State of Israel

[Professor S]

Originally Posted by mickydaniels

Anti-Semitism?
No. I'm not going to tell you why the Holocaust was justified because it wasn't. A man with an intense amount of hatred got into a position to do something about it. What I was reffering to was the death of God's Son, Jesus Christ.


Deuteronomy 7:1-6
When Jehovah thy God shall bring thee into the land wither thou goest to possess it, and shall cast out many nations before thee, the Hittite, the Girga****e, the Amorite, the Canaanite, the Perizzite, the Hivite, and the Jebusite, seven nations greater and mightier than thou, and when Jehovah thy God shall deliver them up before thee, and thou shalt smite them; then thou shalt utterly destroy them: thou shalt make no covenant with them, nor show mercy unto them; neither shalt thou make marriages with them, thy daughter thou shalt not giveunto his son , nor his daughter shalt thou take unto thy son. For he will turn thy son away from following me, that they may serve many other gods: so will the anger of Jehovah be kindled against you, and he will destroy thee quickly. But thus shall ye deal with them: ye shall break down their altars, and dash in pieces their pillars, and hew down their Asherim, and burn their graven images with fire. For thou art a holy people unto Jehovah thy God: Jehovah thy God has chosen thee to be a people for his own possession, above all peoples that are on the face of the earth.

Yes, that seems to be very different from what I posted.
The point to be made here, which I guess you want a full explanation for is :


So what if the Qu'ran advocates violence against infidels? If you believe it you will do what God tells you to do. If he wants you to kill infidels, it's obviously in his plan, IF YOU BELIEVE AND WANT TO REMAIN IN GOD'S FAVOR. Now, if these Jews said, we can't do it, these people have lives and families to take care of, children to watch over, what would God say? He told you something now you go and do it. The same way they belived is the same way these Muslims believe. They have to carry it out the way they see it without compassion that God does not see compassion for especially since they see themselves as the living God's true life.

I posted that in response to another post asking what kind of God would advocate violence. I know that Allah did, so evidently does the Christian God. I wasn't making judgements, just stating facts.

And yes, I do consider David Duke a credible source of info. First time I went to his site, I had never heard of him. I only heard of his actions afterwards.

No comment needed.

I'm going to assume that you also think Malcolm X, another of my faves is Anti-Semitic, too?

I don't know about Malcolm X as I never studied him, but I know many of his followers are very much anti-semites. I do know that Malcolm X for much of his political life considered pretty much everyone who wasn't black a devil.

What about Christians? Are they thinly veiled Anti-Semites? After all, each time Christ's death is mentioned it mentions that a certain people were responsible for his death.
John 19: 1-22
Luke chapter 23
Mark chapter 15
Matthew 26: 47 to 27:43

Some Chritians are anti-semites. Some aren't. Its not uncommon, but that also does not make it forgiveable. I certaintly am not one to spout off about how Christians are infallable. They are not, but I can also see that Christianity has been far more of a boon to the world than a detriment. Meanwhile the strict tennants of the Koran and abuses of it by its followers have kept much of the Middle East mired in violence and poverty for many many years.

[mickydaniels]

Originally Posted by The Strangler

I don't know about Malcolm X as I never studied him, but I know many of his followers are very much anti-semites. I do know that Malcolm X for much of his political life considered pretty much everyone who wasn't black a devil.

Here's a statement I believe accurately describes what he was about from 1965:

Whether you're educated or illiterate, whether you live on the boulevard or in the alley, you're going to catch hell just like I am. We're all in the same boat and we all are going to catch the same hell from the same man. He just happens to be a white man. All of us have suffered here, in this country, political oppression at the hands of the white man, and social degradation at the hands of the white man.
Now in speaking like this, it doesn't mean that we're anti-white, but it does mean we're anti-exploitation, we're anti-degradation, we're anti-oppression. And if the white man doesn't want us to be anti-him, let him stop oppressing us and exploiting and degrading us.

[Professor S]

Was that quote from before or after his pilgrimmage to Mecca? I know his views changed greatly after his pilgrimmage.

[mickydaniels]

It's actually from 1964, the same year he went to Mecca. Before or after I don't know. 1965 is the year this was printed. Doesn't really matter because he was still against oppression, he just accepted the fact that maybe blacks couldn't do it all on their own.

[Professor S]

Well thw whole idea of gaining acceptance through isolationist views is pretty silly. I liked his views after his trip to Mecca, but before he was more than a little suspect.

[mickydaniels]

More than a little suspect? Please explain.


And how is gaining accpetance through isolation silly? That's the same thing Israel is doing. They don't want any Palestinians so they're doing what they feel is necessary to keep them out even though the Palestinians were already there.

In any case the state of Israel wouldn't exist today if it wasn't for the Holocaust. It was obvious they were not going to stay in Europe and the US simply didn't want to deal with mass Jewish immigration. They set up Israel and made everyone happy.

[Rick_Blaze]

Israel kills Palestinians and it means nothing. Palestinians retaliate and they're so evil. They don't want suicide bombs just give the Palestinians the state they deserve, and dismantle every single settlement in the west bank. If black people in this country waited for white terrorists in the south to stop violence, then they're might still have been segregation in this country. There are about 3.8 million Palestinian refugees. 3.8 that have been kicked out of their country and still can't return.

[Professor S]

Originally Posted by mickydaniels

More than a little suspect? Please explain.

Your the fan of Malcolm X, you should know. Before he went on his trip to Mecca his views were far more extreme and violent, and many would even say racist. That I consider suspect.

And how is gaining accpetance through isolation silly? That's the same thing Israel is doing. They don't want any Palestinians so they're doing what they feel is necessary to keep them out even though the Palestinians were already there.

It comes down to safety. The Palestinians that they have allowed to live in their country are at best hostile and at worst actively participating in terrorism. We in America become outraged when ONE TERRORIST ACT is perpetrated on us. Imagine being Israeli and living with it on a daily basis.

And why is there even a comparison? Israel attacks specific targets while Palestinian terrorists blow up cars in busy streets filled with innocents. There is no comparison.

In any case the state of Israel wouldn't exist today if it wasn't for the Holocaust. It was obvious they were not going to stay in Europe and the US simply didn't want to deal with mass Jewish immigration. They set up Israel and made everyone happy.

Many of the Jews who were in Israel at the time of Patriation were already there. Patriation began back during WWI and there were large Jewish populations before then. Many more came after the war, its true, but basically the UN drew lines that already existed. Its not like the UN just said "ok, everybody out, you Jews step right in."

[Shadow_Link]

Originally Posted by The Strangler

I posted that in response to another post asking what kind of God would advocate violence. I know that Allah did

Sorry? Could you please read a bit more about Islam before making naive comments like this one... Either do that or don't comment about anything on Islam at all.

Advocating violence? I think not.

[Professor S]

Originally Posted by Shadow_Link

Sorry? Could you please read a bit more about Islam before making naive comments like this one... Either do that or don't comment about anything on Islam at all.

Advocating violence? I think not.

Sigh...great, now I have to go look up the excerpts that I looked up a long time ago and posted here. I think you were even in on that discussion. Hold on. I'll be right back...

[Shadow_Link]

Originally Posted by The Strangler

Sigh...great, now I have to go look up the excerpts that I looked up a long time ago and posted here. I think you were even in on that discussion. Hold on. I'll be right back...

Yeah, I remember, and I quite clearly remember telling you to actually read the quotes from the Qur'an in context. Muslim scholars suggest that those who read the Qur'an should keep at a minimum the following principles in mind. First you should have an awareness of the inner coherence in the Qur'an. As the verses are connected to each other, you should study at the least the preceding and following verses for a sense of the immediate context. Also the reader should look at all of the verses that deal with the same subject in the book. These are frequently scattered all over the scripture.

You would then realise that the sort of 'violence' that it permits is only in siutations of self-defence and war (a delicate subject).

[Professor S]

Originally Posted by Shadow_Link

Yeah, I remember, and I quite clearly remember telling you to actually read the quotes from the Qur'an in context. Muslim scholars suggest that those who read the Qur'an should keep at a minimum the following principles in mind. First you should have an awareness of the inner coherence in the Qur'an. As the verses are connected to each other, you should study at the least the preceding and following verses for a sense of the immediate context. Also the reader should look at all of the verses that deal with the same subject in the book. These are frequently scattered all over the scripture.

You would then realise that the sort of 'violence' that it permits is only in siutations of self-defence and war (a delicate subject).

And I also remember pointing out that having different morals for "war" and "peace" are highly subjective, contradictory and have been ABUSED to an incredible extent.

See, the Qu'ran teaches that it is meant to be taken in only one way. The true way. The problem is that everyones way is the "true" way to them. To Bin Laden, those like you are not good Muslim's or whatever sect you are. And I'm sure Bin Laden thinks you do not follow true Islam. As long as this persists there will continue to be massive amounts of violence.

[Professor S]

"You may strike terror into the enemies of God and the faithful, and others besides them. I shall cast terror into the hearts of infidels. Strike off their heads, maim them in every limb. Make war on them until idolatry is no more and God's religion reigns supreme. When the sacred months are over slay the idolaters wherever you find them. Arrest them, besiege them, and lie in ambush everywhere for them. Those that make war against God and His apostle and spread disorders in the land shall be put to death or crucified or have their hands and feet cut off on alternate sides, or be banished from the country."

"Be ruthless to unbelievers but merciful to one another."

"Blessed are the believers who restrain their carnal desires except with their wives and slave girls, for these are lawful to them."

This nice little passage both endorses slavery and the rape of those that are enslaved. I can see where Hussein felt justified in building his rape camps.

The Roman numerals are the SURAs of the Koran, similar to the books of the Bible.

IV.89: They desire that you should disbelieve as they have disbelieved, so that you might be (all) alike; therefore take not from among them friends until they fly (their homes) in Allah's way; but if they turn back, then seize them and kill them wherever you find them, and take not from among them a friend or a helper.

IX. 5-6: Kill those who join other gods with God wherever you may find them.

IV.76: Those who believe fight in the cause of God.

IV.74: Let those who fight in the cause of God who barter the life of this world for that which is to come; for whoever fights on God's path, whether he is killed or triumphs, We will give him a handsome reward.

VIII.39-42: Say to the Infidels: if they desist from their unbelief, what is now past shall be forgiven; but if they return to it, they have already before them the doom of the ancients! Fight then against them till strife be at an end, and the religion be all of it God's.

Is this enough for you? Listen, I'm not here saying that Christianity is real or thet Islam is fake, I'm here to point something out. This is: DON'T FOLLOW RELIGIOUS TEXTS WORD FOR WORD. THEY ARE THOUSANDS OF YEARS OLD AND THEIR LITERAL TRANSLATIONS DO MORE HARM THAN GOOD IN MODERN SOCIETY.

There are many teachings in the Qu'ran (did I get it right that time?) that are loving and peaceful, just like the Bible, but unfotunately threre are many passages like these also. To take them literally is a mistake.

Christianity is a case in point. Christianity started as a very warm religion that used the bible as a book of stories to live by. The most modern form of this is Russian Orthodoxy. Its when those who sought power used religion as a means to attain it when all of this oppression and violence started. But at the same time you can't just add stuff. When Dogma becomes more meaningful than the Word, there is a problem. Case in point: The Pope. No offense Catholics, but he is your creation and was used as a monarch figure to combat the loyalty of the masses to their feudal lords.

Unfortunately it seems that the Qu'ran teaches a direct translation as its norm. This is a shame. Because if one believes that their interpretation is the true and only interpretation, they can pretty much justify any heinous act they wish with the quotes I listed above.

Outr of every quote I've seen, this is the most disturbing:

"There may be moderate Muslims, but Islam itself is not moderate. There is no difference between Islam and Islamic fundamentalism. At most there is a difference of degree but not of kind."

-- Ibn Warraq, executive director of the Institute for the Secularization of Islamic Society

[Bond]

Originally Posted by Shadow_Link

Sorry? Could you please read a bit more about Islam before making naive comments like this one... Either do that or don't comment about anything on Islam at all.

Advocating violence? I think not.

Thetruereligion.org? Give me a break...

Anything can be interpreted as being violent. Just as anything can be skewed to support your own viewpoint. Examples:

KKK (Christianity)

al Qaeda (Islam)

By the way, are you ever going to answer my questions on Islam Shadow Link?

[Shadow_Link]

Originally Posted by Bond

Thetruereligion.org? Give me a break...

Ugh... Give ME a break, you're not gonna read the link JUST because of the name of the site? It's difficult to convey a point with such people. It just explains how people skew the truth in the Qur'an. Or justr ead my previous post. These quotes people come up with are usually seperated from the rest of the surah (chapter)/other verses before and after. I'm not going to explain it again.

As for your qustion...

Women's Liberation In Islam

Today people think that women are liberated in the West and that thewomen's liberation movement began in the 20th century. Actually, thewomen's liberation movement was not begun by women but was revealed by Godto a man in the seventh century by the name of Muhammad (peace be uponhim), who is known as the last Prophet of Islam. The Qur'an and theTraditions of the Prophet (Hadith or Sunnah) are the sources from whichevery Muslim woman derives her rights and duties.

I. HUMAN RIGHTS

Islam, fourteen centuries ago, made women equally accountable to God inglorifying and worshipping Him - setting no limits on her moral progress. Also, Islam established a woman's equality in her humanity with men.

In the Qur'an, in the first verse of the chapter entitled "Women," Godsays, "O mankind! Be careful of your duty to your Lord Who created youfrom a single soul and from it its mate and from them both have spreadabroad a multitude of men and women. Be careful of your duty toward Allahin Whom you claim (your rights) of one another, and towards the wombs (that bore you). Lo! Allah has been a Watcher over you." (4:1)

Since men and women both came from the same essence, they are equal in their humanity. Women cannot be by nature evil (as some religious believe) or then men would be evil also. Similarly, neither gender can be superior because it would be a contradiction of equality.

II. CIVIL RIGHTS

In Islam, a woman has the basic freedom of choice and expression based on recognition of her individual personality. First, she is free to choose her religion. The Qur'an states: "There is no compulsion in religion. Right has been made distinct from error." (2:256)

Women are encouraged in Islam to contribute their opinions and ideas. There are many traditions of the Prophet (pbuh) which indicate women would pose questions directly to him and offer their opinions concerning religion, economics and social matters.

A Muslim woman chooses her husband and keeps her name after marriage. A Muslim woman's testimony is valid in legal disputes. In fact, in areas in which women are more familiar, their evidence is conclusive.

III. SOCIAL RIGHTS

The Prophet (pbuh) said: "Seeking knowledge is a mandate for every Muslim (male and female)." This includes knowledge of the Qur'an and the Hadith as well as other knowledge. Men and women both have the capacity for learning and understanding. Since it is also their obligation to promote good behavior and condemn bad behavior in all spheres of life, Muslim women must acquire the appropriate education to perform this duty in accordance with their own natural talents and interests.

While maintenance of a home, providing support to her husband, and bearing, raising and teaching of children are among the first and very highly regarded roles for a woman, if she has the skills to work outside the home for the good of the community, she may do so as long as her family obligations are met.

Islam recognizes and fosters the natural differences between men and women despite their equality. Some types of work are more suitable for men and other types for women. This in no way diminishes either's effort nor its benefit. God will reward both sexes equally for the value of their work, though it may not necessarily be the same activity.

Concerning motherhood, the Prophet (pbuh) said: "Heaven lies under the feet of mothers." This implies that the success of a society can be traced to the mothers that raised it. The first and greatest influence on a person comes from the sense of security, affection, and training received from the mother. Therefore, a woman having children must be educated and conscientious in order to be a skillful parent.

IV. POLITICAL RIGHTS

A right given to Muslim women by God 1400 years ago is the right to vote. On any public matter, a woman may voice her opinion and participate in politics. One example, narrated in the Qur'an (60:12), is that Muhammad (pbuh) is told that when the believing women come to him and swear their allegiance to Islam, he must accept their oath. This established the right of women to select their leader and publicly declare so. Finally, Islam does not forbid a woman from holding important positions in government. Abdur-Rahman Ibn Auf consulted many women before he recommended Uthman Ibn Affan to be the Caliph.

V. ECONOMIC RIGHTS

The Qur'an states: "By the creation of the male and female; Verily, (the ends) ye strive for are diverse." (92:3-4)

In these verses, God declares that He created men and women to be different, with unique roles, functions and skills. As in society, where there is a division of labor, so too in a family; each member has different responsibilities. Generally, Islam upholds that women are entrusted with the nurturing role, and men, with the guardian role. Therefore, women are given the right of financial support.

The Qur'an states: "Men are the maintainers of women because Allah has made some of them to excel others and because they spend of their wealth (for the support of women)." (4:34)

This guardianship and greater financial responsibility is given to men, requires that they provide women with not only monetary support but also physical protection and kind and respectful treatment.

The Muslim woman has the privilege to earn money, the right to own property, to enter into legal contracts and to manage all of her assets in any way she pleases. She can run her own business and no one has any claim on her earnings including her husband. The Qur'an states:

"And in no wise covet those things in which Allah hath bestowed His gifts more freely on some of you than on others; to men is allotted what they earn, and to women, what they earn; but ask Allah of His bounty, for Allah hath full knowledge of all things." (4:32)

A woman inherits from her relatives. The Qur'an states: "For men there is a share in what parents and relatives leave, and for women there is a share of what parents and relatives leave, whether it be little or much - an ordained share." (4:7)

VI. RIGHTS OF A WIFE

The Qur'an states: "And among His signs is that He created for you mates from among yourselves that you may live in tranquillity with them, and He has put love and mercy between you; Verily, in that are signs for people who reflect." (30:21)

Marriage is therefore not just a physical or emotional necessity, but in fact, a sign from God! It is a relationship of mutual rights and obligations based on divine guidance. God created men and women with complimentary natures, and in the Qur'an, He laid out a system of laws to support harmonious interaction between the sexes.

"...They are your garments and you are their garments." (2:187)

Clothing provides physical protection and covers the beauty and faults of the body. Likewise, a spouse is viewed this way. Each protects the other and hides the faults and compliments the characteristics of the spouse.

To foster the love and security that comes with marriage, Muslim wives have various rights. The first of the wife's rights is to receive mahr, a gift from the husband which is part of the marriage contract and required for the legality of the marriage.

The second right of a wife is maintenance. Despite any wealth she may have, her husband is obligated to provide her with food, shelter and clothing. He is not forced, however, to spend beyond his capability and his wife is not entitled to make unreasonable demands. The Qur'an states: "Let the man of means spend according to his means, and the man whose resources are restricted, let him spend according to what Allah has given him. Allah puts no burden on any person beyond what He has given him." (65:7)


God tells us men are guardians over women and are afforded the leadership in the family. His responsibility for obeying God extends to guiding his family to obey God at all times.

A wife's rights also extend beyond material needs. She has the right to kind treatment. The Prophet (pbuh) said: "The most perfect believers are the best in conduct. And the best of you are those who are best to their wives." God tells us He created mates and put love, mercy, and tranquillity between them.

Both men and women have a need for companionship and sexual needs, and marriage is designed to fulfill those needs. For one spouse to deny this satisfaction to the other, temptation exists to seek it elsewhere.

VIII. CONCLUSION

The Muslim woman was given a role, duties and rights 1400 years ago that most women do not enjoy today, even in the West. These are from God and are designed to keep balance in society; what may seem unjust or missing in one place is compensated for or explained in another place. Islam is a complete way of life.