shotgun. I don't think you're doing everything you can to protect your family here.

I can see it now, some crackhead breaks into your house armed with one of your lamps, and you blow him to pieces with a mossberg. What's that, 20-life for murder?

No. Its not. Its self-defense.

Because you surely can't get away with "I was defending myself from the threatening crackhead who had a lamp in his hand by blowing half of his torso all over my living room" in most cases.

Yes you can. Honestly, how much thinking do you think is going on in these cases? Am I taking the time to see if they have a lamp or a gun? In the dark? If the lights are on, that's one thing, but even then the invader takes his life in his own hands.

You should get a hummer while you're at it.
Oh, and maybe a mesh-backed baseball hat and a tribal tattoo!

Oh grow up.

Edit: Besides, buying a gun as a defense instead of buying actual defenses for your house, just seems to me to be a lot more that you want some bad-ass talking point you can always tell people. Like "Hey, I have a gun, you guys. And it's a Mossberg!" instead of saying "Yeah, we just got some new alarm system." Because bragging about an alarm system isn't as cool.

Typh, I've had guns my whole life. Have you ever heard me brag about being a gun owner? No. Lets not be childish about this. The reason I'm attracted to the Mossberg isn't because its in MW2... its because ots the more reliable shotgun on the market, and that's what you want in a home defense weapon.

The funniest part about this argument is how it has degraded. No one seems to want to discuss the points I've made, but instead want to assume I a) want to shoot people or 2) want to be a redneck jackass. Amazing.

People seem more sympathetic to the scumbag invader than the person trying to defend his home. That's sad.

[Vampyr]

Totally with you here - it would be hard to pacify your way out of an armed robbery. I mean, chances are it's never going to happen - if someone breaks into your house it's probably going to happen during the day when no one is at home.

But if someone does break into your house while you're they're - either your car is in the driveway or it's in the middle of the night, they've already considered the fact that they will encounter you, and what they will do when that happens.

I also don't know why we are assuming it's going to be a kid wanting an xbox or a 6 pack. Does that ever happen?

That being said, I think the best line of defense is to pay to have ADT installed, have a sign outside saying you have ADT, and a gun in your bedroom. If you hear someone breaking in, lock your door, sit with a gun aimed at it, and wait for the police to get there.

[Professor S]

Looking at the thread, I think we are all creating situations that are sympathetic to our position. I'm assuming the worst; a serial murderer/rapist in the dead of night with the lights off. Those in opposition seem to be assuming the best of the situation; a strung out unfortunate just trying to get cash for his next hit.

In any case, I think its a mistake to assume the intention of the invader. No one can read minds. So instead, lets list the potential situations and appropriate responses.

Your home is invaded/you think your home has been invaded

1) Call the police

2) Retrieve you firearm from its secure but easily attainable location, turn off safety

3) Turn on as many lights as possible from upstairs

3) Check on loved ones to make sure everyone is secure and it isn't anyone living there who has made you think your home has been invaded.

4) Announce from the top of the stairs that you are aware of the invasion at the top of the stairs, and that you are armed and have called the police. Advise that the invaders are to leave immediately if they don't want to get shot or arrested.

5) Remain at the top of the stairs, shotgun aimed towards the first floor, and wait for the police to arrive.

In most cases, I believe this how the situation would be resolved. The gun gives you the opportunity to cut off points of entry to the upper level without directly confronting your assailant. Without the gun, I feel I would be forced to confront the invader because without a weapon/firearm I'm a sitting duck.

You are confronted by the invader

In this situation I think the biggest factor is whether or not you could get the lights on. If the lights are on, you can see the invader and make split-second judgment calls on intent of action. Without lights, anything could be threatening.

Lights On

Aim the weapon at the invader and yell "Don't move!" If the invader stops, ask him to put his arms in the air and remain there until the police arrive. If the invader makes a break for it, let him go. If the invader makes a move towards you or takes any action you make think could be to pull a weapon: Shoot.

Lights Off

You see a silhouette of a man moving. Yell "Don't move!". If the man stops, turn on the lights and wait for the police to arrive. If the man moves: Shoot. In the dark, I can't honestly say I could safely assume any intent of action, and I am forced to assume the worst.

Do these situations sound reasonable? If not, what would your alternatives be?