Public option for healthcare

[TheGame]

I can't watch youtube at work, but I'll check when I'm at home.

And no, I didn't prove his point, I replied to the whole point of his post. As for your post, I'm trying to get away from this whole 'arguement analysis' thing that you're trying to push the thread into, so I replied to the issues you said that you are confused about.

[Professor S]

Originally Posted by TheGame

I can't watch youtube at work, but I'll check when I'm at home.

And no, I didn't prove his point, I replied to the whole point of his post. As for your post, I'm trying to get away from this whole 'arguement analysis' thing that you're trying to push the thread into, so I replied to the issues you said that you are confused about.

So if by "getting away from argument analysis" you mean reinterpreting what has been written to fit your argument, changing the argument when it fits your needs and ignoring inconvenient evidence and logical thought, then congratulations, you've succeeded... in utterly destroying what most rational people consider discourse.

You have to realize what you are avoiding is called the "Socratic method" and it is what all real public discourse is based on.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Socratic_method

I've come the the conclusion having a reasonable conversation with you on political or social issues is impossible. In future political/cultural threads, I'm simply going to ignore you.

[TheGame]

Originally Posted by Professor S

So if by "getting away from argument analysis" you mean reinterpreting what has been written to fit your argument, changing the argument when it fits your needs and ignoring inconvenient evidence and logical thought, then congratulations, you've succeeded... in utterly destroying what most rational people consider discourse.

You have to realize what you are avoiding is called the "Socratic method" and it is what all real public discourse is based on.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Socratic_method

I've come the the conclusion having a reasonable conversation with you on political or social issues is impossible. In future political/cultural threads, I'm simply going to ignore you.

Haha ok.. that's your choice. What I was chosing not to respond to, however, was pointles rederick that wouldn't have led to any meaningful discussion. Lets go back and look at the rest of the post that I was refering to.

Game, at this point your logic is so scattered, contradictory and absent minded to me that I can't continue. At one point you seem to agree with my points in theory but then argue against what you had previously agreed with.

My untyped responce to that would be something along the lines of "Ok and...?". I'm not argueing against something I previously agreed with, and I already disproved that when you brought up your so-called examples of this.

When we mention real problems with the current legislation, you just say they'll avoid them when the actual legislation isn't overcoming any of them.

Once again, nothing meaningful can come from this quote.. My reply to this at most would be: "'It didn't work there, so its not going to work here' is no more or less of a legit arguement then saying 'We can learn from their mistakes.'" Which I said before.

You're discussing in theory why you believe it won't work, which I haven't really challenged other then discussing in theory why it can work.

In the end, I have no idea what your ideas on the subject are, beyond being for public options "damn the torpedoes", with all arguments leading to that end regardless of leaps of reality that must be taken to get there. Public healthcare does not default GOOD. There must be real solutions and challenges overcome, not simply a unthinking movement toward an immediate goal.

Once again another thing that I addressed in the last post I made but didn't quote directly. But I'll just quote myself for the sake of not having you scroll back up again.

"Ok to clarify this, there's two ways I see private health insurance going if the public option is created.

1) Private insurance will try to compete with the public option by offering better quality at a more reasonable price.
2) Private insurance will not be able to compete with the quality that the public option offers at it's price, so it will move into being something only available to wealthy people.

If option one happens, and private insurance becomes more affordable, and they become more focused on quality and legitamate coverage.. then the health care system is fixed. Even if the public option sucks enough that private is still viable, it will force private insurance to make a change for a good to keep their base.

If option two happens, and private insurance pretty much dies and becomes something that only wealthy people will dish out the money for. Then it just proves that private insurance was broken to begin with. And I'd be the first to say good riddens.

The way I see it, if the public option isn't better then what is offered now.. or if the private companies are willing to make the changes they need to compete.. then people will not switch to it. In the end its an option.. if its not a better option then we have now, then there's no reason to switch."

In my opininon its win-win, if its relitively bad compared to what private insurance is willing to offer, it will only be for extreme cases that private inurance refuses to touch. But, if private insurance doesn't get their act together enough to compete, then it will become something bigger and private insurance will likely be pushed into something that the wealthy use only.

[Bond]

I'm going to try a new tactic, since nothing else has been effective.

Originally Posted by TheGame

In my opininon its win-win, if its relitively bad compared to what private insurance is willing to offer, it will only be for extreme cases that private inurance refuses to touch. But, if private insurance doesn't get their act together enough to compete, then it will become something bigger and private insurance will likely be pushed into something that the wealthy use only.

Who pays for the public option?

You do know that the premiums paid by citizens who choose to opt-in will not be enough to cover the entire cost of the program, correct?

Do you believe a public option would truly be deficit-neutral as President Obama claims it would be? Reference this article from the WSJ citing the CBO's (which is non-partisan) findings:

But the most damaging news came from Congressional Budget Office (CBO) Director Douglas Elmendorf, who said last week that the White House’s health-care proposals would not “reduce the trajectory of federal health spending by a significant amount.” This shattered the central claim Mr. Obama has been making: that his health-care plan controls costs. In a July 17 letter, Mr. Elmendorf added that the House’s health-care bill would result in a “net increase in the federal budget deficit of $239 billion” over 10 years. That’s likely a low-ball estimate because it assumes that Congress will increase taxes by $583 billion over the next decade.

[TheGame]

Originally Posted by Bond

I'm going to try a new tactic, since nothing else has been effective.

Ok

Who pays for the public option?

You do know that the premiums paid by citizens who choose to opt-in will not be enough to cover the entire cost of the program, correct?

Initially it will not be enough to cover the costs, you're right. Tax dollars will give birth to this program.

If it becomes the standard type of healthcare for the country and private insurance is pushed into being something for the wealthy.. then it will eventually get to the point where it pays for itself. Though it will pay for itself without pushing for making a profit, and without dealing with as much upper management as private health insurance has. Which will keep the costs at a lower then average rate (in theory).

Now, if it fails to become the standard, and private health insurance companies find a way to keep their price and quality comparable.. then the public option will be pushed into a corner and would be like Prof S's "Catastrophic Care" which will only deal with cases private insurance reasonably would not want to handle. If this happens, tax dollars will continue to pay for it, but it would still address issues that people have with the healthcare system as-is.

I would not mind either result.

The biggest fear I have about the public option, however, is that the governemnt will not play fair with it and continue to push private health insurance into failure by directly making changes in laws that make it impossible for them to compete. As long as the public option remains an OPTION, its win win.

As you (and prof) mentioned earlier in the thread, loosening up regulations on private health insurance would do some good. However I don't feel that it would help without the public option playing some role in it. My problem with a "Catastrophic Care" type thing is that there's no potential for it to pay for itself whatsoever. If the public option morphs into that, we can at lest say we tried to save government money.

Do you believe a public option would truly be deficit-neutral as President Obama claims it would be? Reference this article from the WSJ citing the CBO's (which is non-partisan) findings:

That would depend completly on how sucsessfull the program is as I stated above. Of course to start, it will not be deficit-neutral. Anyone with common sense knows that it will take money to get this thing rolling. As for the projection in the article, that would be unfortunate, but I think that it would be reasonable. It doesn't specify how much per year it would be exactly, because the truth is nobody knows. But it's a safe assumption that it will start off high then lower over time... but it depends on too many factors.

[Bond]

Originally Posted by TheGame

Initially it will not be enough to cover the costs, you're right. Tax dollars will give birth to this program.

So, if one already possesses private health insurance, and wants nothing to do with a public option, is it moral to require that that person pay for the public option through mandated taxation?

If it becomes the standard type of healthcare for the country and private insurance is pushed into being something for the wealthy.. then it will eventually get to the point where it pays for itself.

How would it pay for itself if the program simply had more citizens who wish to opt-in?

Though it will pay for itself without pushing for making a profit, and without dealing with as much upper management as private health insurance has. Which will keep the costs at a lower then average rate (in theory).

Statistically speaking, workers in health care management are significantly underpaid compared to management in other fields with similar education levels (MBAs, fields such as financial companies, accounting firms, etc).

Is it not possible that the reason why health care is so expensive is because of excessive government intervention (as the graphs I originally posted eluded to)?

Now, if it fails to become the standard, and private health insurance companies find a way to keep their price and quality comparable.. then the public option will be pushed into a corner and would be like Prof S's "Catastrophic Care" which will only deal with cases private insurance reasonably would not want to handle. If this happens, tax dollars will continue to pay for it, but it would still address issues that people have with the healthcare system as-is.

Okay (I wanted to make sure to quote every single paragraph so nothing was taken "out of context").

I would not mind either result.

Okay.

The biggest fear I have about the public option, however, is that the governemnt will not play fair with it and continue to push private health insurance into failure by directly making changes in laws that make it impossible for them to compete. As long as the public option remains an OPTION, its win win.

This is the exact problem with medicare and medicaid, I hope you realize. The assumption with medicare and medicaid is that the government burdens the majority of the cost of the programs, but this is false. Rather, the majority, sixty cents on every dollar, is paid for by hospitals and health systems that must treat medicare and medicaid patients. Do you see that this is one of the reasons why insurance premiums are so high for private paying customers?

As you (and prof) mentioned earlier in the thread, loosening up regulations on private health insurance would do some good. However I don't feel that it would help without the public option playing some role in it. My problem with a "Catastrophic Care" type thing is that there's no potential for it to pay for itself whatsoever. If the public option morphs into that, we can at lest say we tried to save government money.

The theory of insurance is to save the end consumer money by pooling together similar risk exposures. This is why insurance companies are picky when choosing customers, otherwise, the theory of insurance collapses as the risk exposures are no longer similar in nature, which would in turn no longer save the end consumer money. If the public option were to accept any consumer, with varying risk exposures, the option would not operate in the traditional form of an "insurance company." Therefore, how do you propose that the option operate? How would it be able to pay out the money necessary if too many of the consumers had highly correlated risks, or were prone to have the same risk over and over again?

That would depend completly on how sucsessfull the program is as I stated above. Of course to start, it will not be deficit-neutral. Anyone with common sense knows that it will take money to get this thing rolling. As for the projection in the article, that would be unfortunate, but I think that it would be reasonable. It doesn't specify how much per year it would be exactly, because the truth is nobody knows. But it's a safe assumption that it will start off high then lower over time... but it depends on too many factors.

Okay.

[TheGame]

Originally Posted by Bond

So, if one already possesses private health insurance, and wants nothing to do with a public option, is it moral to require that that person pay for the public option through mandated taxation?

That depends on if they're satisfied with the state of their insurance. Unfortunately, this is a democracy, so the majority of the people will have a say in what tax dollars should be spent for and what it shouldn't. By people elecing Obama president they have voted for healthcare reform, by people allowing democrats to have so many seats in the house and senate they have voted for healthcare reform, and polls have shown that most people are for a public option for healthcare.

I don't want to pay for a lot of programs that I will never use, but I dont' disagree with the process that got things to this point. I believe that healthcare is a right, not a luxury. And like any rights I feel that its moral for it to be protected by the law.

How would it pay for itself if the program simply had more citizens who wish to opt-in?

Because people who opt in would have to pay a set premium to get the insurance.

Statistically speaking, workers in health care management are significantly underpaid compared to management in other fields with similar education levels (MBAs, fields such as financial companies, accounting firms, etc).

Is it not possible that the reason why health care is so expensive is because of excessive government intervention (as the graphs I originally posted eluded to)?

It is very possible. This is why I promote them going about it a different way other then making more adjustments to private healthcare itself. Making a public option sets a standard for them to try and reach, trying to manipulate private insurance directly can yield questionable results, and pin accountability for the failures of a private sector buisness on the government.

Government should support change, not enforce it on a private company.

This is the exact problem with medicare and medicaid, I hope you realize. The assumption with medicare and medicaid is that the government burdens the majority of the cost of the programs, but this is false. Rather, the majority, sixty cents on every dollar, is paid for by hospitals and health systems that must treat medicare and medicaid patients. Do you see that this is one of the reasons why insurance premiums are so high for private paying customers?

I'll be perfectly honest with you, I don't understand this question as you have worded it. Are you asking me if private insurance companies are forced to raise their prices because there are people on medicaid and medicare?

The theory of insurance is to save the end consumer money by pooling together similar risk exposures. This is why insurance companies are picky when choosing customers, otherwise, the theory of insurance collapses as the risk exposures are no longer similar in nature, which would in turn no longer save the end consumer money.

correction

The theory of insurance is to make the most money by pooling together similar risk exposures. This is why insurance companies are picky when choosing customers, otherwise, the theory of insurance collapses as the risk exposures are no longer similar in nature, which would in turn no longer making as much money.

It depends on perception. You feel like they're doing it to save the customers money, I feel like they handle it that way to turn a profit. Both things could be true for some private insurance companies. But before I give a full reply, lets go to the meat of your question:

If the public option were to accept any consumer, with varying risk exposures, the option would not operate in the traditional form of an "insurance company." Therefore, how do you propose that the option operate? How would it be able to pay out the money necessary if too many of the consumers had highly correlated risks, or were prone to have the same risk over and over again?

They could do something that most private healthcare companies don't do these days.. and that's run the company with integrity, and with the health of their customers in mind. The pricing will be reasonable, but not made with profiting in mind. And when someone who is covered actually does get sick, they won't have to worry about the public option going over their health history to find an excuse to drop care.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u-hUVzcOTMo

(I can't watch youtube at work, so I can't say for 100% sure if I linked the right video.)

As for the bottom line costs for the consumers, its very much possible that private insurance companies will be able to pull off comparable prices. There's even a possiility that the public option could turn out to be the expensive option (for the monthly premium anyway). But the point of the option is to not deny people based on the state of their health, and to actually take care of people when they do become sick. Which our current insurance companies do not specialize in.

[Professor S]

Originally Posted by TheGame

Once again another thing that I addressed in the last post I made but didn't quote directly. But I'll just quote myself for the sake of not having you scroll back up again.

"Ok to clarify this, there's two ways I see private health insurance going if the public option is created.

1) Private insurance will try to compete with the public option by offering better quality at a more reasonable price.
2) Private insurance will not be able to compete with the quality that the public option offers at it's price, so it will move into being something only available to wealthy people.

If option one happens, and private insurance becomes more affordable, and they become more focused on quality and legitamate coverage.. then the health care system is fixed. Even if the public option sucks enough that private is still viable, it will force private insurance to make a change for a good to keep their base.

If option two happens, and private insurance pretty much dies and becomes something that only wealthy people will dish out the money for. Then it just proves that private insurance was broken to begin with. And I'd be the first to say good riddens.

The way I see it, if the public option isn't better then what is offered now.. or if the private companies are willing to make the changes they need to compete.. then people will not switch to it. In the end its an option.. if its not a better option then we have now, then there's no reason to switch."

In my opininon its win-win, if its relitively bad compared to what private insurance is willing to offer, it will only be for extreme cases that private inurance refuses to touch. But, if private insurance doesn't get their act together enough to compete, then it will become something bigger and private insurance will likely be pushed into something that the wealthy use only.

Game, I already addressed the illogical nature of your points one and two multiple time in this thread. Re-posting old arguments that we've already answered does not make our responses not exist.

It's not my or Bond's fault if you refuse to see them, or answer "Haha, Ok..." and then continue with your nonsensical argument ignoring the ideas and evidence placed in front of you. You are oblivious and I think perhaps have some kind of pathological disorder.

[TheGame]

Originally Posted by Professor S

You are oblivious and I think perhaps have some kind of pathological disorder.

Nah I just think you're getting old and can't accept that ideas other then yours work. And you don't seem to understand that I'm not in direct opposition to your concepts and ideas. You refuse to acknowlege that when I have an opinion supporting the public option that you disagree with, that I'm not using that idea as a direct arguement to what you have said. You don't seem to understand that I'm the only one here being open minded, and you are the only one being completly closed minded. You don't understand that you have no basis for bashing the logic of my posts and you have yet to present a valid example that shows otherwise.

And lastly, you don't understand that this whole discussion is about different concepts and ideas about how to fix healthcare, and that its based 100% off of opinion.

So yeah, if you feel like I ignored any of your points against private insurance feel free to bring it back up. But I think I've noted very clearly the things I agree with and disagree with. For opinions and facts that I do agree with, I usually don't waste as much time touching on.

[Professor S]

And lastly, you don't understand that this whole discussion is about different concepts and ideas about how to fix healthcare, and that its based 100% off of opinion.

No, a discussion is a EXCHANGE of ideas, and when you refuse to acknowledge another person's ideas and then IGNORE them when those ideas expose your own as folly, that is called having a speech or at the very best, a conversation with yourself. Also, opinions can change in the face of logical argument and contradictory evidence. This is what Socrates meant when he intended his form of debate to be "enlightening". You "style" enlightens nothing, and your ideas couldn't be less clear. Opinions are like assholes: everyone has one so in the having having one is meaningless. Those who treat their opinions with respect are the ones treated with some level of seriousness.

So yeah, if you feel like I ignored any of your points against private insurance feel free to bring it back up. But I think I've noted very clearly the things I agree with and disagree with. For opinions and facts that I do agree with, I usually don't waste as much time touching on.

I don't need to bring them back up, you need to recognize what I've already written IF you wish to have a normal conversation about... well... anything. And if you'd care to pay attention to anything we've said to you these many pages of thread, you'd see that we're not talking about the ideas you agree with, we're talking about your refusal to acknowledge/respond to any argument that contradicts yours on it's own terms. See, this is what I mean when I say you are oblivious.

Say what you will about my ideas, I certainly am no expert, but I at least acknowledge the ideas of others when in debate and that is certainly more respect than you've given anyone else in this conversation.

Nah I just think you're getting old and can't accept that ideas other then yours work.

No, we've exposed how you're ideas DON'T work and I guess you're too young to understand that (see how silly that is?). I'm open to ideas that work as soon as you propose one that has half a chance of providing universal care without sabotaging the quality of care for the vast majority of American citizens.

And you don't seem to understand that I'm not in direct opposition to your concepts and ideas. You refuse to acknowlege that when I have an opinion supporting the public option that you disagree with, that I'm not using that idea as a direct arguement to what you have said. You don't seem to understand that I'm the only one here being open minded, and you are the only one being completly closed minded. You don't understand that you have no basis for bashing the logic of my posts and you have yet to present a valid example that shows otherwise.

You don't seem to understand that when a doctor prescribes you meds, you are supposed to take them.

Originally Posted by TheGame

I follow the logic of your post from begining to end. I would rather not have a conversation on risk pooling though..

LOL!! Of course you would! GOODNIGHT, EVERYBODY. PLAY ME OUT, PORKY!

[TheGame]

Originally Posted by Professor S

No, a discussion is a EXCHANGE of ideas, and when you refuse to acknowledge another person's ideas and then IGNORE them when those ideas expose your own as folly, that is called having a speech or at the very best, a concversation with yourself. So congratulations, you've achieve rhetorical masturbation.

No, we've exposed how you're ideas DON'T work and I guess you're too understand that. I'm open to ideas that work as soon as you propose one that has half a chance.

You've exposed for a fact that my ideas don't work? How do you define 'working'? How do I define 'working'? And I've acknowleged every point you've made before.

I don't need to bring them back up, you need to recognize what I've already written IF you wish to have a normal conversation about... well... anything. Say what you will about my ideas, I certainly am no expert, but I at least acknowledge the ideas of others when in debate and that is certainly more respect than you've given anyone else in this conversation.

I'm not sure what thread you have been reading, but its not this one apparently. The only examples you provided of things I ignored were invalid. I feel like I've acknowleged every point you have made on some level or another. You should give up on making this point unless you have something constructive to show for it.

When you guys tried to call me out on saying bond is replying out of context, I gave full valid examples of this. If you feel like I'm ignoring a point (even though I know I haven't), then feel free to bring it back up. Otherwise you should just give up on this point.

You have had nothing legitamate to add to this conversation for a long time.

You don't seem to understand that when a doctor prescribes you meds, you are supposed to take them.

LOL!! Of course you would!

Yup I didn't want to discuss it at work. The thing about the public option that makes it unlike normal insurance is that there is no effort to work with other insurance companies to establish a reasonable service level. It appeals to high risk people (and not just health risk, financial also) because they otherwise would have no other option. But unlike your "Catastrophic Care" idea it won't be ONLY for high risk people.

I find it funny that in your own idea, you presented an option that would have no choice but to be carried by tax payers forever. Granted that is a risk pool that some non profit heavily state supported programs do take on. But that is fundamentally different from a public option. Usually non-profit tax supported insurance options that deal with high risk patents will not even be available for lower risk customers to pay for, and they usually don't play off of the fact that normal private insurance is not legitamate insurance to pull in more people and more revenue.