Politically Incorrect: Gay Marriage

[GameMaster]

Live and let live.

[Professor S]

Originally Posted by TheGame

If I were gay I wouldn't...

Thats very easy to say when your looking from the outside in. Try walking a mile in another man's shoes before condemning them.

[Joeiss]

Originally Posted by The Strangler

Thats very easy to say when your looking from the outside in. Try walking a mile in another man's shoes before condemning them.

Right on.

[One Winged Angel]

[quote=The Strangler]And you are basing this on what? Also, the "flaming homos" comment is pulling a LOT of steam out of your argument. I have a friend who is gay, and he didn't start out as a "flaming homo", but he eventually became one through hanging out with gay people after he caame out of the closet. I think this is a result of feeling repressed for 20 some odd years and feeling like something was wrong with him, rather than he just wants to be gay. Considering the amount of prejudice that homosexuals face in America, I don't think anyone would pick that if they had a choice.[quote]

I'm aware of that, but I'm not pointing fingers at your friend. Personally I do know guys who wanted to gay... sorry, that was a little personal on my part.

Um, NO. Homosexuals were around a LONG time before Jesus. There are many accounts of gay bath houses in Rome and many other cultures before the birth of Christ. Christ hung out with 12 guys... what does that tell you? (Ok, that was a REALLY bad joke)

I didnt say gays weren't around before or during christ. Now, where was Jesus located during christ... Jerusalem! Even though Jerusalem was apart of the Roman Empire, it wasn't Rome now was it?

Also that was a very disrespectful joke you made.

Thats your religious opinion, not necessarily true. Plus there are even holes in your argument. The Bible has been translated and retranslated numerous times. These were all done by man. If man if inherently fallable, whats to say there weren't mistakes. Maybe God loves Homos and we straight guys are going to burn in hell.

Even though the bible has been retranslated at times, the main point is still put out. I had a looong talk with Bond about this. Also another thing, considering that you don't know anything about the bible, you're not liable to say something like

Maybe God loves Homos and we straight guys are going to burn in hell.

As a matter of fact god loves every human being. So, why don't you just shove a foot up your @$$. :P

Science can't PROVE that gay men are born straight. Can you PROVE that being gay is just a choice or that God didn't make them that way? I even challenge to to find the part of the Bible that states that God didn't make people gay. Also, if Jesus (who is an extension of God) wanted to treat everyone evenly to follow the word of God, then why are some peope gay, and most aren't? It doesn't sound like they are being treated evenly to me.

I can't say that god didn't make them gay, but I can say that he doesn't want them to be gay.

Even though Jesus wanted people to be treated evenly, people don't. That's the kind of society we live in, not everyone listens to his word. Also, there are non-believers who are still treating them unfairly as well, that doesn't pertain to only christians.

think each church should be allowed to make their own decision on that, except the Catholic church because their own stance in hippocritical considering the actively harbor perverted homosexual priests. At least most gay people aren't predators, unlike those that the Catholic Church protects.

You're speaking for only a very few number of priests. Those are the disgusting sinners that should not have such a role in any church.

Why the government has not gotten involved in whole pedophile priest ordeal, I have no idea. Last time I heard an adult sexually forcing themselves on a minor was against the law.

I am not sure of that either, most likely because the Catholic church is not only in America. Even though most of the cases were, I guess there is a logical explanation of that.

[Xantar]

Ok, so now it looks like we've got two questions being asked here.

1. Are you, personally and individually, biased against homosexuals?

2. Should the government deny marriage rights to homosexuals?

Justin seems to be answering only the first question (I haven't seen him say anything about government policy). So he doesn't like gay marriage, and if he were some person able to marry two people together like a priest or mayor of a town or something, he wouldn't do it for homosexuals. All right then. It's a stance I don't agree with, but that's nothing new. And besides that, it's not what I would call a stupid argument because it's a simple personal belief.

And to Justin's credit, he hasn't tried to equate homosexuality to pedophilia as some other fundamentalists do. That would have been a really stupid argument, and I'm not sorry for saying so in my previous post.

Now, as has been pointed out numerous times before, it's one thing to say you have a particular opinion and another to say that the government should act on that opinion. I've yet to see a convincing argument that gay marriage should not be allowed by the government. You can say that you personally don't accept it. But what reason can you give for the government not to do so?

[Professor S]

Originally Posted by One Winged Angel

I didnt say gays weren't around before or during christ. Now, where was Jesus located during christ... Jerusalem! Even though Jerusalem was apart of the Roman Empire, it wasn't Rome now was it?

Also that was a very disrespectful joke you made.

So there weren't any gay people in Jerusalem? How do you know this? Where in the Bible does it say there weren't any gay people in Jerusalem? I guess they were all centralized in Rome then... that makes sense.

Even though the bible has been retranslated at times, the main point is still put out. I had a looong talk with Bond about this. Also another thing, considering that you don't know anything about the bible, you're not liable to say something like As a matter of fact god loves every human being. So, why don't you just shove a foot up your @$$. :P

How do you know I don't know anything about the Bible? I was raised Methodist and went to Bible school for 4 years and I am in fact a semi-historian of many religions. Just because I look at the Bible as a religious text, one of many, and not a word for word book of law, that doesn't mean I know nothing about it. As for God loving every human being, I believe that but Bible hard-liners who try and turn parables into stark contrasts of black and white use the Bible as a tool of hate, and not love. Christianisty was never meant to be this way, and later on I will point out how.

BTW, excellent way of avoiding MY point. If man relays the POINT, then how can we be sure that the point in not fallable?

Even though Jesus wanted people to be treated evenly, people don't. That's the kind of society we live in, not everyone listens to his word. Also, there are non-believers who are still treating them unfairly as well, that doesn't pertain to only christians.

So Jesus/God treats all people evenly? Then why are people created as homosexuals if by the very act of being that they are to either be tortured by feelings they can NEVER act on, or act on them and burn in hell? Meanwhile, we heterosexuals only have to wait for marriage. People have nothing to do with this argument.[/quote]

You're speaking for only a very few number of priests. Those are the disgusting sinners that should not have such a role in any church.

I agree that they should have no role. But what you view as "few" is relative. I think a few thousand is a LOT. Enough that the Church feels it needs to protect them as they are running low on those who are willing to become priests.

I guess I should state my true purpose in this argument. Religion has been hijacked by those who feel that the Bible is a book of law, and not a book of spirituality. Christianity was never meant to be this way, and the fact that it is is more a result of it being influenced by PAGAN religions that have been incorporated over the years. Before anyone flips out, but think of all the ritual involved in the Catholic church. Ritual is a direct influence from pagan religions.

From the time when Christianity first begain to spread thousands of years ago, Christianity was a Religion based on a book of Parables that were meant to be applied to the way of life of the day. Orthodox religions are the closest to this in today's society. The closest being the Russian Orthodox Church. They realize that the stories told in the Bible are not meant to be taken literally. The word of God is intended basically to allow poeple to live to the best of thir ability given their circumstances, not to divide people into sinners and saints. Russian Orthodoxy do not even believe in Hell as we do. They believe that Hell is simply the absence of God. Hell is simply rotting in the ground and the dissipation of the soul. They belive Hell is the lack of being.

Modern Christian religions are more exclusive than inclusive and depend on fear to influence people more than love. I believe in God, and I believe in Him because in my heart I love Him. THAT is faith. Believing in God because a book told you to or because its better than the alternative that is Hell, is not. Its hedging your bets.

You claim that I know nothing about the Bible. I claim that what good is that knowledge, if all you know is the iterpretation of the Bible that has been fed to you since birth? How can you make a judgement when you walk through life with blinders on?

Modern religion is a victim from its own dogma that comes mainly not from the way Christianity begain, but from the outside influences it incorporated over the years to win converts. In fact, whole sections of the Bible have been removed. Ever hear of the Book of Enoch? It was originally in the Old Testament, only to be removed by the Catholic Church as heresy. How can the WORD OF GOD be heresy? Easy, it did not fit with the Catholic Church's own dogma. This is not how it was intended to be.

How do I know this? I have had many long conversations with my friend Edward. He is currently working on his discertation to gain his Doctorate of Philosophy and Religion from the Universtity of Pennsylvania.

[Bond]

The question that arises from your points Strangler, at least for me, is that do you take Jesus literally?

By the way, has anyone noticed the more you learn about religion in general the less plausible it seems?

[GiMpY-wAnNaBe]

Originally Posted by The Strangler

So there weren't any gay people in Jerusalem? How do you know this? Where in the Bible does it say there weren't any gay people in Jerusalem? I guess they were all centralized in Rome then... that makes sense.



How do you know I don't know anything about the Bible? I was raised Methodist and went to Bible school for 4 years and I am in fact a semi-historian of many religions. Just because I look at the Bible as a religious text, one of many, and not a word for word book of law, that doesn't mean I know nothing about it. As for God loving every human being, I believe that but Bible hard-liners who try and turn parables into stark contrasts of black and white use the Bible as a tool of hate, and not love. Christianisty was never meant to be this way, and later on I will point out how.

BTW, excellent way of avoiding MY point. If man relays the POINT, then how can we be sure that the point in not fallable?



So Jesus/God treats all people evenly? Then why are people created as homosexuals if by the very act of being that they are to either be tortured by feelings they can NEVER act on, or act on them and burn in hell? Meanwhile, we heterosexuals only have to wait for marriage. People have nothing to do with this argument



I agree that they should have no role. But what you view as "few" is relative. I think a few thousand is a LOT. Enough that the Church feels it needs to protect them as they are running low on those who are willing to become priests.

I guess I should state my true purpose in this argument. Religion has been hijacked by those who feel that the Bible is a book of law, and not a book of spirituality. Christianity was never meant to be this way, and the fact that it is is more a result of it being influenced by PAGAN religions that have been incorporated over the years. Before anyone flips out, but think of all the ritual involved in the Catholic church. Ritual is a direct influence from pagan religions.

From the time when Christianity first begain to spread thousands of years ago, Christianity was a Religion based on a book of Parables that were meant to be applied to the way of life of the day. Orthodox religions are the closest to this in today's society. The closest being the Russian Orthodox Church. They realize that the stories told in the Bible are not meant to be taken literally. The word of God is intended basically to allow poeple to live to the best of thir ability given their circumstances, not to divide people into sinners and saints. Russian Orthodoxy do not even believe in Hell as we do. They believe that Hell is simply the absence of God. Hell is simply rotting in the ground and the dissipation of the soul. They belive Hell is the lack of being.

Modern Christian religions are more exclusive than inclusive and depend on fear to influence people more than love. I believe in God, and I believe in Him because in my heart I love Him. THAT is faith. Believing in God because a book told you to or because its better than the alternative that is Hell, is not. Its hedging your bets.

You claim that I know nothing about the Bible. I claim that what good is that knowledge, if all you know is the iterpretation of the Bible that has been fed to you since birth? How can you make a judgement when you walk through life with blinders on?

Modern religion is a victim from its own dogma that comes mainly not from the way Christianity begain, but from the outside influences it incorporated over the years to win converts. In fact, whole sections of the Bible have been removed. Ever hear of the Book of Enoch? It was originally in the Old Testament, only to be removed by the Catholic Church as heresy. How can the WORD OF GOD be heresy? Easy, it did not fit with the Catholic Church's own dogma. This is not how it was intended to be.

How do I know this? I have had many long conversations with my friend Edward. He is currently working on his discertation to gain his Doctorate of Philosophy and Religion from the Universtity of Pennsylvania.

uhh....what he said

[TheGame]

Originally Posted by The Strangler

Thats very easy to say when your looking from the outside in. Try walking a mile in another man's shoes before condemning them.

It's easier said than done, I'll admit to that... but I mentally put myself in thier shoes, and that's as much as I could do.

[Professor S]

Originally Posted by Bond

The question that arises from your points Strangler, at least for me, is that do you take Jesus literally?

By the way, has anyone noticed the more you learn about religion in general the less plausible it seems?

Well there are several views of Christ.

1) He is the literal son of God.

2) He is the embodiment of God on earth. So in essence, he IS God.

3) He was one of many men claiming to be prophets, just that more people took him seriously and he was never really a religious figure, but more of a misguided individual

Personally, I do not know whether Jesus was the savior. I have doubt, and without doubt I cannot proclaim faith in His existence. I have no doubts in the existence of God. To me he is fact. But I also realize that this is only fact to ME. I do not pretend to to be able thrust my beliefs as fact on others. To OWA his beliefs are truth, and I don't pretend to think that any logic can sway him of that because faith defies logic. In that case much of my argument is futile, but I also believe that sharing of information can only serve to enlighten when it comes to religion, as long as it remains civil which I think it has (OK, I was a little prickish, but thats just me )

In any case, the story of Jesus is very important to us all. His teachings are as relevant today as they were in his day. Just because I do not becessarily believe in Him, does not mean I do not believe in His teachings or that the archetype of the Christ figure is one that should be ignored. That also does not mean that I follow bllindly through life by those teachings. It is the standard by which the morals of a civilized society are based (but are also shared in many non-Christian beliefs). But these are familial morals, not to be enforced by any government. That is not the government's job. (HOLY CRAP, I'M BACK ON TOPIC!!!)

[kevin]

Originally Posted by The Strangler

But these are familial morals, not to be enforced by any government. That is not the government's job.

That's one statement there that I agree with. I won't say that I agree with all of it, but I agree with that one.

First off, a bit of an introduction to myself : I live in Canada. I lean a bit left on political issues.

That should bring up a few Canadian stereotypes, eh?

But in my opinion, laws stating that marriage is "a union of a man and a woman" are unfair, and in my personal opinion, against the Canadian Charter of Rights and Freedoms which states that no one shall be discriminated on for any reason.

The way that I would change it would be to simply change the statement to "a union between two persons."
Then I would simply say that Churches, family values organisations, and other groups weighing in on this subject are free to choose whether or not to marry a proposed couple.

This may be rehashing what has been said in previous posts, but this is what I would do. It's what I believe the Government of Canada is currently considering; and when they implement this it will be one of the few things they've done that I would support.

As to the previous marijuana issue: I don't know whether or not I support decriminilization, much less legalisation. But imagine if we taxed it like beer and tobacco.

[Dylflon]

Lets everybody stop arguing about whether it's right or not to be gay.

Let's just agree that gay people are no different from you and I and should have equal rights.

Anyways: to releive tension I have decided to post this picture. I don't think anyone can be mad when this picture is around.

[GameMaster]

[Mechadragon]

Originally Posted by Dylflon

Lets everybody stop arguing about whether it's right or not to be gay.

Let's just agree that gay people are no different from you and I and should have equal rights.

Anyways: to releive tension I have decided to post this picture. I don't think anyone can be mad when this picture is around.

This forum was intended for argument/debate.

[Professor S]

Originally Posted by GameMaster

]]I'm sorry GameMaster, I forgot that you prefer to use the internet to avoid thought. If you're so against political and social discussion in these forums, THEN WHY ARE YOU POSTING IN THE SPIN ZONE? Seems pretty stupid to me...