President Obama Healthcare Speech

[Professor S]

Originally Posted by TheGame

Nor are the semantic games played on those polls. There's no direct mention of people's support for the public option for healthcare insurance. While I'd agree that support for the plans in washington have lowered, I just disagree with the reasons.

The Rasmussen article you posted even disagrees with your assessment.

Last week, Rasmussen Reports tracking found that support for the Congressional plan was at 42%.

While the tracking question did not specifically mention the public option, it referred to the bill proposed by the president and congressional Democrats now working its way through Congress.

The fact is that bill included a "public option" as it's central building block at the time, amongst other unpalatable items, and everyone knew it.

The fact remains that while people want A public option, once they see the details of what it means to them and healthcare in general, support PLUMMETS.

These numbers continue to support the same rational conlcusion that Rasmussen, the professionals in this venue, came to in September.

The overall picture remains one of stability. Today’s record low support for the plan of 41% is just a point lower than the results found twice before. With the exception of a slight bounce earlier this month following the president’s nationally televised speech to Congress to promote the plan, support for it has remained in the low-to-mid 40s since early July. During that same time period, opposition has generally stayed in the low-to-mid 50s.

If the Rasmussen numbers going back to July don't reflect people's dislike of the "public option", what do they reflect dislike of? Remember, the public option wasn't off the table until early September, I believe (or late August).

And you keep going back to special interests, but to be honest there has never been as much special interest SUPPORT for a government run healthcare option. Even the Pharma companies are now supporting it.

A day after the U.S. Chamber of Commerce launched a multi-million TV ad warning against the Obama administration's healthcare plan, the American Medical Association and the Service Employees International Union on Thursday began a blitz of their own, with the support of pharmaceutical companies and the Federation of American Hospitals.

http://www.allheadlinenews.com/articles/7016090716

As Bond said, the bottom line is they can't get it done. If there was overwhelming support for these plans, they would get done regardless because politicians need to get elected and to do that they need votes. It's simple. People make it complicated.

[TheGame]

If the Rasmussen numbers going back to July don't reflect people's dislike of the "public option", what do they reflect dislike of? Remember, the public option wasn't off the table until early September, I believe (or late August).

Dislike of reaching out to republicans on something they'd never approve of. The public option has been off the table as long as Obama has felt it nessicary for republicans to agree with healthcare reform.

So once again, those polls don't directly ask people if they want a public option for healthcare or not. They're asking people what they think of how the white house is handling things now. Two completly different questions.

As Bond said, the bottom line is they can't get it done. If there was overwhelming support for these plans, they would get done regardless because politicians need to get elected and to do that they need votes. It's simple. People make it complicated.

The problem is that the republicans have went of the deep end so bad, that democrats don't think its nessicary to make a public option to hold onto votes. Just like they don't think its nessicary to make gay marriage legal to hold onto votes. Because the people they're screwing will vote for them anyway.

You can either vote for the person who supports your ideas but doesn't really push for them.. or the person who fights against your ideas.

[Professor S]

Originally Posted by TheGame

Dislike of reaching out to republicans on something they'd never approve of. The public option has been off the table as long as Obama has felt it nessicary for republicans to agree with healthcare reform.

So once again, those polls don't directly ask people if they want a public option for healthcare or not. They're asking people what they think of how the white house is handling things now. Two completly different questions.

Once again, Rasmussen disagrees with your assessment of their polls.

Last week, Rasmussen Reports tracking found that support for the Congressional plan was at 42%.

While the tracking question did not specifically mention the public option, it referred to the bill proposed by the president and congressional Democrats now working its way through Congress.

The problem is that the republicans have went of the deep end so bad, that democrats don't think its nessicary to make a public option to hold onto votes. Just like they don't think its nessicary to make gay marriage legal to hold onto votes. Because the people they're screwing will vote for them anyway.

Ok, so now it IS about winning votes, and therefore a reflection of the will of the people? Then we have nothing to disagree on. I thought it was about special interest interference. By the way, it's spelled "necessary".

You can either vote for the person who supports your ideas but doesn't really push for them.. or the person who fights against your ideas.

Ok, but I fail to see how this is relevant to the discussion at hand. Either way, you've basically conceded the point and agree that the main force in this issue IS the will of the people, unless I've completely misread your post.

[TheGame]

Originally Posted by Professor S

Either way, you've basically conceded the point and agree that the main force in this issue IS the will of the people, unless I've completely misread your post.

Completly missed the point and misread the post.

Here are the people's choices. a) Vote for the group that says they want a public option, but who doesn't really push for one collectively. or b) Vote for the group that's pushing to kill the public option and any type of healthcare reform that our current president suggests.

Lets say my polls are more valid, and the majority of people are in favor ofthe public option... who would you expect them to vote for, option A or option B?

Lets say you are right, and the majority of people are against having a public option... who would you expect them to vote for, option A or option B?

And also, can you understand why a person for the public option would see both option A & B in a negative light?

In this case, democrats don't have to appeal to the people, because the only other option the people are given, appeal to them even less. Which is why, dispite the fact that the majority of people want a public option... democrats will not pass it so that they can hold on to their bribes, because voters won't switch sides no matter what the dems do at this point.

Oh, did I say bribes? I meant their campaign donations. Sorry.

So, as I've said in many threads before... we'll see what happens in 2010 and 2012.

[Professor S]

...

What?

So suddenly incorporating your false assumption (the Dems are against the bill because of special interests not public opinion of the REAL legislation) into a question makes it legitimate? The very nature of the question in "option A" is false, and in fact its that nature that we've been debating! Sorry, this additional semantic game didn't work, try again. Lets try to focus this time and not attempt to change the subject.

The overall picture remains one of stability. Today’s record low support for the plan of 41% is just a point lower than the results found twice before. With the exception of a slight bounce earlier this month following the president’s nationally televised speech to Congress to promote the plan, support for it has remained in the low-to-mid 40s since early July. During that same time period, opposition has generally stayed in the low-to-mid 50s.

Last week, Rasmussen Reports tracking found that support for the Congressional plan was at 42%.

While the tracking question did not specifically mention the public option, it referred to the bill proposed by the president and congressional Democrats now working its way through Congress.

[TheGame]

Uh, once again, no.

They're not refering directly to support of having a public option for health insurance. You can quote the same thing over and over as many times as you'd like, but its not going to change what it says.

And.. Option A is true. There are democrats against the public option, and Obama himself supported a plan that didn't have the public option from Max Baucus.

[Professor S]

Originally Posted by TheGame

Uh, once again, no.

They're not refering directly to support of having a public option for health insurance. You can quote the same thing over and over as many times as you'd like, but its not going to change what it says.

Really?

Last week, Rasmussen Reports tracking found that support for the Congressional plan was at 42%.

While the tracking question did not specifically mention the public option, it referred to the bill proposed by the president and congressional Democrats now working its way through Congress.

How is this not specific enough for you? They say EXACTLY what the poll refers to, and that is THE BILL WITH THE PUBLIC OPTION AS IT'S CENTERPIECE. There is NO AMBIGUITY IN THIS STATEMENT.

The reason I continue to re-post the obvious is that you refuse to acknowledge the obvious and instead spread nonsense. Also, you have yet to form a decent reponse to these reports, instead you create this hypothetical self-question and answering session built to give answers you'd like to hear. I will continue to re-post reason until you A) stop spreading falsehoods or B) actually accept reality.

My bet is on the former, not the latter.

[TheGame]

Originally Posted by Professor S

How is this not specific enough for you? They say EXACTLY what the poll refers to, and that is THE BILL WITH THE PUBLIC OPTION AS IT'S CENTERPIECE. There is NO AMBIGUITY IN THIS STATEMENT.

The reason I continue to re-post the obvious is that you refuse to acknowledge the obvious and instead spread nonsense. I will continue to re-post reason until you A) stop spreading falsehoods or B) actually accept reality.

My bet is on the former, not the latter.

This poll did not directly mention or ask people if they directly supported the idea of a public option, it asked what people thought of how washington is handling it now. This is simply a fact, I can repeat it 50 more times if you wish.

[Professor S]

Originally Posted by TheGame

This poll did not directly mention or ask people if they directly supported the idea of a public option, it asked what people thought of how washington is handling it now. This is simply a fact, I can repeat it 50 more times if you wish.

Ok, so the poll didn't refer specifically to a A public option, but instead specifically to the BILL WITH THE PUBLIC OPTION INCLUDED AS THE CENTERPIECE.

And you think that makes the poll invalid?

So you're literally arguing that the myth is more important than the reality. This is an amazing conversation that I don't want to stop. The farther we get into this the more insane the argument becomes.

Last week, Rasmussen Reports tracking found that support for the Congressional plan was at 42%.

While the tracking question did not specifically mention the public option, it referred to the bill proposed by the president and congressional Democrats now working its way through Congress. All of the congressional committees that had passed reform legislation included a government health insurance plan.

As for your continued claim that the question is about "how washington is handling it" please supply proof of the question. So far all I've found is evidence from Rasmussen that directly contradicts your assertion. The quote above is quite clear. That said, I haven't been able to find the exact questions asked. You seem sure about the questions, so please provide a link.

[TheGame]

Originally Posted by Professor S

Ok, so the poll didn't refer specifically to a A public option, but instead specifically to the BILL WITH THE PUBLIC OPTION INCLUDED AS THE CENTERPIECE.

And you think that makes the poll invalid?

Did I say the poll is invalid? No. I said that the poll did not directly mention or ask people if they directly supported the idea of a public option, it asked what people thought of how washington is handling it now. Which, once again.. is a fact.

As for your continued claim that the question is about "how washington is handling it" please supply proof of the question. So far all I've found is evidnce from Rasmussen that directly contradicts your assertion. Link please.

Did this poll ask people if they'd like a public option, or did this poll ask if people support a bill that was already made? My assertion is that the majority of people are in favor of having a public option, however they're not in favor of how washington is currently handling it. If the poll asked directly if the people (or doctors) would prefer to have a public option, as I posted before, the majority of people would say yes.

However, since the question is refering to a bill that had already been compromised on, and that Obama was offering to butcher to gain support from republicans.. the poll is going to yield bad results.

Once again, we'll see if 'the people' are really opposed to the public option when the only poll that matters happens again.

[Professor S]

Originally Posted by TheGame

Did I say the poll is invalid? No. I said that the poll did not directly mention or ask people if they directly supported the idea of a public option, it asked what people thought of how washington is handling it now. Which, once again.. is a fact.

No, so far this is fact:

Last week, Rasmussen Reports tracking found that support for the Congressional plan was at 42%.

While the tracking question did not specifically mention the public option, it referred to the bill proposed by the president and congressional Democrats now working its way through Congress. All of the congressional committees that had passed reform legislation included a government health insurance plan.

Until you prove otherwise. Please provide the link the question that asked about "how washington is handling it". I have yet to see this mysterious question.

Did this poll ask people if they'd like a public option, or did this poll ask if people support a bill that was already made?

... with a public option as it's centerpiece... it's amazing that you're continuing with this, truly.

My assertion is that the majority of people are in favor of having a public option, however they're not in favor of how washington is currently handling it. If the poll asked directly if the people (or doctors) would prefer to have a public option, as I posted before, the majority of people would say yes.

Yes, and I said they support the IDEA of a public option, they just dislike the REALITY of the public option. The dislike the actual bill... the actual legislation... the reality. Once again, you are arguing the myth against the reality.

However, since the question is refering to a bill that had already been compromised on, and that Obama was offering to butcher to gain support from republicans.. the poll is going to yield bad results.

1) They don't need support from Republicans because the DEms have a 60 vote majority. They need it from Democrats.

2) This poll refers to the bill as of early August, not the one without the public option. That has been made quite clear. Nothing we are discussing right now has anything to do with the optionless plan.

Try again. This is fun.

Last week, Rasmussen Reports tracking found that support for the Congressional plan was at 42%.

While the tracking question did not specifically mention the public option, it referred to the bill proposed by the president and congressional Democrats now working its way through Congress. All of the congressional committees that had passed reform legislation included a government health insurance plan.

[TheGame]

Did I say the poll is invalid? No. I said that the poll did not directly mention or ask people if they directly supported the idea of a public option, it asked what people thought of how washington is handling it now. Which, once again.. is a fact.

your own quote:

While the tracking question did not specifically mention the public option, it referred to the bill proposed by the president and congressional Democrats now working its way through Congress. All of the congressional committees that had passed reform legislation included a government health insurance plan.

Or to break it down:

I said

I said that the poll did not directly mention or ask people if they directly supported the idea of a public option

Your quote:

While the tracking question did not specifically mention the public option

*coughs*

The second part of my quote:

it asked what people thought of how washington is handling it now.

The second part of your quote:

it referred to the bill proposed by the president and congressional Democrats now working its way through Congress.

So once again:

I said that the poll did not directly mention or ask people if they directly supported the idea of a public option, it asked what people thought of how washington is handling it now. Which, once again.. is a fact.

So you can keep argueing against the facts all you want.

Yes, and I said they support the IDEA of a public option, they just dislike the REALITY of the public option. The dislike the actual bill... the actual legislation... the reality. Once again, you are arguing the myth against the reality.

The REALITY of the bill is that the public option was being, and still is being comprimised out of it. Which is why support for it is getting lower and lower.

1) They don't need support from Republicans because the DEms have a 60 vote majority. They need it from Democrats.

Exactly, which is why I said:

It boils down to them not wanting to fight against companies who pay them. That's why there's a civil war in the democratic party right now... Its good politics that the american people want vs good campaign donations. And as long as the republican party keeps looking and acting like morons in this situation, they're not scared of losing votes to them.. However, losing campaign contributions by going against private insurers is a bigger threat

and finally

2) This poll refers to the bill as of early August, not the one without the public option. That has been made quite clear. Nothing we are discussing right now has anything to do with the optionless plan.

once again

I said that the poll did not directly mention or ask people if they directly supported the idea of a public option, it asked what people thought of how washington is handling it now. Which, once again.. is a fact.

You're trying to make the connection that people are voting directly for if they would like to have a public option or not, which isn't the case in this poll. It wasn't the question that was asked, nor is it getting the same results it would have if the question didn't reference the weak sauce that has been being pulled over the last 5+ months.

It'd be like polling NBA fans on if they liked the washington wizards in the early 2000's vs asking if they liked Michael Jordan. And then turning around and saying "But Michael Jordan is the centerpiece of that team!!!!. You're manipulating the poll to fit your own definition.

It did not ask directly if people would like the public option. No matter how much you would like to twist the meaning.

[Professor S]

The BILL does not translate to "how washington is handling it". The bill is the reality of the public option in all it's form, substance and glory.

Your public option is a ghost. A mythical conceit without form or substance. It's a public option that has no downside because it's the perfection of the mind and doesn't care about the real world or unintended consequences. It is impossible to argue against such a beast, so I refuse to do so. I argue REALITY.

I am arguing reality and information based on people's reaction to that reality. You are arguing something that does not exist. You literally have no argument because you have nothing to argue besides an idea of what something SHOULD be but ISN'T.

Hence, people like the idea of "A" public option, the mythological ideal, but not "THE" public option, the reality of what it means once the ideal is attempted to be made reality.

This is REALITY

Last week, Rasmussen Reports tracking found that support for the Congressional plan was at 42%.

While the tracking question did not specifically mention the public option, it referred to the bill proposed by the president and congressional Democrats now working its way through Congress. All of the congressional committees that had passed reform legislation included a government health insurance plan.

The overall picture remains one of stability. Today’s record low support for the plan of 41% is just a point lower than the results found twice before. With the exception of a slight bounce earlier this month following the president’s nationally televised speech to Congress to promote the plan, support for it has remained in the low-to-mid 40s since early July. During that same time period, opposition has generally stayed in the low-to-mid 50s.

You're refusal to accept it does not invalidate it. It just makes you seem unhinged.

[TheGame]

Originally Posted by Professor S

The BILL does not translate to "how washington is handling it". The bill is the reality of the public option in all it's form, substance and glory.

The public option is just one part of the bill that can be (was being, and has been) compromised. Therefore that question isn't asking if people want a public option or not. How hard is that to understand?

"Do you support this bill" =\= "Do you want a public option to be passed"

[Professor S]

Originally Posted by TheGame

The public option is just one part of the bill that can be (was being, and has been) compromised. Therefore that question isn't asking if people want a public option or not. How hard is that to understand?

Ok, so in your definition, what exactly were people against when it comes to the public option legislation that has been proposed? No generalizations... specifics. What exactly did people not like about it?