America Votes 2008

[Professor S]

Originally Posted by KillerGremlin

I thought Obama's Grant Park speech was pretty weak. But the guy looks exhausted, and I'm sure most of it was improvised. But I didn't vote for the guy because of his speeches. Already Obama is saying he wants to free prisoners from Guantanamo Bay and start giving people there fair trials in American Courts. That's some good stuff. Guantanamo Bay = unconstitutional.

Hate to break it to you, but its not. Its not even technically against international law, as the Geneva accords only cover uniformed combatants representing a sovereign nation.

And by the way, it was our left leaning "constitutional friends" in the Supreme Court that ruled that local governments can force homeowners to sell to large corporations because it increases the tax base. It was the conservative judges that voted against it. The Supreme Court is where the constitution is dying, not the legislative branch. This was the main reason why I was against Obama, as he has publicly stated that the Constitution "doesn't go far enough", which ignores the entire point of the document (a list of what the government WILL NOT do). If Obama's presidency fails, which I sincerely hope it doesn't, the legislation can be fixed by a change in power. Supreme Court justices are lifetime appointments by the President and their effect will be felt for two generations, if not more.

EDIT: I removed my prt about the patriot act, as I think it would have taken the discussion away from the topic.

[KillerGremlin]

Originally Posted by Professor S

Hate to break it to you, but its not. Its not even technically against international law, as the Geneva accords only cover uniformed combatants representing a sovereign nation.

And by the way, it was our left leaning "constitutional friends" in the Supreme Court that ruled that local governments can force homeowners to sell to large corporations because it increases the tax base. It was the conservative judges that voted against it. The Supreme Court is where the constitution is dying, not the legislative branch. This was the main reason why I was against Obama, as he has publicly stated that the Constitution "doesn't go far enough", which ignores the entire point of the document (a list of what the government WILL NOT do). If Obama's presidency fails, which I sincerely hope it doesn't, the legislation can be fixed by a change in power. Supreme Court justices are lifetime appointments by the President and their effect will be felt for two generations, if not more.

EDIT: I removed my prt about the patriot act, as I think it would have taken the discussion away from the topic.

Fair enough. I'm not going to pretend to know enough about foreign policy and Supreme Court legislation regarding this subject.

I just know that Guantanamo Bay sounds bogus from what I have read.

[Professor S]

Originally Posted by KillerGremlin

Fair enough. I'm not going to pretend to know enough about foreign policy and Supreme Court legislation regarding this subject.

I just know that Guantanamo Bay sounds bogus from what I have read.

Legally its not bogus, or at least not yet. Morally and ethically? Well, thats another conversation and a very long and difficult one at that. Personally I'm for GITMO, but I also think some aspects of it need to change, as I don't believe that people should be held indefinitely with no evidence, but I also don't believe that Constitutional rights or Habeus Corpus should be conveyed to possible terrorists and non-citizen's either.

There needs to be a middle ground where the detainees are afforded some form of recourse but not to the point that it dierectly parallels our legal system. What makes up that middle ground, I couldn't tell you.

[Jason1]

Hopefully Obama brings back that tax on 1 million dollar or more estates. Dead people dont know they are paying taxes...

[Professor S]

Originally Posted by Jason1

Hopefully Obama brings back that tax on 1 million dollar or more estates. Dead people dont know they are paying taxes...

Estate taxes destroy American wealth and PREVENT the middle class and lower classes from advancing their status and wealth. Essentially, if you like the way the US class system currently works, if you want to call it clas system, then you should LOVE estate taxes, because they maintain the status quo, keep rich people rich and poor people poor.

On the surface estate taxes seem somewhat reasonable, but like most non-income tax systems, once you take a hard look and see how they are applied, the gilding quickly wears thin.

If you would like to know how in detail, I'd be happy to tell you, but you have a habit of skimming my posts and I'd prefer not to write the example if it's not going to be read as it is a personal anecdote I care deeply about and changed my view of government forever. And I've written about it before, but that doesn't mean anyone bothered reading it.

[Jason1]

No, I really am somewhat curious as to how taxing a dead rich guy could possibly hurt the middle class and poor people. Im allready calling conservative bullshit on whatever you post next, but I'll at least read it.

[Professor S]

Originally Posted by Jason1

No, I really am somewhat curious as to how taxing a dead rich guy could possibly hurt the middle class and poor people. Im allready calling conservative bullshit on whatever you post next, but I'll at least read it.

LOL! Well, thanks for the courtesy. The reason why estate taxes work in reverse of what you think is this:

Estate taxes don't tax dead people, they tax the inheritors and prevent the transfer of wealth from one generation to the next and taxes the same money twice as taxes have already been paid on that estate. Here's how it works, at least in the case of my family.

My parents and grandparents bought into the rural suburbs of Philadelphia back in the late 1960's. My parents were not what you would call rich, my father being a construction worker and my mom a teacher/social worker. My grandfather and grandmother worked at a non-profit trade school.

My parents bought their house for $36,000.00 on 5 acres and that was a stretch for them at the time, and my grandparents bought about 20+ acres for not that much more.

When my grandmother died, my parents inherited the land and had to pay taxes on the value of the property at its current value, not what they were lucky enough to pay in 1968. So when estate taxes, federal, state and local income tax, capital gains, and every other tax were levied on my parents, they owed well over $100,000.00, if not more (they never told me the final amount).

So this "harmless" tax system, that only effects the "rich", forced my middle income parents to take out a second mortgage to cover the taxes that were due in a few motnhs, and then to pay off the taxes my parents had to sell my grandmother's farm which had been in the family for 30 years.

Guess who bought the property? A rich developer who then sub-divided the land, leveled the house that was built in 1706, and slapped up 15 McMansions all next to each other and made millions off of the deal.

So in essence, the estate taxation system combined with all the rest of the taxes ripped wealth from the middle class and handed it to the rich. This is what progressive taxes achieve: The status quo.

Keep in mind, I'm not even mentioning how the local government tried to ruin the whole deal, the deal my parents needed to pay the taxes to keep their house, by extorting the developer for 10 free acres. This is just about how taxes fucked my parents by forcing them to sell and probably thousands of people in the same circumstances.

Taxes on investment wealth prevent the transfer of wealth from generation to the next, and they force people to do things they otherwise would not. My parents wanted to turn the property into a horse farm. Now its an eyesore filled with yuppie douchebags who complain about the fact they can see my dad's work truck from the road. When you work all your life to leave your children with more than you had, it should be a blessing to them, not a curse that creates a financial nightmare spanning two years of lawyers, accountants, developers and local and federal agancies.

Jason, I'd just like you to keep this in mind when thinking about taxes and government control, supporting them because they're intended to do good: Actions always have unintended circumstances and intentions are meaningless when reality comes knocking.

[Jason1]

That sounds like a mildly sad story, but overall im sure the Estate tax is a good thing.

[Professor S]

Originally Posted by Jason1

That sounds like a mildly sad story, but overall im sure the Estate tax is a good thing.

Ok, you asked me to explain how the estate tax perpetuates the status quo and inhibits the growth of wealth in the middle class, and I gave you a specific example.

Your counter?

"I'm sure the Estate tax is a good thing"

...

*sigh*

Maybe when it happens to you you'll start to change your mind. Until then, I think discussing politics with you is pretty pointless. There is a reason why most conservatives started out as liberals in their youth. I have a feeling your fall from grace will be especially hard with the amount of blind trust you put in the federal government.

[Jason1]

I only put blind trust in a Liberal government. We'll see how well Obama can mop up the Bush mistakes.

[KillerGremlin]

Originally Posted by Jason1

I only put blind trust in a Liberal government. We'll see how well Obama can mop up the Bush mistakes.

I wish I was a CEO at AIG.