Obama Chooses Joe Biden as VP

[Vampyr]

Originally Posted by Bond

Just a quick clarification: McCain is not wealthy. His wife inherited a beer bottling company. That's where the money comes from.

Sometimes I wish these threads wouldn't get so lengthy so quickly. It's so hard to jump in after a few pages and reply to everything.

So if I were to inherit a ton of money, that would make me not wealthy, even though I had...a ton of money?

And this isn't about him having money, it's about about being out of touch with reality because of it.

@Prof S. your post didn't point out a single thing McCain has done or said to prove he -is- in touch with reality, you just pushed my points to the side as "quoting Obama's ads", and said McCain was admirable.

I fail to see how him not being able to answer the simple question of "do you think this is right or wrong" makes him admirable. I think it makes him crooked.

And yeah, I could quote some Obama ads, like the one that has John McCain saying "Our economy isn't headed to a recession", but I know -that- one was taken out of context, his house comment was not.

And I'm sure McCain though "Well, if you taken into consideration that everything got REALLY bad after 9/11, then greatly improved, and if I word things just right, I can say that the economy improved." Seriously Professor, you're amazing with facts, but I think you're terrible at reading peoples intentions.

And the difference? Obama can actually pull of being cool, and everyone knows who Ludacris is. No one knows who Daddy Yankee is. They may be doing the same thing, but McCain is obvious that he isn't really comfortable in the situation, and he's just doing it because some campaign manager said it was a good idea.

[Professor S]

Originally Posted by Vampyr

So if I were to inherit a ton of money, that would make me not wealthy, even though I had...a ton of money?

And this isn't about him having money, it's about about being out of touch with reality because of it.

@Prof S. your post didn't point out a single thing McCain has done or said to prove he -is- in touch with reality, you just pushed my points to the side as "quoting Obama's ads", and said McCain was admirable.

No, my comments were to show you how your eviudence for his being out of touch are pretty erediculous. Happening to be rich and have houses isn't proof that anyone is out of touch. About the source of his wealth, there is a big difference in formative experience between someone who grows up with ealth and someone who grew up an army brat, spent five years as a POW and nearly 30 serving his nation, most of the time relying only on his salary as a Senator.

I fail to see how him not being able to answer the simple question of "do you think this is right or wrong" makes him admirable. I think it makes him crooked.

No, it doesn't. The question was crooked, silly and not justified by any background. If your asked a question when the questions assumes facts that you don't know are correct, why would you answer it? What context is being omitted in this obviously biased question?

And yeah, I could quote some Obama ads, like the one that has John McCain saying "Our economy isn't headed to a recession", but I know -that- one was taken out of context, his house comment was not.

Our ecomomy isn't headed into a recession. Its had positive growth every quarter for as long as I can remember and went up over 3% last querter. if you think that means we're headed towards a recession, you don't know what a recession is.

And I'm sure McCain though "Well, if you taken into consideration that everything got REALLY bad after 9/11, then greatly improved, and if I word things just right, I can say that the economy improved." Seriously Professor, you're amazing with facts, but I think you're terrible at reading peoples intentions.

And I think you take things the way you want to view them. I already stated my issue with McCain's second statement was that he pandered. No question about it. He should have stuck to his guns and made the bold and risky statement of truth, and thats the fact that we're not in a recession, we are doing better that we were in the early 2000's instead of quibbling over whether it was 2000 or 2001. The economy was terrible all through the early00's and the fact is we ARE doing much better today even during our slow down.

And the difference? Obama can actually pull of being cool, and everyone knows who Ludacris is. No one knows who Daddy Yankee is. They may be doing the same thing, but McCain is obvious that he isn't really comfortable in the situation, and he's just doing it because some campaign manager said it was a good idea.

Well I'm glad Obama can pull off being cool. I suppose you can excuse someone for panswering when they "pull it off" but not when they can't? Thats like saying its ok to steal if you get away with it.

Opinions olike this only show complete bias. Its ok for one candidate and not for the other because you like one and not the other... good for you.

I wish both candidates wouldn't do it. Its insulting but unfortunately deemed necessary in today's political climate.

[Professor S]

I wanted to edit out the insuting comment at the end of my post, but for some reason I can't edit it. I apolgize for the insulting tone, I just don't understand how you can overlook pandering by one candidate, yet condemn the other for the same thing.

[TheGame]

Prof S you're being overly defensive about Mccain in my opinion. You're a good example of someone who's completly sold, I doubt there's anything that'll change your mind in the next few months.

Like I said earlier in the thread though, I'm in a situation where I see very few people who actually support John Mccain. I've heard the speeches, and have been following Mccain for a long time... But honestly, I've probably watched it from biased sources with a biased mindset, but at this point I can't think of any good reason why I'd want to vote for Mccain.

So to clarify your stance, why do you think Mccain should be our next president? If possible, leave comparisions to Obama out of it and mud slinging. Just look at Mccain for himself and what he is and what he stands for. Why would you vote for him? What does he bring to the table that you know from history would make him the most suitable for this job?

I guess side questions could be be, are you a supporter of what bush has done in the last 8 years? If so, what would you say Mccain is carrying on from bush that you like? If not, what things do you think Mccain is going to change?

I'm conserative, but I prefer not to define myself by a party. Since defining myself like that implies I would vote with them no matter what.

[Professor S]

Originally Posted by TheGame

Prof S you're being overly defensive about Mccain in my opinion. You're a good example of someone who's completly sold, I doubt there's anything that'll change your mind in the next few months.

Like I said earlier in the thread though, I'm in a situation where I see very few people who actually support John Mccain. I've heard the speeches, and have been following Mccain for a long time... But honestly, I've probably watched it from biased sources with a biased mindset, but at this point I can't think of any good reason why I'd want to vote for Mccain.

So to clarify your stance, why do you think Mccain should be our next president? If possible, leave comparisions to Obama out of it and mud slinging. Just look at Mccain for himself and what he is and what he stands for. Why would you vote for him? What does he bring to the table that you know from history would make him the most suitable for this job?

I guess side questions could be be, are you a supporter of what bush has done in the last 8 years? If so, what would you say Mccain is carrying on from bush that you like? If not, what things do you think Mccain is going to change?

I'm conserative, but I prefer not to define myself by a party. Since defining myself like that implies I would vote with them no matter what.

Now you're changing the subject. The topic at hand was whether or not McCain was guilty of being out-of-touch in any special way. Vampyr made his claims and I refuted them. If you'd like an explanation as to why I'm for McCain, I'm all for it.

I think I've been quite clear on why I'm a supporter of McCain through my openess when it comes to my stance on issues.

1) Iraq - We need to stay in until the job is done. Thats McCain's stance and thats been my stance from the beginning. If this were the only issue that I agreed with McCain on, I would be his supporter compared to Obama.

2) Economy - I have made it clear that I am a supply-sider since I came on these boards. Low taxes plus low spending. I know Obama has talked a big game when it comes to giving tax breaks to 95% of the economy, and just raising taxes on the rich, which is idiocy if you want ot build the American economy since they create the jobs, but he also is in favor of an obscene spending bill. Most economists and newspapers agree that his policies would only increase our national debt... or Obama would do what I expect and say "Whoops! Looks like you're going to have to pay more too!"

His consistent voting against spending is one of the things I support the most about McCain, and separates him from the Republicans of the last 8 years and Bush especially who has had an open wallet policy, and not just for the war. To be honest,. war spending is a drop in the ocean when it comes to our debt.

3) Experience - He has proven to be one of the \most effective and respected Senators in American history. He has a wealth of experience in both the economy and foreign relations. He has seen it all before, from Vietnam, to the Cold War, Peristrioka(sp?), the Iraq War. He has the context to translate world and domestic events.

4) Independence - McCain does what he feels is right. Does that mean he's never guilty of pandering or standing behind his party at times? Of course not, but no one is. But his record of bucking his party's stances that he disagrees with is long and strong. People try and debunk this by saying that he voted with Bush 90% of the time... well Obama voted with Bush 60% of the time. If you don't know what those issues were, the number is meaningless. Political statistics exist to fool people, like polls, and thats why I rarely use them.

5) Diplomacy - When the Georgia invasion took place, McCain was the first to analyze and understand the nature of it immediately. Bush didn't, the media didn't, and Obama didn't. McCain did. Talk without the legitimate threat of action does nothing but empower nations that want to exert dominance, like Russia and Iran. I believe McCain understands this more than any other candidate today.

For the record my perfect ticket is McCain/Powell, and I've made that clear FOR YEARS on this forum in presidential talk.

To be honest, if at this point you don't unbderstand why I'm for McCain, you haven't listened to me, McCain or both of us. Its been quite clear for some time. Now add to the that the fact that he's running against Obama, who I view as a borderline marxist, and it's a no-brainer.

[Professor S]

Almost forgot:

6) Health care - Single payer would be the biggest mistake in the history of American domestic policy. McCain's policy on this is a $5,000 tax credit for families to get their own health care, and be able to choose the kind they weant, which keeps competition in place, and competition increases the quality of the product. Compared to Obama's policy, which I believe he stated would only save the average family under $3,000 a year in health care costs and give them little to no choice. But If I'm wrong on the number, please let me know

The choice remains with the individual, and philisophoically, that is very important to me.

[TheGame]

Originally Posted by Professor S

To be honest, if at this point you don't unbderstand why I'm for McCain, you haven't listened to me, McCain or both of us. Its been quite clear for some time. Now add to the that the fact that he's running against Obama, who I view as a borderline marxist, and it's a no-brainer.

Honestly outside of this and the other two threads open here, I have been listening to you. The thing is though, I've found it to be clear that you dislike Obama more than you like Mccain. Even in your above post I asked for you to leave out Obama in your explanation if possible, which it does look like 'compared to your other posts' you tried. (/salute)

I was just looking for a clear viewpoint from a Mccain supporter. :P I am conservitive by my own beliefs, but I do not claim a party since what it implies is that I'd support them no matter what. I will openly admit that I did vote for bush in 2004, and I feel like at the time I voted for him that he was misleading about what he hoped to do in his second term.. And the events of his second term showed that he was misleading in his first to. So as it stands now I'm strongly against Mr. President.

I do have some comments though... For #1, your opinion on Iraq. In your personal opinion what would you define as the job being "finished" in Iraq? And do you honestly think we're going to reach this goal realistically with how we're handling the war out there now?

In my opinion, I don't see a resolution there anymore, I just see Americans endlessly babysitting the people there and endlessly causing a distraction for the rest of the middle east. I think eventually we just need to pull out and let them handle their own social issues. I think in time if we were to ever reach this so called "peace" in Iraq, that the other countries around them will simply turn on them and start killing them off again anyway.

As for the economy (only drawing references to Obama because you did), I don't think myself or my kids stand to benifit more from what Mccain wants to do. Obama seems to want big changes, but a lot of his changes are rooted in what America stood for in the first place. Being the true land of oppertunity, and being strongly in the interest of the middle/lower class people instead of trying to once again spread the gap between the middle and upper class.

As for experience, there's no denying that he has a lot of experience, but judging off of all the slip ups he's done and all the flip flopping on forgien policy.. And given the fact that I've seen him outright paint false pictures, or show lack of understanding for what is going on overseas.. I don't think that his experience is helping him much. I think he has good advisors for speeches, but when it comes to live answers he sounds very clueless and I can't respect him at all for that.

As for Mccain's "independence", I think that's proven to be a bad quality for him, because his independent stances (that I have seen) go against what most americans think/want. That reminds me a lot of some other bad president we recently, or maybe even still have. As for him voting with bush 90% of the time, that's not shocking to me, nor is Obama voting with him 60%.

The way things stand, I did vote for bush to begin with for a reason, so I'm not completly against all his views either. Like I said, I am conservitive. But sadly in today's world, the bad is going to over shadow the good. Mccain openly supports bush on things I strongly disagree with, which is bad. In fact, hearing obama voted with him 60% of the time shows that Obama is reasonable and knowing that makes me more comfortable with my decision as it stands now.

[Jason1]

Okay, staying in Iraq until "the job is done" is rediculous. Mcain has said we should stay in Iraq 100 years if we have to. He backs this statement up by referring to the fact that we still have troops in Germany and Japan after world war II. WAKE UP PEOPLE, Germany and Japan arent Muslim countries! Thats the difference! As long as we have troops in Iraq, there will be terrorists plotting to kill americans. It really is that simple. Pull out of Iraq = stops terrorism.

And off shore drilling isnt a short term answer, and it isnt even a long term answer. Its a lose - lose situation. People act like off shore drilling will all of a sudden bring our gas prices down. Not going to happen. At the rates we are currently consuming, the worlds oil reserves will be completley gone in 50 years. Thats a scary though to me, we need to end our dependence on all oil, not drill ourselves out of the problem. We cant just drill more and expect this problem to go away forever.

[Professor S]

Originally Posted by Jason1

Okay, staying in Iraq until "the job is done" is rediculous. Mcain has said we should stay in Iraq 100 years if we have to. He backs this statement up by referring to the fact that we still have troops in Germany and Japan after world war II. WAKE UP PEOPLE, Germany and Japan arent Muslim countries! Thats the difference! As long as we have troops in Iraq, there will be terrorists plotting to kill americans. It really is that simple. Pull out of Iraq = stops terrorism.

Two answer both your and Game's questions about the war: We leave when there is a strong, self-governing and self-sustaining government to fill the void. Its that simple. And Jason, your simplistic argument rfeflects more wishful thinking than reality. Most dems and republicans agree that if we left now Iraq would fall into chaos.

And off shore drilling isnt a short term answer, and it isnt even a long term answer. Its a lose - lose situation. People act like off shore drilling will all of a sudden bring our gas prices down. Not going to happen. At the rates we are currently consuming, the worlds oil reserves will be completley gone in 50 years. Thats a scary though to me, we need to end our dependence on all oil, not drill ourselves out of the problem. We cant just drill more and expect this problem to go away forever.

Who do you think saying that it will? Not anyone running for president. Both candidates want to invest in alternative fuels, but only one has a realistic plan to fill the gap until we get there. Thats McCain. There is not magic alternative fuel wand that will fix our energy crisis. We need a COMPREHENSIVE policy expoiting all reserves that we have an developing more for the day when we can move beyond carbon.

And simply ANNOUNCING we have opened up areas to drilling will plummet gas prices. When Bush annouced the removal of the presidential ban, gas started dropping, just because global speculation got nervous. Its basic economics.

[KillerGremlin]

Originally Posted by Jason1

And off shore drilling isnt a short term answer, and it isnt even a long term answer. Its a lose - lose situation. People act like off shore drilling will all of a sudden bring our gas prices down. Not going to happen. At the rates we are currently consuming, the worlds oil reserves will be completley gone in 50 years. Thats a scary though to me, we need to end our dependence on all oil, not drill ourselves out of the problem. We cant just drill more and expect this problem to go away forever.

I hate to burst your bubble (and thousands of other people who lurk around the dark corners of the Internet) but if there was an efficient, cheap and easy alternative to oil you would be using it right now. The fact of the matter is the eternal combustion engine is cheap and efficient. More to the point, there are millions of cars on the road right now, and they all need gas. The American economy runs on oil, the American war machine runs on oil, and so does the rest of the world. That said, we will need oil for at least the next 10 years. I'd rather tap our resources (like Alaska) and maybe see gas dip in price. Actually, part of why gas is so expensive is because of our dependency on foreign oil. Foreign oil is a huge fucking problem; our government, the lobbyists, and the Saudis are having a huge circle jerk.

That said...I LOVEEEE alternative fuel. I'm on board, have been for the past 10 years. Yeah, in 4th or 5th fucking grade we did a project on how plastic bags use petrolium and how it increases oil prices and we need to find alternate fuel sources. Here's some fucking beef: nuclear power. The biggest problem with electric cars is....

Tada! Electricity comes from using OIL!

Electricity also can come from using nuclear power....as for excess nuclear waste? Me, personally, I think we should just blast the stuff into outer space but I'm sure there is a reason we have not done so yet.

I'm not so sure hydrogen or ethanol are good long-term solutions. And, right now solar cells suck ass sooo.....

Personally, on the subject of energy, I'd lean towards the guy who had the most money on nuclear power. And on finding a way to lean less of foreign oil.

[Professor S]

Originally Posted by TheGame

Honestly outside of this and the other two threads open here, I have been listening to you. The thing is though, I've found it to be clear that you dislike Obama more than you like Mccain. Even in your above post I asked for you to leave out Obama in your explanation if possible, which it does look like 'compared to your other posts' you tried. (/salute)

I was just looking for a clear viewpoint from a Mccain supporter. :P I am conservitive by my own beliefs, but I do not claim a party since what it implies is that I'd support them no matter what. I will openly admit that I did vote for bush in 2004, and I feel like at the time I voted for him that he was misleading about what he hoped to do in his second term.. And the events of his second term showed that he was misleading in his first to. So as it stands now I'm strongly against Mr. President.

I do have some comments though... For #1, your opinion on Iraq. In your personal opinion what would you define as the job being "finished" in Iraq? And do you honestly think we're going to reach this goal realistically with how we're handling the war out there now?

In my opinion, I don't see a resolution there anymore, I just see Americans endlessly babysitting the people there and endlessly causing a distraction for the rest of the middle east. I think eventually we just need to pull out and let them handle their own social issues. I think in time if we were to ever reach this so called "peace" in Iraq, that the other countries around them will simply turn on them and start killing them off again anyway.

As for the economy (only drawing references to Obama because you did), I don't think myself or my kids stand to benifit more from what Mccain wants to do. Obama seems to want big changes, but a lot of his changes are rooted in what America stood for in the first place. Being the true land of oppertunity, and being strongly in the interest of the middle/lower class people instead of trying to once again spread the gap between the middle and upper class.

As for experience, there's no denying that he has a lot of experience, but judging off of all the slip ups he's done and all the flip flopping on forgien policy.. And given the fact that I've seen him outright paint false pictures, or show lack of understanding for what is going on overseas.. I don't think that his experience is helping him much. I think he has good advisors for speeches, but when it comes to live answers he sounds very clueless and I can't respect him at all for that.

As for Mccain's "independence", I think that's proven to be a bad quality for him, because his independent stances (that I have seen) go against what most americans think/want. That reminds me a lot of some other bad president we recently, or maybe even still have. As for him voting with bush 90% of the time, that's not shocking to me, nor is Obama voting with him 60%.

The way things stand, I did vote for bush to begin with for a reason, so I'm not completly against all his views either. Like I said, I am conservitive. But sadly in today's world, the bad is going to over shadow the good. Mccain openly supports bush on things I strongly disagree with, which is bad. In fact, hearing obama voted with him 60% of the time shows that Obama is reasonable and knowing that makes me more comfortable with my decision as it stands now.

1) After reading this post, you're not a conservative. If you believe that anything that Obama says about the economy and taxes reflects what this country was founded on, your confusing the constitution with the communist manifesto. He is a redistribition of wealth, new deal liberal, and thats NOTHING new, just a reflection of past failed policies.

2) My policies has been obvious since I joined this forum, and most of them are reflected in McCain's policies. You should KNOW why I'm for McCain. There's no need for me to repeat it yet again. If I'm concentrating more on Obama its because:

a) There are a lot more vocal liberals on this forum than conservatives, so the topic has been Obama more than not. Plus the Dem convention just took place. Of course Obama will be the topic of conversation.

b) Obama is the unknown, not McCain. Plus, he stands for EVERYTHING I'm against and I believe an Obama presidency combined with a Pelosi and Reed controlled congress could transform out nation into something it was never intended to be, and never should be.

3) You pick on me for not being clear enough on why I support McCain... but where is your criticism of the Obama supportrers who spend most of their time criticizing the Republicans and voting more against Bush than anything else? Its non-existant.

4) In a two party system, the opposition is just as important as the person running. Your voting not just for something you believe in, but against something you DON'T.

I find your entire critique of my posiiton to be disingenuopus at best, and while you say you're a conservative, I don;t see any conservatove beliefs reflective in your views. Your support of Obama defies all conservative belief. I declare shenanigans.

[TheGame]

Originally Posted by Professor S

1) After reading this post, you're not a conservative. If you believe that anything that Obama says about the economy and taxes reflects what this country was founded on, your confusing the constitution with the communist manifesto. He is a redistribition of wealth, new deal liberal, and thats NOTHING new, just a reflection of past failed policies.

For one I am a conservative. Though if you're opinion that I'm not based on one election then that's your choice. And yes I would agree that Obama is definently not conservative, and I never said he was.. in fact he goes against the meaning of the word. But once again, that's why I don't define myself as a party, because eventually if someone gets into office and makes bad decisions, then someone needs to come in and clean up their mess.

Obama only appeals to me because I think that Bush did not do a good job. Even though Bush did bad I gave him a second chance because of social issues I agree with him on, and because I felt he'd handle the war better. I didn't know Bush couldn't make any realistic judgement on Iraq, and what really threw me off was how he is so much for linking Mexico, Canada, and the US more.

2) My policies has been obvious since I joined this forum, and most of them are reflected in McCain's policies. You should KNOW why I'm for McCain. There's no need for me to repeat it yet again.

And how many political threads have you seen me reply to? I'm only asking juding off of the DNC thread, Mccain VP thread, and this thread. Where you displayed being extremely anti Obama, and hardly could make any reasonable good case for Mccain.

If I'm concentrating more on Obama its because:

a) There are a lot more vocal liberals on this forum than conservatives, so the topic has been Obama more than not. Plus the Dem convention just took place. Of course Obama will be the topic of conversation.

When I look at most of what people are saying, they're directly attacking Mccain, then you turn around and try to place the spotlight on Obama quick without referencing the good in Mccain. And of course, most things that you claimed were good about him people quickly snapped back at and you'd leave it open ended with no answer. That's why I needed you to clarify it before.

b) Obama is the unknown, not McCain. Plus, he stands for EVERYTHING I'm against and I believe an Obama presidency combined with a Pelosi and Reed controlled congress could transform out nation into something it was never intended to be, and never should be.

And what would that be?

3) You pick on me for not being clear enough on why I support McCain... but where is your criticism of the Obama supportrers who spend most of their time criticizing the Republicans and voting more against Bush than anything else? Its non-existant.

That's obvious, its because I'm voting against Bush too. :P And sorry if you think I'm picking on you, if it helps I respect you a lot for being an open Mccain supporter. I kow he has a lot of supporters out there, but I've yet to sit down and have a conversation with one. In fact, outside of this forum and on the news itself, I've yet to see anyone claim openly to be a Mccain supporter.

4) In a two party system, the opposition is just as important as the person running. Your voting not just for something you believe in, but against something you DON'T.

And I can agree to that. But repeating what I said before, I knew from the gate you were against Obama and never questioned that. Nor do or did I expect to make any arguements that'd change you. I was just looking for a positive opinion on why you'd vote for Mccain.

I find your entire critique of my posiiton to be disingenuopus at best, and while you say you're a conservative, I don;t see any conservatove beliefs reflective in your views. Your support of Obama defies all conservative belief. I declare shenanigans.

Okay, then to make it clear. I'm pro life, anti gay marriage, I think that America should be proactive about war and squash problems before they get to big, instead of waiting for people to be fighting in our backyard. I'm also a christian, and I do not support any laws that go against my beliefs.. Which is a lot of what Democrats push for, which is why most of the time you're going to find I vote with the republicans.

But on the flip side, I'm not a millionaire. I'd consider myself in the lower to middle class tops as far as finances go, and I do support changes that I feel stand to benifit my group the most. From how I was raised, I had no choice but to work right out of HS, though I did go to college at the same time it didn't progress as easilly as I believe it should have.

I also believe that supporting the American people and giving them a good way of life is equally important as fighting to defend it. Not that I'm complaining about how we live now, but I do think that progress can be made.

And, while I said before that I'm all for being proactive on wars and squashing what could be considered threats, I feel that the war in Iraq itself started off of a false premise. And because of how the people will not stop fighting its obvious that Iraq never wanted our help. So in this case of war, I think we should back out of it in a timely manner, our presence there is causing more of a problem then its helping as far as gaining a resolution over there.

And I guess to further my views on war, I do not believe in political wars. I don't believe in wars aimed at one person or group, instead it should be focused on both the group and the people who support the group. If you're unwilling to kill the supporters, then there's no reason to fight because if they didn't want their leader bad enough they could simply have their own civil war and work out their own issues.

There that's my personal stance on politics, though a very dumbed down version without many examples.. But I'm not trying to write a term paper for the forums though. :P And as you may have noticed, my stance doesn't go in line with Mccain or Obama 100%, nor does it go alone with Democrats or Republicans 100%. The reason I'm voting for Obama right now, is because I belive he's is more capible of making the right decisions for the issues I feel are affecting me right now. And I'm well aware of what things I may regret.