No mohammed discussion?

[Typhoid]

Again, what does trying to please a bunch of radical Muslims have to do with my right to free speech or my right to make a joke?

Because it's against their religion, and you are not part of that religion.
It's like 'the n word', when anyone other than some black guy says it.

It's a culture difference.
You have to understand a few things first of all.
They do not really have Free Speech in all places. Free Speech isn't a Universal luxury, so that doesn't matter one single bit in this.
Secondly, it is against their religion to depict Mohammad at all. Is it silly? Sure. But is it their religion? Fuck yes it is.
They have an entirely different culture than we do in North America.
Imagine we are back a few hundred years, and someone is just hardcore slagging on Jesus, I'm pretty sure Zealots wouldn't just go "Muslims can say what they want about Jesus, Freedom of Speech". I'm pretty sure if that happened now Zealots wouldn't do that.
Some Muslims also are strict on other things pertaining to religion. Extremists whip and beat those who are beardless. Women who wear bras are also whipped and beaten.

The reason they take the blasphemy of Mohammad so serious is that in their ancient religious writings it clearly states that not only is depicting the Prophet Mohammad as blasphemous, But it says that The Prophet Mohammad calls for the killing of several people who were mocking him to be killed - and they were killed by an Angel.

And honestly, I actually agree with the ruling to an extent. While it can be funny (in situations like this), once Mohammad is depicted, and no verbal outcry happens, more shows/cartoons could depict Mohammad, which would ridiculously cheapen his image, and meaning to Islam. Not to mention Christianity seems to be AOK with blasphemy against their own prophet, but that doesn't mean every other religion should ease up and stick their leader on T-Shirts and bobble heads just to sell a few units. They've kept the integrity of their religion in tact (minus the extremists who kill in his name, but that's a much different topic, and happens in roughly every religion) and they don't want to lose that. I can not only understand where they are coming from with that, but somewhat agree.

[KillerGremlin]

Originally Posted by Typhoid

Because it's against their religion, and you are not part of that religion.
It's like 'the n word', when anyone other than some black guy says it.

It's a culture difference.
You have to understand a few things first of all.
They do not really have Free Speech in all places. Free Speech isn't a Universal luxury, so that doesn't matter one single bit in this.
Secondly, it is against their religion to depict Mohammad at all. Is it silly? Sure. But is it their religion? Fuck yes it is.
They have an entirely different culture than we do in North America.
Imagine we are back a few hundred years, and someone is just hardcore slagging on Jesus, I'm pretty sure Zealots wouldn't just go "Muslims can say what they want about Jesus, Freedom of Speech". I'm pretty sure if that happened now Zealots wouldn't do that.
Some Muslims also are strict on other things pertaining to religion. Extremists whip and beat those who are beardless. Women who wear bras are also whipped and beaten.

The reason they take the blasphemy of Mohammad so serious is that in their ancient religious writings it clearly states that not only is depicting the Prophet Mohammad as blasphemous, But it says that The Prophet Mohammad calls for the killing of several people who were mocking him to be killed - and they were killed by an Angel.

And honestly, I actually agree with the ruling to an extent. While it can be funny (in situations like this), once Mohammad is depicted, and no verbal outcry happens, more shows/cartoons could depict Mohammad, which would ridiculously cheapen his image, and meaning to Islam. Not to mention Christianity seems to be AOK with blasphemy against their own prophet, but that doesn't mean every other religion should ease up and stick their leader on T-Shirts and bobble heads just to sell a few units. They've kept the integrity of their religion in tact (minus the extremists who kill in his name, but that's a much different topic, and happens in roughly every religion) and they don't want to lose that. I can not only understand where they are coming from with that, but somewhat agree.

You do realize you are defending a religion based on a deity with no factual evidence to back it up? There is no proof, none, nada, zilch proving the existence of Allah. More so, the Jury is still up on whether Jesus existed and I assume the same goes for Mohammad.

If I started a religion believing in magical unicorns and told you not to draw pictures of them, you would feel obligated to respect my wishes? In fact, I'm starting a new religion called KillerGremlinism. I don't approve of depictions of Monkeys, because the great Gremlin Monkey Prophet is timeless. Therefore you need to remove your avatar from this forum because it falsely portrays my prophet. Also, if you don't change your avatar I'm flying a plane into your house!

[Typhoid]

Originally Posted by KillerGremlin

You do realize you are defending a religion based on a deity with no factual evidence to back it up? There is no proof, none, nada, zilch proving the existence of Allah. More so, the Jury is still up on whether Jesus existed and I assume the same goes for Mohammad.

If I started a religion believing in magical unicorns and told you not to draw pictures of them, you would feel obligated to respect my wishes?

There's no proof of a God, either - and I'd defend that in this situation.
I'm not saying there is proof of Allah; therefore we're not allowed to make fun of Mohammad.

I'm saying 1.something billion people believe in the existence of Allah, and the Prophet Mohammad. Even more so there are extremists within that religion who take the depiction of Mohammad (much like it says in their religious scriptures) very seriously.

Religion has transcended proof, facts, and actual people existing. As long as enough people believe in it, it's real for them - and that's all that matters.

And just because Christianity, North America and the UK are alright with Buddy Christ, and putting Jesus on everything from a shirt to a sock to an apron, that doesn't mean every religion does.
When's the last time you saw a Buddha bobblehead giving someone a high five? (I'd love to see that, for the record).

The reason I'm defending Islam, is because A) Many, many people unjustly talk shit about it B) I believe in not insulting other people, nor their religions blatently. The problem here isn't Islam. Nor is the problem Muslims in general. The problem is the extremists. The Muslim equivalent of: Southerners when it comes to blacks, old Catholic ladies when it comes to Catholicism and Zealots.

Having Mohammad on South Park is alright. He's been on before. There was no uproar. He was just a dude.

But having Mohammad in a Bear Costume with a blue jersey that says "Bears" on it - you have to tell me that that wouldn't be a little blasphemous to someone who has no humour when it comes to his or her religion.

Also, "I don't think it's real" is pointless in this conversation. Why you'd say it is ridiculous.

Edit to your edit:

If I started a religion believing in magical unicorns and told you not to draw pictures of them, you would feel obligated to respect my wishes? In fact, I'm starting a new religion called KillerGremlinism. I don't approve of depictions of Monkeys, because the great Gremlin Monkey Prophet is timeless. Therefore you need to remove your avatar from this forum because it falsely portrays my prophet. Also, if you don't change your avatar I'm flying a plane into your house!

If you had a thousands of year old text depicting those magical unicorns spreading positive messages, and had billions of followers (maybe even if you had millions) - yes, I'd respect that. But since you're just some dude over the internet in the middle of what I assume to be the United States who wants to slag on Islam because a cartoon can't make fun of someone's religion and you just started caring about this situation a few days ago when you saw it on the internet, no - I wouldn't respect your religion.

[Typhoid]

I have a mission for you, Angels.
If you don't believe in the power of blasphemy, take some of these pictures, print them off - and hand them out at a Catholic or Christian church.








Are they funny? Sure, sort of. But shown to the wrong people I'm pretty sure you'd have a fun time.

[KillerGremlin]

Originally Posted by Typhoid

I'm saying 1.something billion people believe in the existence of Allah, and the Prophet Mohammad. Even more so there are extremists within that religion who take the depiction of Mohammad (much like it says in their religious scriptures) very seriously.

So what? If 1 billion people are wrong in their belief does that make it okay? If thousands of Christians genuinely believed the world was flat and the earth was the center of the universe, would that belief be okay? What 1 billion wrong people believe has no implication on my right to free speech. Even if a part of those billion people live in the very country whose Constitution clearly states freedom of speech.

Originally Posted by Typhoid

Religion has transcended proof, facts, and actual people existing. As long as enough people believe in it, it's real for them - and that's all that matters.

Again, that's total bullshit. See: world is flat.

Originally Posted by Typhoid

But having Mohammad in a Bear Costume with a blue jersey that says "Bears" on it - you have to tell me that that wouldn't be a little blasphemous to someone who has no humour when it comes to his or her religion.

Sure, it is blasphemous to the person who has no humor. So what? That's the point of freedom of Speech. To piss off people who have no humor, and to entertain people who do have humor.

Originally Posted by Typhoid

Also, "I don't think it's real" is pointless in this conversation. Why you'd say it is ridiculous.

It is relevant to this conversation because you brought up the word Nigger. Let us not forget that not too long ago South Park had an episode about that Nigger guy. And it didn't offend anyone (or anyone I know). In fact, it was hilarious! Actually, I'm not sure how that ties with the real thing. I just wanted to mention that South Park had an episode on the N-word.

I think "realness" ties into my point below though, which is you walk a fine line when you defend someone's fictional* belief.

*fictional, or until proven otherwise

Originally Posted by Typhoid

If you had a thousands of year old text depicting those magical unicorns spreading positive messages, and had billions of followers (maybe even if you had millions) - yes, I'd respect that. But since you're just some dude over the internet in the middle of what I assume to be the United States who wants to slag on Islam because a cartoon can't make fun of someone's religion and you just started caring about this situation a few days ago when you saw it on the internet, no - I wouldn't respect your religion.

You're walking a fine line deciding whose beliefs are important. It's all or nothing buddy, especially in the spirit of the United States Constitution and the 1st Amendment (which is what this thread was kind of about). If we are going to defend the belief of some magical Muslim prophet guy because 1 million people have their religion, then you better be prepared to defend my belief in purple fairies or gay unicorns or whatever it is I want to believe in.


Also, I think you're missing the point. I'm not slagging on Islam. I'm slagging on Muslim extremists who are lashing out at people who want to parody religion. In case you missed the year 2010, every other person who practices every other religion besides Islam (with the exception of extremists and clergy) is okay with parody of religion. If they don't like it they don't watch it, or they have a sense of humor about it. I think the spirit of this thread has been that just because you are offended by something said, that does not give you the right to lash out with violent threats or violence. Why not make fun back? Or have a laugh? Or have a beer and sex? Oh wait...

[Typhoid]

Originally Posted by KillerGremlin

So what? If 1 billion people are wrong in their belief does that make it okay?

The fact they don't want Mohammad depicted is wrong? Who are you to dictate what another religion should deem good or bad?

Originally Posted by KillerGremlin

If thousands of Christians genuinely believed the world was flat and the earth was the center of the universe, would that belief be okay?

Hundreds of years ago, yes. That would be perfect.

Originally Posted by KillerGremlin

What 1 billion wrong people has no implication on my right to free speech. Even if a part of those billion people live in the very country whose Constitution clearly states freedom of speech.

Firs toff, I assume you're meaning there are Muslims in the US. There are. 0.2% of the world's population of Muslims live in the US.
Secondly, you have no right to say which religion is wrong, and which is right. In this case (The case of Mohammad not being depicted) technically, they are right. Mohammad isn't allowed to be depicted. It says so in their religion. So realistically, South Park, and those defending it are in the wrong.

Sure, it is blasphemous to the person who has no humor. So what? That's the point of freedom of Speech.

No it's not, it's equality. Not anger and hate.

It is relevant to this conversation because you brought up the word Nigger. Let us not forget that not too long ago South Park had an episode about that Nigger guy. And it didn't offend anyone (or anyone I know). In fact, it was hilarious!

I'm pretty sure you could find a handful of black people who didn't like the 'Nigger Guy' episode, which is the same as this. But I assume you'd try and tell those black people they're wrong for not wanting white people to say the word 'Nigger'.

You're walking a fine line deciding whose beliefs are important. It's all or nothing buddy

Everyone's. I'm saying EVERYONES beliefs are important (to that person). That DOES NOT give anyone else the right to poke fun (when they know damn well it won't be taken lightly) at any other religion. Slight jokes are great. If you don't think I'm about equality in religion, check out the Catholicism thread, because I was defending the shit out of that. Take a lifelong Italian Catholic, and stick them in a room with some 20-something Muslims who are depicting some dude giving it to Virgin Mary, and I don't think it would be a "OH, this is hilarious! I love your artwork" type of situation.

I'm slagging on Muslim extremists who are lashing out at people who want to parody religion. In case you missed the year 2010, every other person who practices every other religion besides Islam (with the exception of extremists and clergy) is okay with parody of religion.

Different Culture.

But why does someone somewhere considering something blasphemy make it ok to silence speech with threat of violence?

Mana, I never adressed the violence part of this, nor did I obviously agree with it.

I'm trying to get the point across that A) Freedom of Speech is not universal B) The Middle East in general has a VERY different culture - at least amongst the extremists. They aren't as relaxed as we are about shit like this.

Personally, I don't think it's good to make fun of anyone's religion. Or any religion for that matter. It's always going to be a serious topic, and it's always going to get the wrong person pissed off. And in the end, what does it accomplish? Answer me that. Did they want to depict Mohammad to get a point across, or to get news for their ever-failing popularity? My honest opinion is the latter.

Edit: Ahhh, KG, half points. It's not a bobblehead and he's not giving someone a high-five. He's just ready for the occasion.

[KillerGremlin]

Originally Posted by Typhoid

The fact they don't want Mohammad depicted is wrong? Who are you to dictate what another religion should deem good or bad?

I'm not sure where this Good/Bad straw man came from, as I never said the religion was good or bad. I questioned the validity of the belief using a scientific and now legal approach.

Look, I'm speaking strictly in terms of United States law. I'm speaking in terms of law firmly now too, especially at this point in the discussion. In America the LAW, L-A-W, is freedom of speech. It really doesn't matter what anyone believes because the L-A-W states that I have a right to freedom of speech. That is who I am to dictate.

US Constitution (The Law) > rules of Muslim religion

So if 1 billion Muslims believe that Mohamed should not be depicted, and I believe I wanted to depict him, I would be right and they would be wrong. At least in a legal sense. In a philosophical sense we could certainly argue, but then I'd ask you to prove the existence of Allah.

Originally Posted by Typhoid

Hundreds of years ago, yes. That would be perfect.

No, it wouldn't. In fact early Christians or whoever fucked a lot of good stuff up. Word in the history books is Alexander the Great had a library full of information that was burned to the ground by fundamentalists, information that was recently rediscovered as early as just a few hundred years ago. It wasn't until Copernicus got the wheels of science rolling again that people realized how bad the anti-science mentality from religion was. This is totally subjective, of course.

Originally Posted by Typhoid

Firs toff, I assume you're meaning there are Muslims in the US. There are. 0.2% of the world's population of Muslims live in the US.
Secondly, you have no right to say which religion is wrong, and which is right. In this case (The case of Mohammad not being depicted) technically, they are right. Mohammad isn't allowed to be depicted. It says so in their religion. So realistically, South Park, and those defending it are in the wrong.

Constitution > religious rules




I feel like there is very little I can add to this discussion with further arguing, so I'll let more qualified people jump in.

[Typhoid]

Originally Posted by KillerGremlin

I'm not sure where this Good/Bad straw man came from, as I never said the religion was good or bad. I questioned the validity of the belief using a scientific and now legal approach.

You alluded to "If 1 billion people are wrong" which I took as a direct statement to Muslims, opposed to a comparison of 1 billion people on some other topic.

but then I'd ask you to prove the existence of Allah.

Prove God doesn't/Prove he does. Blah blah blah. That's circular and retarded.
And yes, I'm aware the absence of proof isn't proof.
And for the record, I am not religious, so I have no stake in any of this.

No, it wouldn't. In fact early Christians or whoever fucked a lot of good stuff up. Word in the history books is Alexander the Great had a library full of information that was burned to the ground by fundamentalists, information that was recently rediscovered as early as just a few hundred years ago. It wasn't until Copernicus got the wheels of science rolling again that people realized how bad the anti-science mentality from religion was. This is totally subjective, of course.

No, I agree with you.
What I was getting at was that hundreds and hundreds of years ago the world was flat (as far as everyone knew), making the statement of "The world is flat" a 'fact', until proven otherwise. So to think the world was flat in an age where the world was depicted to be flat wouldn't be wrong, or crazy. By our standards, completely.

[Teuthida]

*sigh* I thought I was done with this thread.

On science:
Everyone should be free to believe whatever cannot be proven by science. Don't believe in evolution or think the world is flat. We'll have words. Think there's an omniscient invisible dude in the sky? Whatever.

On respect:
If you trick a vegetarian into eating meat, you're a dick.
If you draw a swastika on someone's property, you're a dick.
If you call someone the n-word, you're a dick.
If you depict Mohammed, you're a dick.
If I could think up something for Christians to be a dick about I would but it seems most of them don't agree on anything and constantly break all their own rules anyway.

Comedians can get away with racey material about their own race/religion. If you (not of that race/religon) do it, you're a dick and a bigot.

To summarize: Don't be a dick.

[KillerGremlin]

Originally Posted by Typhoid

When's the last time you saw a Buddha bobblehead giving someone a high five? (I'd love to see that, for the record).

Buddha says, high five!