Buyng a Gun

[Bond]

Originally Posted by Professor S

No offense Teuth, but I'm going to chalk that up to you not having a family or a home of your own yet. Trust me, if you think someone has broken into your home the last thing your worried about is aiming to injure. If I have to shoot, I want that person to blow to pieces. I can't assume the intent on the intruder and anyone would be stupid to do so.

I could be wrong on this, but I think that is tricky legal ground. You have a right to defend your home against a threat, but only to a point. I can't see a jury taking kindly to a kid breaking into your house to steal beer and you blow him to pieces.

[Professor S]

Originally Posted by Bond

I could be wrong on this, but I think that is tricky legal ground. You have a right to defend your home against a threat, but only to a point. I can't see a jury taking kindly to a kid breaking into your house to steal beer and you blow him to pieces.

There is a "no retreat" law in PA, I believe. If someone breaks into my house, I can kill them if they do not exit the home when given the chance.

Again, I'm not talking about stalking someone through my house silently with night-vision goggles. I'm talking about giving fair warning and then if they refuse to back down, should I not assume they expect to attack me?

This is common sense.

[gekko]

Originally Posted by Professor S

There is a "no retreat" law in PA, I believe. If someone breaks into my house, I can kill them if they do not exit the home when given the chance.

Just curious how that one will look in court.

Judge: "Did you ask the intruder to leave before firing?"
You: "Of course."
Judge: "Did anyone witness you saying this?"
You: "Yep, the intruder did."

Seems hard to prove. Regardless, I'd recommend the shotgun. Your goal is not to find the best weapon to clear a house with, but find the best weapon to get an intruder to leave your house. Shotguns have a psychological factor to them like you wouldn't believe. Simply listening to a pump action shotgun (even empty) will likely be more effective than a much more dangerous weapon. And of course, if you need to shoot, it'll do its job.

[Professor S]

Some interesting points, let me address a few:

1) Practicality of a shotgun. In the event of a home invasion, I think a shotgun is the most practical BECAUSE its over-kill... literally. In the abhorrent event that I am forced to fire my weapon as described in the scenarios above, I am going to shoot to kill. I would rather it over-kill than under-kill, as horrible as that sounds, its reality. As for the mess... well... at least I'd be alive to clean it up.

2) Getting a dog. Typh put it best. I'm getting the gun for the worst case scenario, not some dullard stumbling in drink or high. Dogs aren't bullet proof and if the intruder didn't care that my cars were in the driveway, I doubt he'll care about the alarm system. Although I think I will get an alarm system for the times we aren't home.

I do want to get a dog, though, but it has little to do with home defense.

3) The legality. A stated, pretty much if anyone breaks into your home and you kill them its your word against a dead man's word. You win. Now you can say that's horrible, but I'd rather trust the homeowner than the person breaking in to someone else's house. Bottom line: If you are a home invader, expect that you might be killed.

In fact, there have been cases where a home invader has gotten hurt breaking into someone's house, and then successfully SUED the homeowner. If that's not an incentive to kill invaders instead of injuring them, I don't know what is.

4) Whatever gun I own, I plan to learn how to use and maintain every inch of it, as I have every gun I've ever had. I'll also train my wife how to use it (in fact, I want to get her a small pistol for her purse if she'll carry it) and when the time comes, my kid. I'm convinced that accidental deaths regarding home firearms come from ignorance. Parents try to hide the firearm from the kid, and when the kid finds it, they treat it like a toy instead of a deadly weapon.

When I grew up my dad had M1 Carbine's, revolvers and hunting rifles hanging fom the walls in the basement and I never touched them. I learned very early how deadly they were, and I was given a bucket of toy guns to play with (boys just want to play with guns anyway, it doesn;t matter if they're real or plastic IMO)

And Dylflon, I'd appreciate it if you would stop insinuating that I am somehow bizarre or a killer if I decide to purchase a gun. Nothing I've described here would make you assume I am some nut, so please stop inferring it.

[Vampyr]

I really love animals, and owning a dog would just make me want a gun that much more in order to protect it.

I'm also not saying to get an alarm instead of a gun, but to have both. Better safe than sorry, I say. However unlikely it is someone will break in while your at home, I would rather have the upper hand if it did happen. There's no reason not too, other than the cost of a gun.

A blunt weapon would be alright if the person was unarmed, but what are you going to do if the person breaking in brought a gun? It seems likely if a person is going to invade your house then they aren't the type of person to have qualms about walking around armed and being ready to hurt you or your family.

I mean, bringing a knife to a gunfight just isn't a good idea.

[Teuthida]

Originally Posted by Vampyr

I mean, bringing a knife to a gunfight just isn't a good idea.

That's why you bring a sword.

[Zen]

Originally Posted by Teuthida

That's why you bring a sword.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1qXlFNYoyQg

Wish i could embed

[Dylflon]

Originally Posted by Professor S

And Dylflon, I'd appreciate it if you would stop insinuating that I am somehow bizarre or a killer if I decide to purchase a gun. Nothing I've described here would make you assume I am some nut, so please stop inferring it.

Pretty sure I only insinuated it once, champ.


And what I meant to say the first time was phrased incredibly poorly. My concern is of thinking of shooting to kill over shooting to wound. (This thought was in response to you referring to liquefying an intruder)

But there is no point in pushing this any further because we clearly have very different ideas about home security and merit of gun ownership that we can't mediate through discussion.

Do what helps you sleep at night I suppose. I trust you'll take every precaution so that the gun never comes out of its respective hiding place unless the unthinkable happens.

The reality is that if you take precautions such as an alarm system and a dog who is also pretty much an alarm system, no intruder would bother breaking into your house with those two hurdles in front of him. Even criminals understand risk vs. reward. But I take this idea as a reason for my not wanting to own a handgun.

I know that in America (and parts of Canada) there is a very different ideology surrounding gun ownership, so I'm not going to argue with you or shit on your parade.

[KillerGremlin]

Originally Posted by Dylflon

or shit on your parade.

This might be acceptable during the German portion of the Gay Pride Parade, so there is still hope!

[Professor S]

Originally Posted by Dylflon

Pretty sure I only insinuated it once, champ.

No, twice in fact. The second time is when you said I could be "a normal person" and get a dog. The idea could have easily been made without the added insult, chief.

And what I meant to say the first time was phrased incredibly poorly. My concern is of thinking of shooting to kill over shooting to wound. (This thought was in response to you referring to liquefying an intruder)

Dyflon, they teach law enforcement personnel, professional gunmen, to shoot to kill when threatened and in fact empty their clip just to be sure. You would expect more from an armed citizen when their home has been invaded? I think that's fantasy.

Do what helps you sleep at night I suppose. I trust you'll take every precaution so that the gun never comes out of its respective hiding place unless the unthinkable happens.

That and to practice using it and perform maintenance. But your trust is well laid.

The reality is that if you take precautions such as an alarm system and a dog who is also pretty much an alarm system, no intruder would bother breaking into your house with those two hurdles in front of him. Even criminals understand risk vs. reward. But I take this idea as a reason for my not wanting to own a handgun.

In the end you are trusting someone with such low moral character that they would break into your home to run away if there is a dog or an alarm. I don't have that much trust.

I can see your point of view. You're playing the odds. With a family, I simply refuse to play the odds anymore.

[Typhoid]

they teach law enforcement personnel, professional gunmen, to shoot to kill when threatened and in fact empty their clip just to be sure. You would expect more from an armed citizen when their home has been invaded?

Actually, just to touch on this point, I wouldn't expect nor want the same from a regular citizen that I would a law enforcement officer IE cop.

The reason I wouldn't want the same standards for cops and regular people is because then that gets across the idea that not only are cops normal people they just tell 'shoot to kill' to and push them out on their way, but that also insinuates (roughly) that normal citizens are allowed to empty an entire clip on an intruder in their home, and think 'well, cops can do it'.

Like you said, maybe it's different laws where you are - but you're not allowed to murder another human being (here) unless your life is in jeopardy. And just because someone comes into your house, doesn't mean your life is in jeopardy. In very few cases, yeah - the guy breaking in will totally have a gun or maybe have the intention of raping you and your family. But in a lot of the cases it's just junkies or 'young people' just looking for free shit.

The major problem I have with this idea of yours, is the fact you seem to want to use it. Making mention that if someone steps into your house without permission you're allowed to blast them to pieces, without even looking at the fact if they have a gun or not, or if your life is even in danger so long as you say 'I have a gun'.

Because if a junkie walks into your house and wants to steal a TV to sell for some crack, and you blast him to pieces just because he's there, that my friend is murder. Not self defense.

And this isn't so much me harping on you, moreso the situation of people wanting guns. The cycle will never end. Guns beget more guns.

And Dylan made a good point, criminals do understand risk vs. reward. Sure they have a highly inflated sense of ability, but if you have a loud alarm system - loud enough to wake neighbours - no criminal will stick around.

That's why we arm our cars with loud alarms, and not under-panel flamethrowers that activate automatically when someone touches the handle or jimmies the lock.