Final Fantasy 13 Dated

[TheSlyMoogle]

Originally Posted by DarkMaster

Learned their lesson with the sphere grid? What lesson would that be, exactly? That it was fuckin awesome? I am blown away that they have created an evolution of the sphere grid system, I thought it was one of the best changes they ever made with the series when FFX came out. Leveling up is standard now, it's boring, every game has leveling up, it's become completely redundant. Thank god an RPG is trying to do something more with the concept.

You're awfully quick to judge a 40 hour game from a 5 minute video of a demo given to the press.

Actually more going along the lines of what my friend Chase says. My friend who imported the PS3 version of the game, speaks fluent Japanese, and has been playing RPGs just as long as I have. The five minute video just helped me visualize his words.

The Sphere grid was a clusterfuck of stupid. Farming Lvl. 3 and Lvl. 4 keys... Yeah no thanks, I really don't need that extra 100 hp. The only thing saving face right now is apparently it has a decent story and likable characters. Final Fantasy Versus 13 is actually sounding much better as of right now.

Originally Posted by TheGame

Agreed.

I loved the sphere grid, though I wish they'd make another FF with FF7's ability system. I just like having a lot of freedom in how I develop my characters. I had Yuna learn a bunch of black mage abilities and she made Lulu seem useless. It was fun!

This...

There was no individuality in the characters when you could take them through everyone's sphere grid. Basically what makes a final fantasy game sweet was shattered as soon as you got Kimari over to Black spells, which btw didn't take long, and he entered the thing right next to ultima. Which btw is the fastest way to get Ultima for Lulu, just use a friend sphere and take her through the back door of her own part of the grid. However the same argument can be made about 7, 10 and 12. I just don't see the purpose of having all characters being able to do everything if you put enough time into it. I hated 10 with a fiery passion, and 12 wasn't any better.

This isn't just limited to the FF series, it's basically all RPGs these days. Just a useless bunch of shit packed into a story that's been done before, and a bunch of stock characters. :s Guess you can say that about pretty much anything nowadays though.

[TheGame]

There was no individuality in the characters when you could take them through everyone's sphere grid.

Sly Moogle, I couldn't disagree more lol.

I think being able to give your group whatever spells you want gives the game MORE individuality. It's not like the characters could learn each other's limit breaks (or whatever it was called in X).

I like having the freedom to make my team do whatever I want them to do. The only reason I like FF7's system more is because it had even MORE freedom. I could have had Cloud learn anything I wanted, and he could have been good at it if I took the time to do so. It made the game more replayable to try out different sets and different spell combinations.

I can't stand games where you "level" and just get the same spells every time without any customization to abilities.

[TheSlyMoogle]

Originally Posted by TheGame

Sly Moogle, I couldn't disagree more lol.

I think being able to give your group whatever spells you want gives the game MORE individuality. It's not like the characters could learn each other's limit breaks (or whatever it was called in X).

I like having the freedom to make my team do whatever I want them to do. The only reason I like FF7's system more is because it had even MORE freedom. I could have had Cloud learn anything I wanted, and he could have been good at it if I took the time to do so. It made the game more replayable to try out different sets and different spell combinations.

I can't stand games where you "level" and just get the same spells every time without any customization to abilities.

How does that make them more individual? "Oh hey I'm Yuna, I'm a black mage and a white mage." "Oh hey I'm LuLu, I'm a white mage and black mage too."

Oh so you're like the same character with different models?

Also, overdrives were what they were called. Each character had a different way to get them. Tidus had the easiest and most damaging Overdrive, and also the easiest "Ultra Overdrive" to get. Basically you attacked and you got overdrive meter.

Anyway what's the point in having a team of characters who cover their own weaknesses? Oh hey, we can all cure! Wakka, Auron and Tidus, just go out there and kill stuff because our mages aren't needed here. The only character who has a skill that's solely hers that is usable more than once every 20 battles or so, was Yuna in Summoning. And that was useful /sarcasm.

The worst part was it had a pretty cool battle system with the ability to switch characters out mid battle. They totally defeated that purpose though. What was the point in splitting the AP further, when you could power through the game with 3 characters? Plus I would still like to know whose idiotic design it was to start Kimari right by ultima so you could get it like a third into the game with a friend sphere as long as you didn't progress Kimari.

I'll agree that leveling up is a fairly old and worn out system, but in no way was sphere grid a good replacement. I'm sorry you don't like limits because they make things hard.


To talk about people who think RPGs are getting easier, here's where it started. "OH HI! I'M FFX! Not only is my story trash, my voice acting abysmal

[TheGame]

Sly I can see your point, and have a good idea of what you enjoy... but I still disagree with you.

As far as individuality goes, your definition and my definition seem to be different.. From the standpoint of playing that game anyway.

From my understanding, you think that since every character can learn any ability (minus overdrives), they lack individuality. That's my disagreement. Here's some points of why I disagree:

I. The characters are limited by their base abilities. While they can learn any spells, it's still more efficient to make the casters (Lulu, Yuna) pump up their casting ability.. And more efficient to make melee (Wakka, Auron) pump up their physical attacking ability. The Hybrid guys can be "good" at anything, but given the same amount of focus they'd still never be as good of a caster as Yuna or Lulu, and they'd never be as good of a melee as Auron and Wakka. And how many good melee-Lulus have you seen?

II. Individuality per playthrough matters to me more then any single character. If I want to play through with 3 melee, one who happens to know white magic like a paladin, and one who happens to know dark magic like a dark knight one time.. then play through with 3 casters the next time... or just play with 3 people who are good at one thing each and suck at everything else.. I just like to have that freedom. It makes the game more replayabile if it's not the same thing every time.

III. The most popular FF games feature this freedom. It's not a coincedence that FF7 is the most popular FF game of all time. It's because of the freedom that materia gave. Since the materia could be shared, when someone was booted out of your group for one reason or another, you could just buff up someone else with the abilities you learned. If you want to talk about lacking individuality character to character, you need to talk about FF7. Because Materia makes the sphere grid look extremely linear.

I don't know, I'm just simply a fan of being able to create your own strategy.

[TheSlyMoogle]

Originally Posted by TheGame

Sly I can see your point, and have a good idea of what you enjoy... but I still disagree with you.

I. The characters are limited by their base abilities. While they can learn any spells, it's still more efficient to make the casters (Lulu, Yuna) pump up their casting ability.. And more efficient to make melee (Wakka, Auron) pump up their physical attacking ability. The Hybrid guys can be "good" at anything, but given the same amount of focus they'd still never be as good of a caster as Yuna or Lulu, and they'd never be as good of a melee as Auron and Wakka. And how many good melee-Lulus have you seen?

Actually not true. If you take every character through the entire sphere grid you will have maxed all stats, except you have a choice. You can either choose to max hp or max luck, but you cannot do both because of lack of empty spheres. Every other stat maxes easily, and I believe my friend kyle told me it will max if you take each character through their own grid and 2 other character grids. Might be wrong on that point. Either way mid-way through the game you can have a lulu that hits as hard as auron and a tidus that heals as well as a yuna. I even think the characters all start with the same base stats or very small discrepancies. Yes I've seen lulu and tidus hit for the same damage, and yuna and tidus heal for the same amount.

Originally Posted by TheGame

II. Individuality per playthrough matters to me more then any single character. If I want to play through with 3 melee, one who happens to know white magic like a paladin, and one who happens to know dark magic like a dark knight one time.. then play through with 3 casters the next time... or just play with 3 people who are good at one thing each and suck at everything else.. I just like to have that freedom. It makes the game more replayabile if it's not the same thing every time.

Meh I think games are more replayable with limits. Take for instance the single character challenges on some of the older FF games. Challenging yourself to use the worst characters, or just replaying the game each time with different teams. FFX kinda killed that. Single characters could run through everyone's grid so no big deal. Back in the day we created reasons to run through the game again. Usually just because it was awesome.

Originally Posted by TheGame

III. The most popular FF games feature this freedom. It's not a coincedence that FF7 is the most popular FF game of all time. It's because of the freedom that materia gave. Since the materia could be shared, when someone was booted out of your group for one reason or another, you could just buff up someone else with the abilities you learned. If you want to talk about lacking individuality character to character, you need to talk about FF7. Because Materia makes the sphere grid look extremely linear.

I don't know, I'm just simply a fan of being able to create your own strategy.

FF7 had enough character personality to keep the characters individual. Plus with the number of times characters left your party or you were forced to use characters that weren't your regulars, it was necessary. Either way FF7 had a complex leveling system for you materia. It was a pretty cool way to do things.

FFX on the other hand just had no personality behind its characters. I'm struggling to remember characters like rikku and kimari, even auron got swept back. Then they could all have each other's skills? Nah no thanks.

And still that's no excuse. Even with characters with predetermined skills and abilities you still had your own strategy, everyone did.

And it doesn't have to be so hard strict either. In FF6 everyone could learn the same spells, but everyone had different abilities and even limit breaks (Yes FF6 had them, they were rare but they were called desperation attacks.) For example only locke could steal and only celes could absorb magic. Individuality yet still the customization you seek. Stuff like this can be done.

[TheGame]

Originally Posted by TheSlyMoogle

Actually not true. If you take every character through the entire sphere grid you will have maxed all stats, except you have a choice. You can either choose to max hp or max luck, but you cannot do both because of lack of empty spheres. Every other stat maxes easily, and I believe my friend kyle told me it will max if you take each character through their own grid and 2 other character grids. Might be wrong on that point. Either way mid-way through the game you can have a lulu that hits as hard as auron and a tidus that heals as well as a yuna. I even think the characters all start with the same base stats or very small discrepancies. Yes I've seen lulu and tidus hit for the same damage, and yuna and tidus heal for the same amount.

This is simply false. If you gave Auron all the melee buffs on the grid, and gave lulu all the same buffs on the grid on another playthrugh, Auron would be stronger. Period.

Meh I think games are more replayable with limits. Take for instance the single character challenges on some of the older FF games. Challenging yourself to use the worst characters, or just replaying the game each time with different teams. FFX kinda killed that. Single characters could run through everyone's grid so no big deal. Back in the day we created reasons to run through the game again. Usually just because it was awesome.

That's just a difference in taste. I can't argue with that but to say that FFX is about as replayable as an RPG can get imo. Just like FF7, just because everyone can learn everyone else's abilities it doesn't mean that you can't change up the strategy.

FF7 had enough character personality to keep the characters individual. Plus with the number of times characters left your party or you were forced to use characters that weren't your regulars, it was necessary. Either way FF7 had a complex leveling system for you materia. It was a pretty cool way to do things.

And? Personality has nothing to do with the leveling system. FF7 had NO individuality of characters in groups compared to FFX. Not only could you learn everyone else's abilities, you could TAKE all of their abilities and move them around whenever you wanted. If we're comparing FFX and FF7, and you want a game with some limitations.. then you want FFX.

I'm sorry you didn't like the FFX story... I enjoyed it more then FF7's personally. But tossing character development and our personal bias towards the game stories out... The fact is that FFX had more individuality then FF7. I haven't played FF6, but from how you make it sound, FFX is the same.

[TheSlyMoogle]

Err... Seeing as weapons only had slot bonuses that you could control, as well as armor, and the fact that Auron and Lulu's stats could be exactly the same, they would both hit for the same amount of damage. I'm sorry you are wrong. Besides damage caps out at 9999 as always unless you do a nifty overdrive as they were allowed to break damage caps, and speaking in that case Lulu's was top tier as you could rig it to always cast ultima and you can always get it to cast 7 times if you're awesome. 7 ultima's > Auron's stupid overdrive. AT THE END OF THE DAY THEY HIT FOR 9999 EACH! SAME FUCKING PERSON IS SAME FUCKING PERSON!

Definition.

in·di·vid·u·al·i·ty (nd-vj-l-t)
n. pl. in·di·vid·u·al·i·ties
1.
a. The aggregate of qualities and characteristics that distinguish one person or thing from others; character: choices that were intended to express his individuality; monotonous sphere grids lacking in individuality.
b. An individual or distinguishing feature.
2. The quality or state of being individual; singularity: She was so absorbed by the sphere grid that she lost all sense of individuality.

I'm done with the argument but it leaves me to believe that you probably didn't play FFX more than once all the way through, or if you even finished it once.

Plus the majority of people you talk to who have played every FF game will tell you that a) FFX was garbage in terms of story and characters, and b) sphere grid sucked. Even people who loved FFX didn't like the sphere grid.

Obviously no one else is reading this so I dunno why I continue posting anyway.

[Thespis721]

I'm reading it. And loving it.

[DarkMaster]

Developers take a chance at ingenuity and change a leveling system by adding something like the sphere grid and people bitch because it strays too far from the standard formula.

Developers play it safe and decide not to change the standard formula, and people bitch because it's not different enough and does nothing new.


Here's the moral of the story: gamers fuckin bitch about everything.

It sure is easy to complain about things when you don't have the responsibility of redefining multi-million dollar franchises. I guess we can just be thankful that we are not game developers and don't have to put up with our own bullshit.

[TheGame]

Originally Posted by TheSlyMoogle

Err... Seeing as weapons only had slot bonuses that you could control, as well as armor, and the fact that Auron and Lulu's stats could be exactly the same, they would both hit for the same amount of damage. I'm sorry you are wrong. Besides damage caps out at 9999 as always unless you do a nifty overdrive as they were allowed to break damage caps, and speaking in that case Lulu's was top tier as you could rig it to always cast ultima and you can always get it to cast 7 times if you're awesome. 7 ultima's > Auron's stupid overdrive. AT THE END OF THE DAY THEY HIT FOR 9999 EACH! SAME FUCKING PERSON IS SAME FUCKING PERSON!

Once again, FALSE.

First off, I'm making the assumption we're talking about a NORMAL play through of the game. Not some extreme grind session. You do not have to hit for 9999 damage to beat that game.. if you're just playing through as normal, it is more advantagious to give auron melee buffs and Lulu magic buffs. And even if they were both hitting for 9999 damage it would still be more advantagious to give auron melee buffs because his overdrives are built for melee... and Lulu's are built for casting.

So no, they're not the "same fucking person", and Auron does in fact benifit more from melee buffs.

Definition.

in·di·vid·u·al·i·ty (nd-vj-l-t)
n. pl. in·di·vid·u·al·i·ties
1.
a. The aggregate of qualities and characteristics that distinguish one person or thing from others; character: choices that were intended to express his individuality; monotonous sphere grids lacking in individuality.
b. An individual or distinguishing feature.
2. The quality or state of being individual; singularity: She was so absorbed by the sphere grid that she lost all sense of individuality.

You could say it was absorbed by Anima in FF7. I just LOVE how you want to avoid that subject.

I'm done with the argument but it leaves me to believe that you probably didn't play FFX more than once all the way through, or if you even finished it once.

2 hand a half times.

Plus the majority of people you talk to who have played every FF game will tell you that a) FFX was garbage in terms of story and characters, and b) sphere grid sucked. Even people who loved FFX didn't like the sphere grid.

And I'm not discussing the story or characters, I'm discussing the sphere grid.

Obviously no one else is reading this so I dunno why I continue posting anyway.

Thespis is.

But we can stop. You haven't proven your point about the sphere grid, other then to say that you like anima more because you think the characters in FF7 have more personality.. even though they have less abilities that seperate themselves from each other then FFX.

You know what would have hurt FFX's individuality more? If every activated node on the sphere grid could be shared and distributed among any characters in your party at any point in the game.. That's what Anima is in FF7.

-EDIT-

By the way, don't get me wrong.. I like FF7's Anima system more then the sphere grid. It's Sly who's trying to put the freedom of the games in a bad light.. not me. I like FFX's story more, because I feel that the main characters are better and more complex, as are the enemies.. Sephiroth is the most over rated bad guy in gaming history imo. But I did like being able to switch up how my team's abilities worked mid game.

[Thespis721]

Originally Posted by DarkMaster

Developers take a chance at ingenuity and change a leveling system by adding something like the sphere grid and people bitch because it strays too far from the standard formula.

Developers play it safe and decide not to change the standard formula, and people bitch because it's not different enough and does nothing new.


Here's the moral of the story: gamers fuckin bitch about everything.

It sure is easy to complain about things when you don't have the responsibility of redefining multi-million dollar franchises. I guess we can just be thankful that we are not game developers and don't have to put up with our own bullshit.

First off, you're right. In this internet laden world, you'll never be able to please everybody. There will always be someone on the internet bitching.

However, when I have a problem is when developers take parts that are working and replacing them with bad ideas that don't work out. But that's the risks you take when you try to change things up? I prefer for them to mix things up and take changes. However, I'd love it if they were given the room to fail, which they aren't, because they are multi-million dollar franchises.

When all is said and done, if you want something really innovative, you'll most likely have to go to a new IP then one that has been around since the days of NES.

[TheGame]

I agree with Thespis..

Though I do like that the multi million dollar franchises are still trying to be innovative. The thing that comes to mind to me is the MGS series. MGS 1-4 are all very high rated, but they're also very different from one another. But the difference is that MGS series took pretty much everything from the previous game, and added too it in an innovative way.

Final Fantasy tries to do that, but some people simply don't like it. But it doesn't stop the games from being highly rated and from selling millions. Some people want more nostalgia, but SE is trying to make a new innovative product that appeals to people who are new to the series, while not trying to "replace" that old game that older fans of the series have nostalgia for.

[TheSlyMoogle]

Originally Posted by TheGame

Once again, FALSE.

First off, I'm making the assumption we're talking about a NORMAL play through of the game. Not some extreme grind session. You do not have to hit for 9999 damage to beat that game.. if you're just playing through as normal, it is more advantagious to give auron melee buffs and Lulu magic buffs. And even if they were both hitting for 9999 damage it would still be more advantagious to give auron melee buffs because his overdrives are built for melee... and Lulu's are built for casting.

So no, they're not the "same fucking person", and Auron does in fact benifit more from melee buffs.

BUT WE'RE NOT TALKING ABOUT A NORMAL PLAYTHROUGH!

At least not in your discussion. You said you liked having your characters going through other characters sphere grids?

Well that's not a normal playthrough. If you don't go farm that one cave with all the malboros or if you don't farm that monster fighter place, you don't get level 3 or 4 keys (Well maybe a couple) and you need those to get to the places on the sphere grid to even complete your own character's grid. In a normal playthrough yes, you have restrictions on characters. There's some wonky things you can do with friend spheres though, but other than that then FFX in a normal play through is just as restricted as an RPG where you level up and gain skills. In fact it's the exact same thing at that point, just takes more grinding actually and a ridiculous "oh hey, I just found one of the few enemies in the game who drops level 2 keys, better see how many of those I need to progress my characters in the sphere grid." Which is just silly, btw, that you should have to ever worry about level progression because you can't find a fucking level 2 key.

Also as far as overdrives go, they're not stat based. The only things that are stat based in the game are physical attacks and magic attacks. The same formula that FF games have been using since the first game (Well slightly modified.)

Overdrive damage is calculated with a formula based on the monster's stats and something else, maybe some base figure for the overdrive itself. Don't exactly remember, but it allowed most overdrives of the highest level to break the 9999 damage cap. The only difference was Lulu's which was magic based in that you cast multiples of the spells, and Yuna's which was basically summoning a monster with full overdrive gauge.

And where did you get Anima system in FF7? It's materia. And for the record I didn't really like FF7 past story and characters.

We will now rank my favorite FF games:

01. Final Fantasy Tactics
02. Final Fantasy 6
03. Final Fantasy 4 (2 in the US)
05. Final Fantasy 5
06. Final Fantasy 8
07. Final Fantasy 9
08. Final Fantasy 1
09. Final Fantasy 2
10. Final Fantasy 3

Notice how 7 and 10 aren't on that list. However 7 would be next.

But in a realm of good games 10 just didn't cut it for me in any way shape or form.

[TheGame]

Originally Posted by TheSlyMoogle

BUT WE'RE NOT TALKING ABOUT A NORMAL PLAYTHROUGH!

At least not in your discussion. You said you liked having your characters going through other characters sphere grids?

I gave Yuna black magic on my first ever playthrough of the game. That was a normal playthrough, however Yuna was already built to handle any magic, so it never hurt. On future playthroughs, whenever I had the chance to move Yuna through Lulu's grid, or the chance to have her take any spells from Lulu's grid, I'd do it.

And I'll agree with you that farming keys sucks.

Also as far as overdrives go, they're not stat based. The only things that are stat based in the game are physical attacks and magic attacks. The same formula that FF games have been using since the first game (Well slightly modified.)

Overdrive damage is calculated with a formula based on the monster's stats and something else, maybe some base figure for the overdrive itself. Don't exactly remember, but it allowed most overdrives of the highest level to break the 9999 damage cap. The only difference was Lulu's which was magic based in that you cast multiples of the spells, and Yuna's which was basically summoning a monster with full overdrive gauge.

Wakka also had an overdrive where you could do normal melee hits multiple times. Auron had something similar. If you're capped in damage, the thing that makes the difference is multiple hit overdrives. That's why Lulu's the only person built for black magic, because she's the only person with a multiple hit overdrive for magic.. And that's why she can't be as strong as Wakka or Auron, because their overdrives are melee based.

I haven't tried a melee Lulu, so I can't speak for if the overdrives are not stat based. If a melee Lulu still overdrives just as strong as a completly magic buffed Lulu with her spells, then you're right..

And where did you get Anima system in FF7? It's materia. And for the record I didn't really like FF7 past story and characters.

Sorry, I meant materia... I don't even know where I got anima from lmao.

We will now rank my favorite FF games:

01. Final Fantasy Tactics
02. Final Fantasy 6
03. Final Fantasy 4 (2 in the US)
05. Final Fantasy 5
06. Final Fantasy 8
07. Final Fantasy 9
08. Final Fantasy 1
09. Final Fantasy 2
10. Final Fantasy 3

Notice how 7 and 10 aren't on that list. However 7 would be next.

But in a realm of good games 10 just didn't cut it for me in any way shape or form.

And guess whiich two FF games are #1 and #2 sold of all time? And 12 is somewhere in the mix for #3-5 with FF8 and 9. Not that this discredits your arguement any, but it must be annoying that all the FFs in the series that you don't like seem to be the most mainsteam ones.. Unfortunately SE has to look at things with more sales as "working", and things with less sales as "not working"... and being innovative about the leveling system, and allowing freedom to give spells to anyone has "worked" as far as sales go.

So I'd expect more of the same

[BreakABone]

If you want to listen to what is essentially a 2 hour, pretty spoilerfree review/discussion on the game from RPG fans.

http://www.podtrac.com/pts/redirect..../ATB022510.mp3

Jeremy Parish, Kat Bailey, Christian Nutt, and Chris Kohler debate the merits of the next Final Fantasy game in the most spoiler-free way possible -- but not before nearly coming to blows over the merits of Xenoblade.

(57.7 MB) - Length: 2:06:09