how do you feel about the nwo angle?

[Professor S]

Chris, re-watch the tape of Hogan's promo. he put much more feeling in the first part where he thanks the audience and the WWF, than the second part.

There is nothing wrong with being a mark. But it clouds your judgement in this matter.

Flair WAS the first HEEL to get face pops. if you want to argue that point go ask the guys over at 1werstling.com, they know a lot more than we do about wrestling and they wrote a whole article about how he INVENTED the likeable heel. He got face popes as a heel back in the early eighties. So I hope YOU were kidding.

Yes, Hogan win the red and yellow would draw and make big money, but NOT in the long term. Thats a hot shot angle at best.

You are right about RVD, but if Raven went out and did the thumb gimmick, would anyone chant RVD? No. But it Raven used a knife edge chop you're damn sure the whole crowd would yell "WHOOO!!"

Flair is just as much of a legend as Hogan ever was, it just depends on what part of the country you're in. They were in Chicago. Hogan came up in the mid-west in the AWA. Naturally he'd get a huge pop. Go down to the Carolina's and see what happens with Flair and Hogan comapratively. If you want to know why he has put The Rock up against Hogan insyead of Flair, just look at the entire Invasion angle. Vince has done nothing but BURY pretty much everything that has to do with WCW. Flair is WCW, but Hogan is still said in the same breath as the WWF. Vince feels more comfortable with Hogan up there while he books himself on the same level as Flair. Thats rediculous. Plus Hogan is bigger and younger than Flair, so it makes more sense realistically.

"I guess that's why they were chanting "ROCKY SUCKS!" and bowing down to Hogan, not to mention chanting for Hogan before any match was made."

That is one of the worst exagerrations I've heard in a long time. A lot of fans chanted for Hogan, but I only saw a HANDFUL of fans bowing. And by NO MEANS was the vast majority of fans there chanting for Hogan as you say. Check the tape. it goes back and forth.

As for the entire scrowd chanting "Rocky Sucks", Its funny that I didn't hear ONE "Rocky Sucks" chant. I heard a lot of "Rocky" and a lot of "Hogan", but if their were any "Rocky Sucks" chants the "sucks" parts were added by the Hogan fans. You're stretching there.

Hogan's promo was not fantastic by any means, and if you think it was you are acting foolish. Youb are marking out and not thinking straight. The promo was an average one at best, he had to mention Michael Jordan just to get a semi-heated reaction. Thats called cheap heat. And I stand by my assertion that he deosn't want to be a heel. His body language screamed face all night. I will stand by this to the end.

"They [NWO] didn't get too big of a reaction because they didn't do much [at the PPV]. On Raw, Hogan made his interview, they kicked the hell outta the Rock, Austin called them out, etc. And since when does it matter where they are? I guess Flair's pop in the Carolina's or any place he wrestled in earlier shouldn't count either."

They didn't get that big of a reaction because they were in Jersey, the North East isn't going to mark out for the NWO without good reason. If that debut hasd been in Chicago, the Hoganchants would have been defeaning. As I said earlier, the mid-west is Hogan country, so if yo want to count Hogan's pop last night, Flair's in the Carolina's and Virginia does too.

I never said that Flair was bigger, but he is as big. No, I'll give Hogan a bigger star status because he has more of a name in Japan, but in the US they're even.

But I'm also not saying that Flair SHOULD be put back in the ring, his time is DONE too. the only difference is, I think he realizes it. Sure he'll wrestle the occasional match, but for all intents and purposes, he is retired.

And no, I am not some smark who just cares about workrate. If thats all I cared about i wouldn't watch the WWF at all. I like The Rock even though his workrate is as low as Hogan's.

I'm trying to speak realistically here. Hogan is nostalgia. Nostalgia does not last. The Ultimate Warrior's comeback did not last. Piper's comeback did not last. Savage just steadily went downhill, even though he positioned himself up top repeatedly. Anytime ANY of these men got big reactions was when they eithert revisited the past, made a comeback, or left and then made a re-comeback. Each time the comebacks did not last.

That being said, will Hogan make Vince money? Yes, but not in the long term. Once the nostalgia wears off, the crowd will grow bored. Hogan's time as top dog is DONE. No amount of hoping will change that.

But thats just my opinion, I could be wrong

But I doubt it

[nWoCHRISnWo]

The way you made it sound the first time was that Flair was the first heel to ever get cheered at all, by like one person. Then you made it more clear and I realized it wouldn't have made much sense if you ment what I thought, so no problem there. But that was in the past, and Hogan is just simply more popular now in the average city.

"Flair is just as much of a legend as Hogan ever was, it just depends on what part of the country you're in"

It depends on how you define "legend" really. But ask your grandma who Ric Flair is. Then ask your grandma who Hulk Hogan is. Do this to a million other grandma's and I'm pretty confident that the majority will know who Hogan is and not know who Flair is. When people say wrestling, people think Hogan.

And no, not everyone was bowing, but as for them cheering "Hogan! Hogan!" that was as clear as anything. Same as the "Rocky sucks! Rocky sucks!" Those two were very real.

"Hogan's promo was not fantastic by any means, and if you think it was you are acting foolish. Youb are marking out and not thinking straight."

For Raw standards, that promo was that damn good, and the majority of the people on various message boards that I go to agree with me. It's all an opinion thing pretty much, and more people have the opinion that is was great than not I think.

As for the comebacks you named, Hogan is the biggest name in professional wrestling. That alone gives him a huge advantage over the guys you named. And booking will have a lot to do with this, if this fails it will NOT be Hogan's fault. Whether it was carrying the WWF or carrying the WCW, he has what it takes to not drop the ball and if (that's a big if) Vince uses him right, it could last a while. Judging (which you can't really judge from one show though...) by Raw, they're playing this angle up not too bad I think you'll agree, and any angle played right will last a while.

As for if Hogan will last, that depends on if you mean his face comeback or just plain him if that makes sense. He still has big money matches with Vince, Austin, The Rock of course, Flair, etc. and these feuds could keep him around for another two years.

[Matusha]

I agree with Chris.Hogan was like the most popular wrestler in the 80's and made the WWF #1.He is the reason why wrestling is the big thing it is today.

[Professor S]

I will give you Hogan as being bigger becasue he is a household name among non-wrestling fans. That is true.

But the whoile crowd WAS NOT cheering for Hogan. THAT was obvious. As I said The "ROCKY" and "HOGAN" chants alternated. I have re-watched my tape twice now at that point and anything else you want to hear, it is you wanting to hear it. Thats it. No argument there. The crowd was split. You should be happy with that as a Hogan fan.

As for if Hogan fails, it won't be Hogan's fault, thats REDICULOUS. Hogan is OLD. O....L....D.... OLD. He does identify with today's younger fan. He has slowed down considerably in the ring, not that he was ever like lightning or anything to begin with, so no one will probably notice. It will take EXTRA booking to keep his storylines interesting.


How long before Rocky starts humiliating him on the stick? How long before all the bald jokes start coming out?

"As for the comebacks you named, Hogan is the biggest name in professional wrestling. That alone gives him a huge advantage over the guys you named. And booking will have a lot to do with this, if this fails it will NOT be Hogan's fault. Whether it was carrying the WWF or carrying the WCW, he has what it takes to not drop the ball and if (that's a big if) Vince uses him right, it could last a while. Judging (which you can't really judge from one show though...) by Raw, they're playing this angle up not too bad I think you'll agree, and any angle played right will last a while."

This angle will last to Wrestlemania. A little further with excellent booking. I do not agree that it will last. Nostalgia is nostalgia, no matter how big the name. As for Hogan being the biggest star ever in wrestling, that in its self is arguable. Stone Cold on average drew bigger houses, bigger ratings and did this over a longer period of time than Hogan when he was the top dog in the eighties. Plus, Stone Cold did this AFTER the mass exodus from WWF and the steroid scandal, so he basically rebuilt the comany, and didn't just ride on Hogan's success in the WWF. But I'll give you that Hogan is a bigger star to keep you from having a coronary.

Plus, you say that Piper wasn't as big a name as Hogan, but I believe that Piper was the FACE in their last feud. There is no argument there either.

I think Hogan can last 2 more years, maybe more, but NOT in the title picture. I thought thats what you were trying to say, that he should be feuding with stars like The Rock the whole time. People won't buy it. He has one title match in him at most, and he has a very good chance of humiliating himself in there if he gets in with a younger guy. Hell, even I would like to see him in a title match again. They should put the title on Triple H and then give him the shot, since Triple H has slowed down since the quad tear. But if he goes over clean to ONE top WWF star, Vince will be making a HUGE mistake. The locker room is already not happy that they're in the WWF in the first place.

If the WWF pushes the NWO as dominant wrestlers over their hgome grown talent, you will have the same problem in the WWF that you had in WCW, and there really will be poison injected into the WWF.

But it looks like we're not going to agree on this, no lets agree to disagree. My fingers are getting tired.

[BigJustinW]

I'm not paying close attention to what you are arguing about but lets look at the facts...

When Hogan was in the WWF, it was the biggest wrestling company in the world...

When Hogan was with the WCW it was the biggest wrestling company in the world...

When Hogan left the WWF it went down hill

When Hogan stopped wrestling in the WCW it went down hill

Now hogan is back in the WWF... if the ratings get better, Hogan was and still is the most popular wrestler ever.

[Matusha]

I have 1 question.What the hell is dblns.?And why is mine -9999999?

[Professor S]

Fact, the WWF was the biggest it ever was without Hulf Hogan.

Fact, when Hogan left the WWF the ratings were already going down. Why do you think Vince tried to pass the torch to the Ultimate Warrior.

Fact, Hogan attached himself to the NWO angle becasue he saw it going places and didn't want to be left behind. I credit Hall and Nash more with the success of the NWO than Hogan. The Outsiders are what made the NWO cool.

Fact, when Hogan stopped wrestling for the WCW it was already going downhill worse than it was going downhill in the WWF when he left.

Will the ratings go up? Yeah, but probably only a little. I don't expect a huge increase in gates or PPV buys. I even expect the PPV buytrate to go down soon, but that has no refection on Hogan. The WWF is raising prices.

[nWoCHRISnWo]

Agreed to agree to disagree, but I must say I think you're definitely wrong on one point.

Hogan meant more to the nWo than the Outsiders ever did. Without Hogan, nWo wouldn't have been arguably the best angle in history.

Oh yeah, and the Rock is great on the mic, but I think you're not giving Hogan enough credit there. And if he fails, Hall's always there, and that guy can make people look like fools.

Andddd I don't mean Hogan will fight for the title, but I do mean he'll fight the top level main event guys for as long as I previously stated.

[Professor S]

I have to argue with you on the Hogan/NWO thing. It was reported by many people backstage at WCW at the time that Hogan saw the NWO going places, and then jumped on the bandwagon before it left him behind.

And Hall can humiliate people on the stick, if he stays sober. And from the looks of the beer belly he's got he hasn't been laying off the sauce. I hope the rumors of him straightening up in japan are true though, because at one time he was one of the best on the mic and in the ring.

[BigJustinW]

Originally posted by The Strangler
Fact, the WWF was the biggest it ever was without Hulf Hogan.

Before Hogan, WWF was crap

Fact, when Hogan left the WWF the ratings were already going down. Why do you think Vince tried to pass the torch to the Ultimate Warrior.

Yeah... but WCW wasn't even in the (Television) Pic yet... WWF was still the biggest...

Then Hollywood Hogan premered on WCW (even before nWo came) and WCW started kicking WWF's ass.

Fact, Hogan attached himself to the NWO angle becasue he saw it going places and didn't want to be left behind. I credit Hall and Nash more with the success of the NWO than Hogan. The Outsiders are what made the NWO cool.

Nash and Hall were a Tag team, Hogan is a world championship contender, nWo would have never got as big as is now if it wasn't for Hogan joning... Remember when Hogan was a heel, and Goldberg beat him on Nitro? Did you see how the crowd reacted? They would never get that pissed if Hall and Nash lost.

Fact, when Hogan stopped wrestling for the WCW it was already going downhill worse than it was going downhill in the WWF when he left.

Hogans last visit to the WCW, the ratings were still great... Remember Nash beating Goldberg, and the touch of death by Hogan to Nash? That was all in Hogan's last WCW return, when he left is when WCW went to hell.

Will the ratings go up? Yeah, but probably only a little. I don't expect a huge increase in gates or PPV buys. I even expect the PPV buytrate to go down soon, but that has no refection on Hogan. The WWF is raising prices.

Yeah, wrestlemainia is coming, and you expect the PPV buys to go down... that makes perfect sense.

[Professor S]

Ok, I'm done arguing with you guys because you make up things and then say they are facts. I could go to 1wrestling and research the ratings archives to show you how wrong you are, but its not worth the effort, you'll just make up more excuses. If being a Hogan fan means you can't think rationally or with logic, then you guys go ahead and keep on believeing whatever you want to believe.

As for buyrates, I wasn't including Wrestlemania. Thats like averaging NFL ratings while including the Superbowl. Expect the PPV buyrates to go down after Wrestlemania when the WWF jacks up the prices. I know I won't be ordering them anymore.

[nWoCHRISnWo]

I'm making up stuff?

You'll come back to argue. They always do.

Just because Hogan was in the nWo after Hall and Nash doesn't mean he wasn't as important. Sure nWo was going places, but saying Hall and Nash meant more than Hogan, THAT is making stuff up.

"Fact, the WWF was the biggest it ever was without Hulf Hogan."

So a whole company's profits are directly dependant on one man? The WWF with Austin, Rock, or anyone after Hogan simply would not have been possible without Hogan in the first place. Do you honestly thing that WWF would have been even close to as big as it was without Hogan? Wrestlemania would have never been what it was in the first place, therefore WWF would have never been what it is now. Other stars may have helped the WWF's evolving, but noth compared to Hogan.

Fact is that Hogan MADE WWF and gave it the chance to be what it is now, and Hogan WAS WCW when WCW was competiting with (and beating) the WWF.

And I didn't wanna bring it up, but I never said the whole crowd was chanting for Hogan, I said it was alternating just as you said. You could clearly hear the chants of "Hogan!" though, and that's something not short of spectacular. Nobody else in wrestling can get that kind of ovation, in mark city or anywhere, and there are a lot of Rock marks by the way...

[Matusha]

justin is wrong.When Hogan first came around July it didn't immediately start kicking WWF's ass. In fact it was better before Hogan came.

[Bizzyman]

no way out was crap.......

whoever said hall can cover for hogan, is wrong, hall is worse than hogan. nash had to keep his hands up just in case hall couldnt pull off the razors edge. it was horrible. and i cant even look at hogans droopy and wrinkly face. face it,he nor none of these performers could pull off 30 minutes with the rock, which is a good length main event.

and havent u wondered why they arent using kevin nash yet? its cuz of hall. they wanna have a back up in case hall does something crazy or gets drunk and cant perform.

dont get me wrong, hall used to be my favorite wrestler. but now hes just crap. he looks like an old man trying to be cool, same with nash and hogan.

the crowd is going to start being less and less intrested, especially with the way they are "destroying" and then apologizing. why did they apologize? that must of been some of the worst booking ive ever seen. and that truck running into the rock? how the hell is he suppose to be fully healed by wrestlemania? and community service for attempted murder? o yeah, and im shane mcmahon...

[nWoCHRISnWo]

Bizzyman, I agree with a lot of what you said, but that's Vince's fault, not nWo's. Anyone can screw up an angle, it doesn't mean it's the wrestlers who are involved are at fault. After Smackdown, it makes me wonder why Vince even brought in the nWo. If he wanted to bring in three guys to look like pansies, he should have got three cheaper guys.

And I don't believe I said Hall could cover up for Hogan in the ring, I said Hall was also great on the mic.

And yeah, WWF doesn't trust Hall, but does that take away from his wrestling persona? If we were judging all wrestlers by their personal lives, then Shawn Michaels, Triple H, Flair, etc. would be considered ****ty wrestlers.