Catholic church says not to take Bible as truth

Neo · 10-06-2005, 11:29 AM

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/article...811332,00.html

Quote:

The Catholic bishops of England, Wales and Scotland are warning their five million worshippers, as well as any others drawn to the study of scripture, that they should not expect “total accuracy” from the Bible.

“We should not expect to find in Scripture full scientific accuracy or complete historical precision,”...

....the first 11 chapters of Genesis, in which two different and at times conflicting stories of creation are told, are among those that this country’s Catholic bishops insist cannot be “historical”. At most, they say, they may contain “historical traces"

Ohhhhh......so you mean the Bible does contain contradictions and historical inaccuracies? Gee thanks, Bishop! And here I was trying to figure out which version of creation and which version of the flood I was supposed to believe!

GameMaster · 10-06-2005, 01:17 PM

I have to tip my hat to them for acknowledging the possibility of inconsistencies or bits of fiction within their sacred scrolls.

Acebot44 · 10-06-2005, 05:32 PM

Great, now that this issue is settled I won't have to hear any more crap on Intelligent Design.

BlueFire · 10-06-2005, 07:03 PM

Hmm..

I'm not one to speak for the Church, but..
I don't think they ever meant the Bible to be taken as complete and factual truth (especially Genesis, which is really Jewish folklore and was never meant to be taken word for word).

I'm not even Catholic and I knew that.

Bond · 10-06-2005, 07:05 PM

How is this news? Any dumbass should know the Bible is not taken as scientific fact by the vast majority of Catholics.

Typhoid · 10-06-2005, 07:13 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bond

How is this news? Any dumbass should know the Bible is not taken as scientific fact by the vast majority of Catholics.

I.

I love you.

Professor S · 10-06-2005, 07:20 PM

The idea of taking the Bible literally is actually a recent idea in relative terms. The oldest versions of Christianity, represented most closely today by Russian Orthodox, always took the Bible a book of parables in most cases. They are lessons to learn to live by, and not to take every word literally.

To take Neo's example, creation or Intelligent Design as a parable would follow in this type of argument.

The world was created in 7 days. Yes, we know that is not accurate measured in today's terms. But how long is a day to God? Or an hour or a minute? The measurement of time is a human creation, and not necessarily the only measurement. A single day to God might be a billion of our years. The point to take from it is that God created the universe, not that Cristians are trying to say that it took 7 days. Do some Christians take the Bible literally? Yes, but thats their weakness, not their religions. I find that when any religious people take their books literally, they tend to miss the intended lesson and use the text the legitimize their pre-determined beliefs and/or biases.

FYI - I do not believe in Creationism or intelligent design. I am a believer that the universe is infinite in space and time, as is God. I am a Deist (sp?), not a Christian.

The idea that the Catholic church, or any other church for that matter, accepts the idea of the Bible as a parable does not invalidate Christianity or religion.

Vampyr · 10-06-2005, 08:22 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Professor S

Yes, we know that is not accurate measured in today's terms.

We don't really know that.

And even when taking the Bible in the most unliteral and figurative of terms it is still highly unbelievable.

DISCLAIMER: I did read you're post and I am not calling you a Christian. That second part isn't directed at you.

GiMpY-wAnNaBe · 10-07-2005, 12:41 AM

i find it funny that the church had to clarify this to it's people. It does not take the thought process of a genius to realize that word of mouth and hand written copies tend to change over the course of hundreds of years.

Professor S · 10-07-2005, 01:48 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Vampyr

We don't really know that.

And even when taking the Bible in the most unliteral and figurative of terms it is still highly unbelievable.

Believability is relative, and dependent on your level of faith. What you find unbelievable, many feel is completely accurate and obvious. Just because you disblieve doesn't make you right, as well as their belief doesn't make them correct. Its about personal truth.

And Gimpy, the Bible has actually been purposefully changed multiple times over the years, with sections being added and removed over the centuries. The Catholic church has removed and changed a lot of the New and Old Testament, calling those section heretical, which is a contradiction in termsif you think about it.

Example, the Book of Enoch (yes, I've brought it up before) was once a part of the Bible. Check it out, its a fascinating and in depth read describing the events that caused The Biblical Flood. Very "wrathful" depictiuon of God, and it in fact QUOTES God of several occasions.

http://reluctant-messenger.com/1enoch01-60.htm

Neo · 10-07-2005, 11:10 AM

I grew up with people who did take it as the literal truth. They were very frightening.

What this really does is undercut the validity of the quotes the church does choose to regurgitate. They selectively pick which passages they think are true or that have some merit while ignoring all the rest. Admitting that your source material has problems doesn't serve to inspire the credibility of your teachings.

Vampyr · 10-07-2005, 07:00 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Neo

I grew up with people who did take it as the literal truth. They were very frightening.

What this really does is undercut the validity of the quotes the church does choose to regurgitate. They selectively pick which passages they think are true or that have some merit while ignoring all the rest. Admitting that your source material has problems doesn't serve to inspire the credibility of your teachings.

Same. I live in (and grew up in) a rural, conservative, religous sect of the nation. Around here it seems that the Bible is law. People consider every word and scripture of the Bible to be absolute truth, there are no metaphors or symbolism for them.

I do understand, however, that when read correctly the Bible is, especially the old Testament, a lot of metaphors. I still just choose not to believe it. I guess Faith and Spirituality just isn't my thing. I just can't accept the fact that there is some other realm (for lack of a better word) with an all knowing, all seeing, all powerful spirit guy that created everything from nothing. The mere notion is just laughable to me, personally.

Not just that, but I'm not so sure I want to go to the Heaven described in the Bible. Spending eternity worshipping God isn't appealing. And from what I get out of reading it, it's like you lose your identity in Heaven. I mean, if my mind or soul or whatever is altered to make me think an eternal state of worship is the shiz, I don't want that either. You aren't even you anymore. At least in Hell you know who you are.

And it may be very ironic, but the Bible is one of my favorite things to read. The stories are just interesting as Hell.

gekko · 10-07-2005, 09:25 PM

WTF is so funny? A tad bit of knowledge on the subject matter and you might realize this has been the Catholic church's teaching for years.

But it's not as fun attacking a subject you're educated on, is it?

Professor S · 10-08-2005, 02:51 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Vampyr

Not just that, but I'm not so sure I want to go to the Heaven described in the Bible. Spending eternity worshipping God isn't appealing. And from what I get out of reading it, it's like you lose your identity in Heaven. I mean, if my mind or soul or whatever is altered to make me think an eternal state of worship is the shiz, I don't want that either. You aren't even you anymore. At least in Hell you know who you are.

Worshipping God and losing your identity in your faith are two very different things. Yes, the Bible teaches you how to live your life, and in even secular cases it has succeeded in doing so. Our very sense of right and wrong is derived from the Bible whether you are religious or not.

But if you think the only way to establish an identity is through unrepentant sin, then I think you missed a lot of the message. I mean technically, if your Catholic at least, the Church has been giving out "get out of Hell free cards" for centuries. You can sin away, and still get through the pearly gates.

Personally, I think the world today would be absolutely frightening without the advent of Christianity. I may not believe that Jesus was our savior, but I do think he was a hell of a philosopher.

Ginkasa · 10-08-2005, 10:15 AM

I believe what he actually meant was they whend you do get to heaven (not necessarily while getting there) you're identity is taken away and you spend eternity just worshipping God unwillingly.

I think whether that's how heaven is like depends on belief...

But if heaven were like that, I think it would be more like you got there, see God, and have to worship His greatness because He's so great... You, yourself, would decide to worship Him for eternity because He's just that kind of guy...

But if you wouldn't choose to do that after seeing him, you probably wouldn't get into heaven, maybe, so...

That's how I would interpret it...