Obama Chooses Joe Biden as VP

[Professor S]

Originally Posted by Jonbo298

I guess people just love it when we go to war with anyone. It boggles my mind how they don't see that the cost of war is astronomical and while there seems to be a "post-war" boom in the economy, the crap that is dealt with here in all areas is worse along the way. War should be a last resort, not the first option.

Who was talking about war? There are many ways to deal with Russia beyond violence, such as tossing their asses out of the WTO, NATO and the UN, sanctioning them until it hurts and isolating them until they decide to work with the rest of the world. Or you can do what the rest of the world is currently doing, and that is cowering our of fear Russia will cut off the oil.

Russia showed a while ago it has no respect for their own democracy with their staged election, which more of a coronation of Czar Putin, and now they have proven they have no respect for the choice of other people to choose their own leadership. At what point should the world assert itself when faced with a burgeoning autocracy with an eye for expansion via military action and a penchant for political assassination? After a world war is inevitable?

For the record, McCain never once mentioned going to war with Russia. There is a difference between being assertive and war-mongering.[/quote]

[Jonbo298]

I'll just accept defeat in this forum and let the Republicans win.

[Bond]

I think the issue that we run into here is that our forum members who consider themselves Democrats and/or of liberal mindsets are used to discussing politics with right-wing evangelicals and neo-cons.

Strangler and myself (correct me if I'm wrong, Professor), are of more liberal Republican or centrist mindsets. So, sometimes we argue for the same viewpoint, but we go about it very differently than the right-wing crazies.

[Jonbo298]

Eh, at any rate, I don't know what I'm talking about so I'll just leave out.

[Professor S]

Originally Posted by Bond

I think the issue that we run into here is that our forum members who consider themselves Democrats and/or of liberal mindsets are used to discussing politics with right-wing evangelicals and neo-cons.

Strangler and myself (correct me if I'm wrong, Professor), are of more liberal Republican or centrist mindsets. So, sometimes we argue for the same viewpoint, but we go about it very differently than the right-wing crazies.

To boil my veiwpoints down:

I'm a fiscally conservative

Socially moderate, even leaning to the left except for abortion where I am formly in the middle

Diplomatically, I believe in Teddy Roosevelt's stance: Speak softly, but carry a big stick. I think that holds true for both diplomacy and the military.

But when it comes to politics, I can remove myself and enjoy the spectacle. Presidential elections are almost like sport to me. Its just fun watching everything develop.

[KillerGremlin]

I masturbate a lot. If Obama wins it will be due to him portraying McCain as a war monger and instilling a false security in the American public that the Democrats will resolve the Iraq situation. I just wonder if America will be left with a bitter taste (towards the Dems) when Obama fails to remove all the troops from Iraq and increases spending to send more troops to Afghanistan to get those dirty terrorists. Also, Iran.

Anyway, this election is boiling down to a Douche vs. a Turd.

[TheGame]

Originally Posted by KillerGremlin

I masturbate a lot. If Obama wins it will be due to him portraying McCain as a war monger and instilling a false security in the American public that the Democrats will resolve the Iraq situation.

Yup, and if Mccain wins its because he convinces people that Obama is too inexperienced to be president and that Obama is really going to make the over seas situation worse somehow. Though I'm pretty sure even at this point 90+% of people are already sure who they're going to vote for no matter what is said or done.

I just wonder if America will be left with a bitter taste (towards the Dems) when Obama fails to remove all the troops from Iraq and increases spending to send more troops to Afghanistan to get those dirty terrorists. Also, Iran.

Pretty much, just how people are left with that bitter taste towards bush now because he failed to remove the troops and is putting so much money into the war. Though I think no matter what happens, it'd be easy to just blame everthing on Bush if Obama or Mccain fail to find a resolution and remove us from Iraq.

[KillerGremlin]

Originally Posted by TheGame

Yup, and if Mccain wins its because he convinces people that Obama is too inexperienced to be president and that Obama is really going to make the over seas situation worse somehow. Though I'm pretty sure even at this point 90+% of people are already sure who they're going to vote for no matter what is said or done.

I actually think McCain will win the vote of the religious folks, the working class, and people over 40. It's going to be a close race either way....at least I think so. It wouldn't surprise me if it's 49%/51% type dealy.

Originally Posted by TheGame

Pretty much, just how people are left with that bitter taste towards bush now because he failed to remove the troops and is putting so much money into the war. Though I think no matter what happens, it'd be easy to just blame everthing on Bush if Obama or Mccain fail to find a resolution and remove us from Iraq.

There is no resolution to "remove us from Iraq." That is THE revolution. We are going to be there until we stabilize the region, otherwise someone will just rise to the position that Saddam once had and we will be back in Iraq at some point in the distant future.

I wish Obama and McCain would both be more up front about this. Again, I think a lot of voters (especially the 20s age group) are under the impression that Obama is going to remove the United States from Iraq. It ain't happening.

[Professor S]

Originally Posted by KillerGremlin

I actually think McCain will win the vote of the religious folks, the working class, and people over 40. It's going to be a close race either way....at least I think so. It wouldn't surprise me if it's 49%/51% type dealy.

Thats the way I see it, too. Its going to be too close to call, and I'll hav a case of beer and a bowl of peanuts at the ready 11/4-11/5. I love this shit.

There is no resolution to "remove us from Iraq." That is THE revolution. We are going to be there until we stabilize the region, otherwise someone will just rise to the position that Saddam once had and we will be back in Iraq at some point in the distant future.

I wish Obama and McCain would both be more up front about this. Again, I think a lot of voters (especially the 20s age group) are under the impression that Obama is going to remove the United States from Iraq. It ain't happening.

I agree, but I don;t see how McCain can be more upfront about it. He has said we'll be there until the job is done. I'm calling 2010. You heard it here first, folks.

[TheGame]

I actually think McCain will win the vote of the religious folks, the working class, and people over 40. It's going to be a close race either way....at least I think so. It wouldn't surprise me if it's 49%/51% type dealy.

I disagree with that. :P Being a religious person myself and being surrounded by a lot of them, I cantell you for sure when the 2004 election and even the 2000 election was around they did openly support Bush more. But as it stands right now I see no open support for Mccain among the religious comunity, but I see Obama's name tossed around more like Bush's was.

As for the "working class" I'm not sure how you draw a line there. As for people over 40, that's the group that's more split on the issue from what I can see. I could see it going 50/50 for people over 40, or if Mccain supportersa re just quiet, then I could see Mccain taking that group.

Also, when I said 90% of the people know who theyre going to vote for already, I mean that right now Obama or Mccain would be hard pressed to change some people's minds. The people who are most likely still on the fence are hillary supporters, and if they've been following things for the last month they're likely all Obama supporters now, or they were never real hillary supporters to begin with.

Maybe its just me though, or maybe its just the schools I'm surrounded by, or the job I work for, or the church I attend. Maybe just the people I know online and offline, or just my family or the state I'm from. But to me, this doesn't look like it's going to be a close election again.

I think the thing that is killing Mccain is his open support for Bush.

[Vampyr]

Somehow McCain is creating this image that he is a down to earth working class citizen himself.

I'm not sure who's buying that. From everything I've read about him and from every time I've heard him speak, he seems to be one of the most out of touch people I've ever seen.

[Professor S]

Originally Posted by Vampyr

Somehow McCain is creating this image that he is a down to earth working class citizen himself.

I'm not sure who's buying that. From everything I've read about him and from every time I've heard him speak, he seems to be one of the most out of touch people I've ever seen.

Can you give examples?

[Vampyr]

Originally Posted by Professor S

Can you give examples?

First of all, John McCain is immensely wealthy. I don't have any problems with that, I would like to be too, but he downplays that all the time, trying to make himself seem more rugged and blue collared. I mean, all his commercials are calling him the "The original maverick." What does that even mean? Nearly every speech he's given in Kentucky was at a National Rifle Association meeting. That's laughable.

When asked how many houses he owned, he responded "I'll have to have my staff get back to you."

When asked if he thought it was unfair that health insurance companies covered viagra and not birth control, he sat there with a very pained expression on his face for about 15 seconds, before saying, "I don't know enough about that to answer you" or something to that effect.

McCain once stated that there had been great economic growth during the 8 years Bush has been in office, stating there had been "great progress economically over that period of time." I guess someone told him the mistake he made, because on the next day he turned around and said "American's are hurting badly, they're not better off than they were 8 years ago."

I don't think he's in touch with regular people at all. And it's not just those things, it's the way he acts and the things he does. The other day I saw a video of him giving a speech somewhere, and he introduced one of his supporters to talk...some Puerto Rican rapper named Daddy Yankee. I mean, could that be any more obviously an attempt to get what he considers to be the "young and cool" crowd to like him? Maybe if Puerto Ricans could vote it would have been an alright thing to do.

And now his VP pick. Mostly just a ploy to draw in women voters. You complain about Obama's lack of experience all the time, and here McCain chooses someone who has been a governer for two years, not even any experience with the federal government. If McCain dies (and he's getting kind of old, it could happen) would you want her to be our president?

[Professor S]

Originally Posted by Vampyr

First of all, John McCain is immensely wealthy. I don't have any problems with that, I would like to be too, but he downplays that all the time, trying to make himself seem more rugged and blue collared. I mean, all his commercials are calling him the "The original maverick." What does that even mean? Nearly every speech he's given in Kentucky was at a National Rifle Association meeting. That's laughable.

Well honestly, in today's day and age being a supporter of the NRA is maverick. Moreover, he has a long history of bucking his own party to achieve goals that he thought were best for the nation, recently pushing for reductions in spending since 2000 and campaign finance reform (even though that turned out to be a bit of a mess).

As for him being rich, well, really his wife is rich and he went along for the ride. he enetred politics pretty much right out of the Hanoi Hilton.

When asked how many houses he owned, he responded "I'll have to have my staff get back to you."

Do you have any other Obama ads you'd like to repeat? Maybe he shiould be compaining about the price of arugula at whiole foods, like Obama did? And in the end, biothg arguments are meaningless. Honestly, who cares who knows owns what? Obama is rich as shit too. So what? That has npothing to do with whether or not someone is in touch.

When asked if he thought it was unfair that health insurance companies covered viagra and not birth control, he sat there with a very pained expression on his face for about 15 seconds, before saying, "I don't know enough about that to answer you" or something to that effect.

The knee jerk Republican reaction reaction would be to go all birth control nazi on the reporter. Instead, he admitted to not knowing something on a subject, which is honorable especially when confronted with a loaded question like that. Moreover, insurance compoanies can cover whatever they like. And consumers can choose accordingly.

McCain once stated that there had been great economic growth during the 8 years Bush has been in office, stating there had been "great progress economically over that period of time." I guess someone told him the mistake he made, because on the next day he turned around and said "American's are hurting badly, they're not better off than they were 8 years ago."

Both statements are correct. There was great economic growth, especially after 9/11 when everything plummeted. Now its taken a downturn, and is not a great as it was one or two years ago or in 2000, which techinically is 8 years ago. 2001? We're MUCH better now.

And I do take exception to the wording in McCain's second statement, as I think he pandered a bit. The economy isn't as bad as everyone would have you believe, and the BBC even reported that it went up over 3% last quarter. The Anmerican idea of success and "poverty" is so skewed by our affluence it's insane. It used to be success was a car in every driveway... now its a car in every three-car garage, a plasma screen TV in every room, and meanwhile the kids in these families are relying on grants and government loans to go to college.

I grew up knowing what it was like to be in a successful and poor family. In the 80's my dad had a successful, but small, construction company. When the recession hit, he barely worked for almost 2 years and struggled just to keep his business afloat. I remember weeks of tuna casserole for lunch and dinner. I also remember steak and eggs for breakfast in years earlier and in the mid-late 90's and my dad being lucky enough in 2001 to have a contractual job with a private school when times got tough again.

Times aren't that tough right now, we're just doing as well as we were before and we have to make adjustments. Its not the democrats or republicans who are responsible... its the economy... its done it before and MUCH worse and it will do it again. And the sky certainly isn't falling and no amount of raised taxes to the rich will help, it will only inspire the rich to hide their money in untaxable trusts and not invest it back in their businesses, which can only hurt.

And in my experience, demonizing business and the rich never made any poor person any richer. Does it make them feel better? Sure, I guess and I find that sad. And it defeinitely gets people elected.

I don't think he's in touch with regular people at all. And it's not just those things, it's the way he acts and the things he does. The other day I saw a video of him giving a speech somewhere, and he introduced one of his supporters to talk...some Puerto Rican rapper named Daddy Yankee. I mean, could that be any more obviously an attempt to get what he considers to be the "young and cool" crowd to like him? Maybe if Puerto Ricans could vote it would have been an alright thing to do.

And Obama doesn't do the same thing? Remember Luda's rap against Hillary? Oh please... both are guilty of this so please don't point it out only when it is politically expedient for your candidate.

And now his VP pick. Mostly just a ploy to draw in women voters. You complain about Obama's lack of experience all the time, and here McCain chooses someone who has been a governer for two years, not even any experience with the federal government. If McCain dies (and he's getting kind of old, it could happen) would you want her to be our president?

Palin was on the short list back when Hillary was still winning the primary, so your pandering point is a non-issue. For this arument? She has a son in the Iraq war and I believe she's the wife of a firefighter. +1 for in-touchness for McCain.

As for her experience, I'll admit I am concerned about it, especially considering McCain's age and her lack of pretty much any international experience. She would not have been my first choice. I always liked the governor of Lousiana, Bobbty Jindal.

[Bond]

Originally Posted by Vampyr

First of all, John McCain is immensely wealthy. I don't have any problems with that, I would like to be too, but he downplays that all the time, trying to make himself seem more rugged and blue collared. I mean, all his commercials are calling him the "The original maverick." What does that even mean? Nearly every speech he's given in Kentucky was at a National Rifle Association meeting. That's laughable.

Just a quick clarification: McCain is not wealthy. His wife inherited a beer bottling company. That's where the money comes from.

Sometimes I wish these threads wouldn't get so lengthy so quickly. It's so hard to jump in after a few pages and reply to everything.