poll

[mickydaniels]

Originally Posted by Rndm_Perfection

If a being cannot be created from "nothing", then there must obviously have been a being there to make it?



And what created that special something?

I don't see what's so different about God and infinity.
No beginning and no end, is attributed to both.
Do you need to know what created him to believe in him? Do you need to know when he was born, and his approximate lifespan?
A perfect example to me is like trying to measure the distance from east to west. It just never ends.

Numbers 3 and 4 seem to make the most sense to me.
Things just can't pop out of the air. They have to come from something. Like the old chicken and egg argument. Which came first? Why does it matter? How did it get there?


Maybe this doesn't make sense to you but it makes perfect sense to me.

[The Duggler]

Originally Posted by mickydaniels

Numbers 3 and 4 seem to make the most sense to me.
Things just can't pop out of the air. They have to come from something. Like the old chicken and egg argument. Which came first? Why does it matter? How did it get there?


Maybe this doesn't make sense to you but it makes perfect sense to me.

Why can your god be infinite or have "popped out of the air" but the elements wich our universe is made of, can't?

[mickydaniels]

Originally Posted by Ranzid

Why can your god be infinite or have "popped out of the air" but the elements wich our universe is made of, can't?

Because we see when they end. The elements which our universe are finite because when can see how they start and know that they have an ending. If something has an ending, it has a beginning, right?

[The Duggler]

Originally Posted by mickydaniels

Because we see when they end. The elements which our universe are finite because when can see how they start and know that they have an ending. If something has an ending, it has a beginning, right?

Right, but I fail to see how anything ends. Let's take the atom for exemple, you can shatter it, but it will only separate into smaller particules, it doesn't end.

No energy is created, nor lost in the universe.

[mickydaniels]

Originally Posted by Ranzid

Why can your god be infinite or have "popped out of the air" but the elements wich our universe is made of, can't?

That's what I was responding to, and I obviously meant something different. I meant life. As in a being that is more powerful and has no beginning and end and is living.

No energy created or lost.
But, if you take the hydrogen atom and add a proton you get helium. Nothing lost, but it is changed. As in, it is not the same thing anymore.

A second thing is, we don't know what God looks like. I can never tell you what he is but I can tell you that he exists in some form. Who knows? He could very well be the universe itself. Who am I to say what he is? And that is most likely why many people don't believe. Because they want some concrete answer.
If you don't believe, you don't believe. Maybe somewhere down the road, you will maybe you won't.


He will only be perceived by those who seek Him with all their heart...

[TheGame]

Originally Posted by mickydaniels

Because they want some concrete answer.

Exactly... everybody finds thier "concrete answer"s in different ways

As for the "No energy is created, nor lost in the universe" arguement... that's still not even a fact. Unless the scientist who made this discovery is god, and has been around as long as God, then you can't trust him. The fact is we haven't been everywhere, and we haven't been around for infintity years, so it's impossible to say that the energy we have now can't be destroyed, and it's impossible to say it can't be created, because it's impossible to prove.

Granted it can be proven in the short-term, but who is gonna sit there by an atom and see if it can handle the test of time... and if it was created someone could go back and see that it was, and prove it. (assuming some sort of time machine is created ) But nobody could prove that it was never created because you would be going so far back in time that... well, infintity steps in here. Infintity can't be proven, and for the most part things with a begining and an end can be.

Like I said in my earlier post, people believe what they chose to believe, and it's impossible to have an open mind here. I could sit here and say the sun will be here forever... and chances are unless it blacks out you will never be able to prove me wrong.

[The Duggler]

Originally Posted by mickydaniels

That's what I was responding to, and I obviously meant something different. I meant life. As in a being that is more powerful and has no beginning and end and is living.

Ok fine, this is where our arguments take seperates ways. Because you consider life as something beyond just elements and I don't. I believe that we are just product of a mix of the existing matter.

Originally Posted by TheGame

Ad for the "No energy is created, nor lost in the universe" arguement... that's still not even a fact. Unless the scientist who made this discovery is god, and has been around as long as God, then you can't trust him. The fact is we haven't been everywhere, and we haven't been around for infintity years, so it's impossible to say that the energy we have now can't be destroyed, and it's impossible to say it can't be created, because it's impossible to prove

Well, I like to base my beliefs in what we know and have discovered to this point. I know, we don't know everything, but that doesn't mean that we have to jump to conclusions to fast. That's why man started to believe in god in the first place, to explain the inexplicable.

[TheGame]

Originally Posted by Ranzid

Well, I like to base my beliefs in what we know and have discovered to this point. I know, we don't know everything, but that doesn't mean that we have to jump to conclusions to fast. That's why man started to believe in god in the first place, to explain the inexplicable.

You base your beliefs off of what "we" have discoverd to this point? *chuckles* Care to give some examples?

As for jumping to conclusions... I think you may be the one jumping to them. How do you know for a fact that "explaining the inexplicable" is the 'reason' man believes in God? Have you ever taken into account that religious figureheads may be real people and *gasp* the book speaks of the truth about them?

None of us lived in that time, thus none of us can prove anything that happend at that time without reading into it... Correct? So when you say "I base my beliefs in what we know and discoverd to this point" who are you talking about when you say 'we'?

The fact is, there is no 'we' there is only you and yorself. You are chosing to believe what you read in a history book, and what you see on TV, but the fact is everything that you haven't lived with or experienced for yourself could be completly bogus.

Like in my last arguement, all the infinitys in life can't be proved... but you labeled it as "proven". There is no proof, that's just like me listing God as proven. Some say the universe goes out forever, but how do we know? Most of us haven't been off the planet, let alone outside of the solar system... how do you know it's not just one big scam? Simple, you don't until you see/do it for yourself.

Back to the point, you are chosing to believe in somthing that may or may not be true, just like any religious person on the planet. You have faith in history and science books, and you believe in infinity, somthing that defanently can't be proven.

So, I ask you again, what do you base your beliefs off of?

*taps foot*

Ok, I'll tell you... you base them off of what you want to believe, not what you know, just like everybody else. You will claim it's what you "know" just like a religious person will claim it's what they "know" but neither have anything to back themselves up except by personal experience. Infinity never has been, nor will ever be a proven concept because nobody can experience infintity.

You live your own life, and you believe what you want to believe... Science is just as bad and even worse than Religion when it comes to faith... and it has no moralities involved.

Some people will never read the bible (or any religious scripture) and accept it as truth, like they would read a history book or somthing of that nature and accept it. If you didn't see it for yourself, just like you didn't see the events in the bible for yourself, that doesn't mean it isn't true. Just because somthing is in the history book it doesn't automatically classify as true, same goes for anything anybody has said or claimed to have done that you haven't done for yourself or seen for yourself.

Maybe you can go to outer space one day and prove the world is round

[Vampyr]

Good Lord. This brings back memories from the "Whats your Religon Thread".

Actually, I think its begun all over again.

[The Duggler]

Originally Posted by TheGame

You base your beliefs off of what "we" have discoverd to this point? *chuckles* Care to give some examples?

As for jumping to conclusions... I think you may be the one jumping to them. How do you know for a fact that "explaining the inexplicable" is the 'reason' man believes in God? Have you ever taken into account that religious figureheads may be real people and *gasp* the book speaks of the truth about them?

None of us lived in that time, thus none of us can prove anything that happend at that time without reading into it... Correct? So when you say "I base my beliefs in what we know and discoverd to this point" who are you talking about when you say 'we'?

The fact is, there is no 'we' there is only you and yorself. You are chosing to believe what you read in a history book, and what you see on TV, but the fact is everything that you haven't lived with or experienced for yourself could be completly bogus.

Like in my last arguement, all the infinitys in life can't be proved... but you labeled it as "proven". There is no proof, that's just like me listing God as proven. Some say the universe goes out forever, but how do we know? Most of us haven't been off the planet, let alone outside of the solar system... how do you know it's not just one big scam? Simple, you don't until you see/do it for yourself.

Back to the point, you are chosing to believe in somthing that may or may not be true, just like any religious person on the planet. You have faith in history and science books, and you believe in infinity, somthing that defanently can't be proven.

So, I ask you again, what do you base your beliefs off of?

*taps foot*

Ok, I'll tell you... you base them off of what you want to believe, not what you know, just like everybody else. You will claim it's what you "know" just like a religious person will claim it's what they "know" but neither have anything to back themselves up except by personal experience. Infinity never has been, nor will ever be a proven concept because nobody can experience infintity.

You live your own life, and you believe what you want to believe... Science is just as bad and even worse than Religion when it comes to faith... and it has no moralities involved.

Some people will never read the bible (or any religious scripture) and accept it as truth, like they would read a history book or somthing of that nature and accept it. If you didn't see it for yourself, just like you didn't see the events in the bible for yourself, that doesn't mean it isn't true. Just because somthing is in the history book it doesn't automatically classify as true, same goes for anything anybody has said or claimed to have done that you haven't done for yourself or seen for yourself.

Maybe you can go to outer space one day and prove the world is round

Ok I understand your point, but what you are saying in that post, is that we are both at the same point. We don't know nothing for sure, and I'm fine with that, but if you present me both choices, both theories (god or science) I choose science.

No we (I'm talking about the human race) haven't discovered everything, we might haven't discovered anything, like you said, but you can't deny the progress we have made. Like understanding how lightning is formed and therefore disprouving an old belief of a god trowing it from the sky.

[nWoCHRISnWo]

*Enters THIS argument again.* I voted no god because I believe it's much more likely that we just haven't figured out what created us all than all the theories out there right now. How old is the bible supposed to be? Pretty damn old, no? Back then they though Earth was flat and was in the center of the universe. I highly doubt they'd be right about god.

[Crono]

I don't believe in God, but I also don't think people should take the bible literally. For many years, the events of that time were passed around by word of mouth. A lot of these stories could've changed drastically throughout time. Like Jesus healing someone just by touching them? I don't believe it, but I'm not denying that a man named Jesus did help people. My belief is that it wasn't instantly, but he helped them in other ways.

The same thing applies with the ten plagues and such. Did you know that these plagues can in fact be caused by nature? If I have time (probably tomorrow night), I'll dig up some links. The same thing can apply to other supernatural events listed in the bible, such as the parting of that sea. There's a volcano in a southern Greek island (which is also one of Earth's most destructive volcano), and after it's errupts, it creates fractures in the earth, which actually allowed the water in the sea to split temporarily.

So my belief is that... don't take old books literally. You don't know how much the stories have changed over 2000 years.

[TheGame]

Originally Posted by Crono

So my belief is that... don't take old books literally. You don't know how much the stories have changed over 2000 years.

I don't know how much anything has changed before my lifetime... same with you. You chose to trust some sources on what happend, and you chose not to trust some others... and you can't physically prove either to be true or not. Like my history Book example, how do you know for a fact that Wasington was our first president? You don't. You are basing it off of what other people say and not experiencing it for yourself. Thus basing it off of what other people believe and have written. Just because every person who you have ever met told you somthing is true, does that automatically make it true?

This goes for history and what we now accept as fact. The fact is you are chosing to deny god andyou are basing it off of things that are no more or less valid than the bible itself... You want to believe that you can't trust a 2000 year old book. There is nothing wrong with the book, it's you who are rejecting it.

[mickydaniels]

Originally Posted by nWoCHRISnWo

Back then they though Earth was flat and was in the center of the universe.

You really think so?

[TheGame]

Nice find