Nintendo at E3 2011 - Page 4

Vampyr · 06-07-2011, 10:59 PM

Okay, I finally got around to watching the conference.

Holy crap, I can't believe some people were complaining and not impressed by this. I think that my statement that Nintendo would dominate Sony and Microsoft has absolutely come true.

They showed so much footage of what the controller/console could do. The ability for the console to stream the content to the controller screen was enough alone to blow me away - but there were so many other ways that they could interact. Then they ran through all the promised third party games, and announced a Smash Bros for 3DS & Wii U...

Yeah, the Nintendo conference made this E3 not suck. I'm ready to buy this thing right now.

edit: That video looks great. I can think of so many great uses for the controller screen. It looks like the guy in the video used it as a heli-cam to check out the enemies location before moving in. Could also use it to navigate a robot bomb.

Storm Eagle · 06-07-2011, 11:05 PM

So the new Nintendo system will be called the Wii U. I'll have to agree that it's not the best name in the world, but of course, as long as it has games that I'd want, I won't mind having one. Though I must say, that controller is a behemoth. The lack of backwards compatibility for GameCube games isn't really a problem for me though (if it does lack that kind of backwards compatibility), since I still have my GameCube hooked up, and that's all because I have a Game Boy Player.

I have to admit though, that I'm a bit concerned about Nintendo jumping right into the next generation before their competitors. I think this is more or less a first for them. They usually wait for their competitors to make the first move, and then put out a new system later that's somewhat of an improvement over its predecessor(s). They might end up pushing back the release of the Wii U from 2012, and I think I'd actually be okay with that.

The Legend of Zelda: Skyward Sword is now being pushed towards a holiday release for this year. Fine with me. The less I punish my wallet, the better. Though I hope it doesn't get pushed back farther than that, or just saved for a Wii U release.

So, one of the big surprises for the 25th anniversary of The Legend of Zelda is a free soundtrack CD that I can only get by registering a copy of Ocarina of Time 3D, but I can just pass on that. I've already imported the Ocarina of Time (N64 of course) soundtrack from Japan, and it's a complete soundtrack, which I'm concerned the free one probably won't be. Plus I still don't have a 3DS, nor do I see myself having one any time this year. Though I am interested in that CD based on the Zelda 25th Anniversary symphony concerts which was said to be released in conjunction with Skyward Sword. At least I've got the system to play that (I think, I hope).

gekko · 06-07-2011, 11:39 PM

I'd actually be surprised if there isn't backwards compatibility with the Gamecube. The Wii basically is the Gamecube in a new box, which is why it could do backwards compatibility on hardware. If the Wii U is backwards compatible with the Wii, I see no reason why it shouldn't support the Gamecube as well, unless they do software emulation.

In all honesty, the backwards compatibility concerns me that the hardware in this thing really is pretty lackluster. Also not announcing the specs makes me think they are hiding something, and I fully expect they are.

Overall, not impressed at all with the Wii U at the moment.

Vampyr · 06-08-2011, 09:34 AM

The gameplay that's being shown looks good enough for me. If I can play Zelda, Mario, etc, and have it look like that, I'll be satisfied. As long as it's hitting that HD resolution.

I imagine the next generation of consoles is going to be much like this one for me: get the Wii U and the next Xbox. Only this time I think I'm actually going to play the Wii.

edit: It looks like the Wii U will not have upscaling. Damn.

Blix · 06-08-2011, 10:19 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Vampyr

The gameplay that's being shown looks good enough for me. If I can play Zelda, Mario, etc, and have it look like that, I'll be satisfied. As long as it's hitting that HD resolution.

I imagine the next generation of consoles is going to be much like this one for me: get the Wii U and the next Xbox. Only this time I think I'm actually going to play the Wii.

edit: It looks like the Wii U will not have upscaling. Damn.

Yeah, that was disappointing. I was really looking forward to that as I wanted to see some of the current games running in 1080. I hope they change that before it comes out.

Bond · 06-08-2011, 01:35 PM

Does anyone have a theory as to why the new console won't upscale? Is it a technically difficult task to perform?

Vampyr · 06-08-2011, 01:51 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bond

Does anyone have a theory as to why the new console won't upscale? Is it a technically difficult task to perform?

I'm no expert, but I thought the process of upscaling was a simple algorithm of taking two pixels and averaging them out and putting another pixel in between.

The really cynical side of me wants to say that it's because they want to resell HD versions of old Wii games. >_>

BreakABone · 06-08-2011, 02:03 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Vampyr

I'm no expert, but I thought the process of upscaling was a simple algorithm of taking two pixels and averaging them out and putting another pixel in between.

The really cynical side of me wants to say that it's because they want to resell HD versions of old Wii games. >_>

Being BC didn't stop em from re-selling Pikmin and other games.

And sadly HD remakes seem to be the in-thing now. I think the movement is awful, but people get excited for it. Meh

Jason1 · 06-08-2011, 10:14 PM

I am pretty impressed with everything overall. Just the fact that nintendo is finally going HD is great, although I guess they pretty much have to now. Zelda demo looks impressive. And I am liking how skyward sword seems to be shaping up also.

gekko · 06-08-2011, 10:31 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Vampyr

I'm no expert, but I thought the process of upscaling was a simple algorithm of taking two pixels and averaging them out and putting another pixel in between.

The really cynical side of me wants to say that it's because they want to resell HD versions of old Wii games. >_>

That is the simplest algorithm (once extended to 2D), but the ones actually used are a bit more complicated. But most likely they would upscale in hardware, and not software.

But in all reality, if you're playing on a fixed-resolution display (any non-CRT basically), your TV will be upscaling the image anyway. Why it's not doing it is beyond me, but it's not like an upscaled Wii game is going to magically look better.

Angrist · 06-09-2011, 01:25 AM

What about those emulated Wii games that look 2x better?

gekko · 06-09-2011, 01:57 AM

I didn't even know there was a Wii emulator. But it doesn't really matter. It's impossible, now, and forever in the future, to upscale an image and make it "better".

Take the example of a 4x4 square, make it a black and white checkerboard. To reduce that down to a single pixel you would all expect the colors to average out to some shade of gray. Now let's go the other way, start with a single gray pixel and upscale it to 4x4. What does it look like? Is it four gray pixels? Our black and white checkerboard? Any other of the many combinations of 4 pixels which average to the exact same color? It's impossible to tell.

Now, I won't say there aren't some really good ways to guess. Photoshop CS5 has a fantastic tool which can do just that, but it's still a complete guess. Those tend to take a much larger area and assume things. For example, if the entire bottom of the image is covered in this green stuff, then maybe the big hole you are trying to fill should contain similar shades and patterns, etc. The problem is these all break down in certain cases, and there is no generic algorithm that works perfectly.

The problem is when you go up in resolution you should increase the detail, and while you can guess at the missing colors, you can never add the detail which would be missing. If there was a human arm, you may be able to guess at the proper skin tone in the missing pixels, but you will never get the pores, or the hairs. Or think about all the small detail which would be seen in a 1080p picture of concrete, you maybe can match color, but going from 640x480 to 1920x1080 is never going to get you that detail, no matter how hard you try.

Now, my best guess as to why the Wii emulator looks better is post-processing of the scene. I would assume they perform some form of aliasing to reduce the jaggies on the image and make everything look smoother. Besides, your eyes can play tricks on you. It's the reason why screens in retail are so bright, because people think they look better and it sells TVs. It's the same reason why volume is used to sell speakers, because if they are the loudest in the store, they must be the best. Look at the images closely and you will most likely they are the exact same, if not a bit smoother (AA as I said before). But no matter how hard you try, you can't add detail.

thatmariolover · 06-09-2011, 12:52 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by gekko

I didn't even know there was a Wii emulator. But it doesn't really matter. It's impossible, now, and forever in the future, to upscale an image and make it "better".

Take the example of a 4x4 square, make it a black and white checkerboard. To reduce that down to a single pixel you would all expect the colors to average out to some shade of gray. Now let's go the other way, start with a single gray pixel and upscale it to 4x4. What does it look like? Is it four gray pixels? Our black and white checkerboard? Any other of the many combinations of 4 pixels which average to the exact same color? It's impossible to tell.

Now, I won't say there aren't some really good ways to guess. Photoshop CS5 has a fantastic tool which can do just that, but it's still a complete guess. Those tend to take a much larger area and assume things. For example, if the entire bottom of the image is covered in this green stuff, then maybe the big hole you are trying to fill should contain similar shades and patterns, etc. The problem is these all break down in certain cases, and there is no generic algorithm that works perfectly.

The problem is when you go up in resolution you should increase the detail, and while you can guess at the missing colors, you can never add the detail which would be missing. If there was a human arm, you may be able to guess at the proper skin tone in the missing pixels, but you will never get the pores, or the hairs. Or think about all the small detail which would be seen in a 1080p picture of concrete, you maybe can match color, but going from 640x480 to 1920x1080 is never going to get you that detail, no matter how hard you try.

Now, my best guess as to why the Wii emulator looks better is post-processing of the scene. I would assume they perform some form of aliasing to reduce the jaggies on the image and make everything look smoother. Besides, your eyes can play tricks on you. It's the reason why screens in retail are so bright, because people think they look better and it sells TVs. It's the same reason why volume is used to sell speakers, because if they are the loudest in the store, they must be the best. Look at the images closely and you will most likely they are the exact same, if not a bit smoother (AA as I said before). But no matter how hard you try, you can't add detail.

Your first sentence is the problem. Games don't just consist of a series of images any more. They're a composite of rendered structures (polygonal models) with images applied to them (textures).

It's only the textures that need scaling. The Wii Emulator actually renders the scene in HD (Anti-Aliasing is also offered) and scales the textures. There's no reason the WiiU couldn't do the same thing, unless it's just got a Wii SoC and it's doing hardware emulation. Regardless, somebody's going to break this thing for homebrew and then somebody's going to port Dolphin over and that will be the end of it.

Semi-Related: Depixelizing Pixel Art - A new way to scale sprites really well.
http://research.microsoft.com/en-us/...kopf/pixelart/

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In the end, though, it just comes down to money. Nintendo wants to continue selling Wii's through the WiiU's life cycle. It's the same reason they aren't doing Gamecube emulation. It has nothing to do with what the system can do, and everything to do with them wanting you to either buy the games for Wii, or buy an HD remake.

gekko · 06-09-2011, 11:39 PM

Wow, so they are trying to hook the calls to the graphics API and render it to a larger viewport? That would be possible, similar to DLL hooking. However, even doing that would either warp the image or you would be restricted to a uniform scale. Not sure how you would adjust the aspect ratio unless you tried to decompose the projection matrix and adjust the aspect ratio.

Regardless, I think you're forgetting that rendering at a different resolution isn't that easy. Well, it is as easy as adjusting the viewport and projection matrices, but you can't just do it automatically to existing games and expect it to work. Changing the resolution can cause many rendering artifacts with shadow mapping and others, as well as completely break any code which may be processing a full-screen texture on the CPU side. Artifacts may be acceptable for an illegal emulator, but I would imagine Nintendo wants to get these games to run as close to the original as possible.

I'm by no means an expert on what's possible to do with emulation, but I can't see this being possible for all cases. I imagine it's a bit easier since the Wii is fixed-function, but it seems way too easy to break.

Typhoid · 06-12-2011, 03:18 PM

While I sort of like the idea of the whole....ipad-controller-thing, I think it says a lot when their stock immediately dropped to a 5 year low or something hilarious like that.

Anyways, I think this will be what ruins Nintendo. To oversimplify it, it's sort of just a tablet you use in conjunction with your 'Wii'.

And I'm pretty sure Sony/Microsoft have tablets (If they don't, they should?), so it wouldn't be hard, or needlessly expensive for them to easily phase Nintendo out on this, aswell - just like they slowly tried to do with motion-gaming.

It seems like Nintendo is struggling for fringe ideas to sell consoles, but is sort of totally backing themselves into a corner as they do it. Since the other systems are making super-powerful systems, and simply biting off the gimmicks Nintendo brings, they'll no doubt continue to do this until even a new Nintendo system is immediately obsolete and a generation behind.