poll

[Rndm_Perfection]

Originally Posted by mickydaniels

This here by John Locke just says it all. Especially the first six points.

Hmmm, I can't quite place my finger on it, but I find those points invalid. Particularly #3.

If a being cannot be created from "nothing", then there must obviously have been a being there to make it? That's so, so basic... and it creates paradoxes. The reasoning there is that humans can't just "be"... because we are humans, and we weren't just kind of here ("proven" at birth). Therefor, there must be something greater which made us. Case closed, right? Ahem... And what created that special something? Why would it be able to create itself while life has the inability to create itself? Why would the greater being create a life that "needs creations"? If it's impossible to understand something, how can you claim it is absolute?

Oh well, not my problem right now. I'm just going to "be".

[Hero2]

I would like to clarify my stance on god ace got my password and voted for me, I wasnt going to vote. hes just pissed because I was making fun of him for his low rep. now i got a lot of bad rep for voting for no god and it wasnt me it was ace that voted that way... SO stop with all the negitive rep im down to 50

[mickydaniels]

I don't see what's so hard to imagine that there is something out there that just isn't perceptible to humans that is more powerful than us. The concept of infinity is known and understood in mathematics, but just can't exist in the case of a God?

[Rndm_Perfection]

Originally Posted by mickydaniels

I don't see what's so hard to imagine that there is something out there that just isn't perceptible to humans that is more powerful than us. The concept of infinity is known and understood in mathematics, but just can't exist in the case of a God?

Bad example, come up with something more reasonable and I may argue. Infinity is a word that defines a proven situation, God is a term used to describe a belief of the creation of life. Infinity = Proven, God = not.

Believe me when I say this though, while I may doubt the existance of God, I do believe it does exist slightly more than I believe it doesn't. The "concept" is EASY to understand. A child could understand that, as well as someone of even less intelligence.

[TheGame]

Originally Posted by Rndm_Perfection

Infinity = Proven, God = not.

Depends on your definition of proof... if you take the bible and read it like it's a history book, then it is proven recorded history, if you don't then you can't prove anything that has happend before your life span and that you haven't seen with your own eyes.

Some people "know" God is real just like people "know" George Washington was the first president... Neither of us can prove either thing w/o looking to other people's accounts. Even then, how many people walking the earth today got to see George Washington with thier own eyes, and had a conversation with him?

In a way there is no proof except in books that others wrote.

What do you accept as proof?

Mathematics is the only thing certain in this world, as is our very existance, anything and everything else we believe you chose to believe. Even more so for things that aren't documented history in our own lives.

It all depends on the person. If you want to approach the bible as some ficticious book when you read it, you won't believe it... not because it isn't true, it's because you don't believe it. Same goes for any other religious book... or any book for that matter.

[mickydaniels]

Originally Posted by TheGame

Depends on your definition of proof... if you take the bible and read it like it's a history book, then it is proven, if you don't then you can't prove anything that has happend before your life span and that you haven't seen with your own eyes.

Some people "know" God is real just like people "know" George Washington was the first president... Neither of us can prove either thing w/o looking to other people's accounts.

That's everything right there.

Originally Posted by Ranzid

Right but I fail to see how anything ends.

What I meant was existing forever. As in, people don't believe in God because he's supposed to have no beginning or end, and he's so powerful.
If you fail to see how anything ends, how do you explain how the people and animals that are dying everyday?

[The Duggler]

Originally Posted by mickydaniels

What I meant was existing forever. As in, people don't believe in God because he's supposed to have no beginning or end, and he's so powerful.

no no no, you said that because the elements in our universe are "finite" that they couldn't have been there forever unlike god. And I replied saying that the elements are as infinite as your god is. So the godless theory is as good as yours in terms of infinity.

Originally Posted by mickydaniels

If you fail to see how anything ends, how do you explain how the people and animals that are dying everyday.

A change of state?

[mickydaniels]

Originally Posted by Rndm_Perfection

If a being cannot be created from "nothing", then there must obviously have been a being there to make it?



And what created that special something?

I don't see what's so different about God and infinity.
No beginning and no end, is attributed to both.
Do you need to know what created him to believe in him? Do you need to know when he was born, and his approximate lifespan?
A perfect example to me is like trying to measure the distance from east to west. It just never ends.

Numbers 3 and 4 seem to make the most sense to me.
Things just can't pop out of the air. They have to come from something. Like the old chicken and egg argument. Which came first? Why does it matter? How did it get there?


Maybe this doesn't make sense to you but it makes perfect sense to me.

[The Duggler]

Originally Posted by mickydaniels

Numbers 3 and 4 seem to make the most sense to me.
Things just can't pop out of the air. They have to come from something. Like the old chicken and egg argument. Which came first? Why does it matter? How did it get there?


Maybe this doesn't make sense to you but it makes perfect sense to me.

Why can your god be infinite or have "popped out of the air" but the elements wich our universe is made of, can't?

[mickydaniels]

Originally Posted by Ranzid

Why can your god be infinite or have "popped out of the air" but the elements wich our universe is made of, can't?

Because we see when they end. The elements which our universe are finite because when can see how they start and know that they have an ending. If something has an ending, it has a beginning, right?

[The Duggler]

Originally Posted by mickydaniels

Because we see when they end. The elements which our universe are finite because when can see how they start and know that they have an ending. If something has an ending, it has a beginning, right?

Right, but I fail to see how anything ends. Let's take the atom for exemple, you can shatter it, but it will only separate into smaller particules, it doesn't end.

No energy is created, nor lost in the universe.

[mickydaniels]

Originally Posted by Ranzid

Why can your god be infinite or have "popped out of the air" but the elements wich our universe is made of, can't?

That's what I was responding to, and I obviously meant something different. I meant life. As in a being that is more powerful and has no beginning and end and is living.

No energy created or lost.
But, if you take the hydrogen atom and add a proton you get helium. Nothing lost, but it is changed. As in, it is not the same thing anymore.

A second thing is, we don't know what God looks like. I can never tell you what he is but I can tell you that he exists in some form. Who knows? He could very well be the universe itself. Who am I to say what he is? And that is most likely why many people don't believe. Because they want some concrete answer.
If you don't believe, you don't believe. Maybe somewhere down the road, you will maybe you won't.


He will only be perceived by those who seek Him with all their heart...

[TheGame]

Originally Posted by mickydaniels

Because they want some concrete answer.

Exactly... everybody finds thier "concrete answer"s in different ways

As for the "No energy is created, nor lost in the universe" arguement... that's still not even a fact. Unless the scientist who made this discovery is god, and has been around as long as God, then you can't trust him. The fact is we haven't been everywhere, and we haven't been around for infintity years, so it's impossible to say that the energy we have now can't be destroyed, and it's impossible to say it can't be created, because it's impossible to prove.

Granted it can be proven in the short-term, but who is gonna sit there by an atom and see if it can handle the test of time... and if it was created someone could go back and see that it was, and prove it. (assuming some sort of time machine is created ) But nobody could prove that it was never created because you would be going so far back in time that... well, infintity steps in here. Infintity can't be proven, and for the most part things with a begining and an end can be.

Like I said in my earlier post, people believe what they chose to believe, and it's impossible to have an open mind here. I could sit here and say the sun will be here forever... and chances are unless it blacks out you will never be able to prove me wrong.

[The Duggler]

Originally Posted by mickydaniels

That's what I was responding to, and I obviously meant something different. I meant life. As in a being that is more powerful and has no beginning and end and is living.

Ok fine, this is where our arguments take seperates ways. Because you consider life as something beyond just elements and I don't. I believe that we are just product of a mix of the existing matter.

Originally Posted by TheGame

Ad for the "No energy is created, nor lost in the universe" arguement... that's still not even a fact. Unless the scientist who made this discovery is god, and has been around as long as God, then you can't trust him. The fact is we haven't been everywhere, and we haven't been around for infintity years, so it's impossible to say that the energy we have now can't be destroyed, and it's impossible to say it can't be created, because it's impossible to prove

Well, I like to base my beliefs in what we know and have discovered to this point. I know, we don't know everything, but that doesn't mean that we have to jump to conclusions to fast. That's why man started to believe in god in the first place, to explain the inexplicable.

[TheGame]

Originally Posted by Ranzid

Well, I like to base my beliefs in what we know and have discovered to this point. I know, we don't know everything, but that doesn't mean that we have to jump to conclusions to fast. That's why man started to believe in god in the first place, to explain the inexplicable.

You base your beliefs off of what "we" have discoverd to this point? *chuckles* Care to give some examples?

As for jumping to conclusions... I think you may be the one jumping to them. How do you know for a fact that "explaining the inexplicable" is the 'reason' man believes in God? Have you ever taken into account that religious figureheads may be real people and *gasp* the book speaks of the truth about them?

None of us lived in that time, thus none of us can prove anything that happend at that time without reading into it... Correct? So when you say "I base my beliefs in what we know and discoverd to this point" who are you talking about when you say 'we'?

The fact is, there is no 'we' there is only you and yorself. You are chosing to believe what you read in a history book, and what you see on TV, but the fact is everything that you haven't lived with or experienced for yourself could be completly bogus.

Like in my last arguement, all the infinitys in life can't be proved... but you labeled it as "proven". There is no proof, that's just like me listing God as proven. Some say the universe goes out forever, but how do we know? Most of us haven't been off the planet, let alone outside of the solar system... how do you know it's not just one big scam? Simple, you don't until you see/do it for yourself.

Back to the point, you are chosing to believe in somthing that may or may not be true, just like any religious person on the planet. You have faith in history and science books, and you believe in infinity, somthing that defanently can't be proven.

So, I ask you again, what do you base your beliefs off of?

*taps foot*

Ok, I'll tell you... you base them off of what you want to believe, not what you know, just like everybody else. You will claim it's what you "know" just like a religious person will claim it's what they "know" but neither have anything to back themselves up except by personal experience. Infinity never has been, nor will ever be a proven concept because nobody can experience infintity.

You live your own life, and you believe what you want to believe... Science is just as bad and even worse than Religion when it comes to faith... and it has no moralities involved.

Some people will never read the bible (or any religious scripture) and accept it as truth, like they would read a history book or somthing of that nature and accept it. If you didn't see it for yourself, just like you didn't see the events in the bible for yourself, that doesn't mean it isn't true. Just because somthing is in the history book it doesn't automatically classify as true, same goes for anything anybody has said or claimed to have done that you haven't done for yourself or seen for yourself.

Maybe you can go to outer space one day and prove the world is round