Donkey Kong Country Returns

[Angrist]

I'm really with Vampy here... If people are asking for Cubetroller compatibility, it shows Nintendo might be wrong about their recent views. And shouldn't they be about making as much money as possible? How is disabling Cubetroller support helping with that?

[Vampyr]

Originally Posted by Angrist

I'm really with Vampy here... If people are asking for Cubetroller compatibility, it shows Nintendo might be wrong about their recent views. And shouldn't they be about making as much money as possible? How is disabling Cubetroller support helping with that?

Exactly - I'm not going to buy their game because of this. If I get it as a Christmas gift, fine I'll play it, but I'm not going to go out and buy it. I can't play a timing based game when I can't properly time my actions because of the buffer and unpredictability of motion controls.

It isn't that I'm refusing to move forward with them - I think that motion controls have their place. I like using the wheel on Mario Kart if I'm in the mood for something different or if I'm playing with friends. I'm also going to buy Mario Party soon, and that seems like a game where motion controls would be really fun. Wii Sports would be very un-fun without motion controls.

New Super Mario Bros Wii - the motion controls were used for -one- action. That was fine, it didn't bother me. I probably would have preferred a button combination, but I could deal with that.

Also, classic controller support would be totally okay with me. I own a classic controller, it feels good. The point is I want an alternative to the motion controls - I was saying GCN controller because that's what Moogle initially mentioned.

I would probably end up playing with the motion controls occasionally, just for variety, but it's not my ideal way to play a game like that.

Also it was more than two games, I can think of at least one other: Fire Emblem: Radiant Dawn. So there are probably others as well.

I think the problem here is that some people feel like they have an obligation to help make a game better by trying to enjoy these controls ("moving forward with them"). You don't. You're paying Nintendo for this product, it's their job to make it as enjoyable as possible.

[BreakABone]

Originally Posted by Vampyr

Exactly - I'm not going to buy their game because of this. If I get it as a Christmas gift, fine I'll play it, but I'm not going to go out and buy it. I can't play a timing based game when I can't properly time my actions because of the buffer and unpredictability of motion controls.

It isn't that I'm refusing to move forward with them - I think that motion controls have their place. I like using the wheel on Mario Kart if I'm in the mood for something different or if I'm playing with friends. I'm also going to buy Mario Party soon, and that seems like a game where motion controls would be really fun. Wii Sports would be very un-fun without motion controls.

New Super Mario Bros Wii - the motion controls were used for -one- action. That was fine, it didn't bother me. I probably would have preferred a button combination, but I could deal with that.

Also, classic controller support would be totally okay with me. I own a classic controller, it feels good. The point is I want an alternative to the motion controls - I was saying GCN controller because that's what Moogle initially mentioned.

I would probably end up playing with the motion controls occasionally, just for variety, but it's not my ideal way to play a game like that.

Also it was more than two games, I can think of at least one other: Fire Emblem: Radiant Dawn. So there are probably others as well.

I think the problem here is that some people feel like they have an obligation to help make a game better by trying to enjoy these controls ("moving forward with them"). You don't. You're paying Nintendo for this product, it's their job to make it as enjoyable as possible.

Just so we're clear you haven't played the game yet so you are only complaining based on hearsay?

Anyhow, as I mentioned before I actually do have issues with the motion controls in this game, but that isn't what you are arguing at all.

You are saying that they should offer a whole new control scheme for the game when the simplest solution would have been to include a Wii-mote/chuck combination that doesn't include motion. That I would have accepted, but to say that Nintendo should continue to cater to people who can't change their habits is just a terrible business practice.

Okay here is a list of Nintendo published games that use the Cube controller:
Fire Emblem
Mario Kart Wii
Samurai Warriors 3
Super Smash Bros Brawl
Super Mario Bros Anniversary
Zangeki no Reginleiv

There you go, 6 games in 4 years, 4 of which were released at least 2 years ago, 1 of which is just a port of NES games and one that probably will never see the light of day beyond Japan.

Compare that to the other two dozen or so games they released without Cube controller support, kind of shows you they weren't messing around with the idea.

As for the rest of the statement, I'm just not gonna bother with that so meh.

[Vampyr]

Originally Posted by BreakABone

Just so we're clear you haven't played the game yet so you are only complaining based on hearsay?

No, I haven't, and now I probably never will. I'm basing my assessment on my previous experience with motion controls and platforming, as well as feedback from others (including you).

Anyhow, as I mentioned before I actually do have issues with the motion controls in this game, but that isn't what you are arguing at all.

You are saying that they should offer a whole new control scheme for the game when the simplest solution would have been to include a Wii-mote/chuck combination that doesn't include motion. That I would have accepted, but to say that Nintendo should continue to cater to people who can't change their habits is just a terrible business practice.

Yes, that is what I'm arguing. How is having a controller scheme with the nunchuck any more simple than a controller scheme with the classic controller? Both are addons that you plug into the bottom of a wii mote, except one has a d-pad that you could have used, which solves your initial problem of not enjoying the analog stick.

And since when is it terrible business practice to do things to get more people to buy your game?

Controller options are extremely important. How many games out there let you customize some or all of your button configuration? Almost all of them. Fighting games provide extremely fine grain customization, while others give you a few different layouts to choose from. I don't see how or why this is any different - I have come to expect video game makers to give me options when it comes to controls. The first thing I do on any game is invert the y-axis. I have a couple of friends who play with the "bumper jumper" layout on Halo.

A good business strategy is to be competitive. Other developers let you choose your controls, Nintendo should too. It isn't my fault that those controller options happen to span 3 or 4 devices; but even so it isn't any more expensive for Nintendo to support those devices.

[Typhoid]

How many games out there let you customize some or all of your button configuration? Almost all of them. Fighting games provide extremely fine grain customization, while others give you a few different layouts to choose from. I don't see how or why this is any different - I have come to expect video game makers to give me options when it comes to controls. The first thing I do on any game is invert the y-axis. I have a couple of friends who play with the "bumper jumper" layout on Halo.

Yes - but how many consoles let you use different controllers?

The Wii is for motion controls. That's why it was made - and that was the basis of the concept for the games. Like Babs' said, it has GC ports because it's backwards compatible - not because they want to negate motion controls and let you play Madworld on a GC controller.

While in the past I've said time and time again that people don't like motion controls that much (and this thread is clearly proof) I do think people who complain about not being able to use a controller for a motion-based console are just being huge babies. What did you expect? It's a Wii. It's built for motion control. If you picked up the Kinect, are you going to complain in 4 months about how every game requires you to move for it, and how it would be way better if you could just somehow sit down and use a normal 360 controller?

If you don't like the fact the Wii is a motion control console - sell your Wii. There isn't much point in having a console that's heavy on swinging your arms, if you just want to sit there and twiddle your thumbs, and then complain about why they released a system with motion controls.

[Vampyr]

By releasing some games, even just a few, like Kart and Brawl, with the option to use different controllers/formats, they created that expectation. And I love those games - I played Mario Kart Wii just yesterday (I used a gcn controller).

I see the Wii as a system with motion controls, not a motion control system. I feel like it's in everyone's best interest (both the players and Nintendo), to provide plenty of control options for any given game. If the motion controls are good and they work and are fun, people will use them. If they aren't, people won't, and if you don't provide any other alternative, people won't buy the game, just like I'm doing.

Controls are the single most important aspect of a game - it's your interface into that world. It's just something I can't look past.

A good example of what I mean is the DS, almost every DS game except the ones that use touching as a game component, give you alternatives. Often I use a combination of buttons and the touch screen. Giving players this option, and not forcing them to use the touch screen, has not been detrimental to the system at all.

[Typhoid]

Kart and Brawl are 2 of the best selling games that Nintendo has, not to mention they were released roughly around the beginning of the consoles life. By not having the use of a Gamecube controllers on those games would have been a really bad move sales-wise, as those games were really huge during the Gamecube's run. Donkey Kong Country, however - was not. So there are no die-hard DKC fans who stayed up late nights perfecting thumb twitches with a Gamecube controller. SNES controller, sure.

But I don't see what the problem is with DKCR. Much like New Super Mario Bros Wii, Either get used to the controls they have available (Like using the wiimote sideways, for example) - or just don't play the game.

[Storm Eagle]

I was playing on Sunday and got up to 7-5/Cog Jog. I had already gotten all the letters and puzzle pieces in that stage and the others before it. So after I got home from work, I just decided "what the heck" and went and completed all the remaining levels. So I finished it all last night. Even the Golden Palace.

In the Cliff area, 6-K/Perilous Passage has got to be the worst K level of them all. I mean, trying to escape all that lava while ascending, and those bats that follow you. Talk about a pain in the neck. Treacherous Track wasn't all that bad. Actually it must have been the only K level that didn't frustrate the hell out of me. I'm just glad that the game doesn't make you retrieve puzzle pieces again after losing lives in the stage in which they're found, like it does the letters. In 8-K/Five Monkey Trial, I NEEDED to get Diddy for this one, because it's way too easy to take hits in the last two parts. So the more hits I'm able to take while trying to finish that one, the better.

The rocket barrel stages are a pain, but 7-4/Gear Getaway and 8-2/Hot Rocket might have been the easiest ones for me to finish while getting all the puzzle pieces.

I tried finishing the Golden Palace with all five of its puzzle pieces. I can't believe how hard it was for me to get past the part with the three pillars with the exploding cherries on top. I only had Donkey Kong and I just couldn't make the jump with him. So I decided to get Diddy Kong from one of the levels and return to the Golden Palace level with him. Jumps from platform to platform were much easier that way. Now that I've finished the Golden Palace level, I've unlocked Mirror Mode, which I don't think I'm going to bother with. The levels were hard enough, and now they're reversing them, and making it so that only one hit can take you out, you can't use any items before going in the stages, and no help from Diddy? Yeah, no thanks. Though at least they don't make you get all the puzzle pieces and letters again.

[Angrist]

Originally Posted by Typhoid

If you don't like the fact the Wii is a motion control console - sell your Wii.

So how is encouraging people to sell their Wii a good strategy for Nintendo? They want to make money; they know there's an audience that would rather use buttons instead of gestures...

It's like that story a while back where Nintendo encouraged Eurocom to 'innovate the controls' in the Golden Eye remake. They ended up with some tacked on, crappy option to strafe by holding the A-button. Something similar worked for Metroid 1 & 2, but guess why it wasn't in MP3. It's a stupid option that nobody will use.
But hey, at least they're letting you choose.

Now with DKCR, Nintendo probably told Retro "add motion controls." Although they prefered rolling/pounding/blowing with a button, they had to map that to a gesture. And because of that, they had to disable GC/CC support. Yay, Wii is a motion console, whether it works or not!!

[Typhoid]

So how is encouraging people to sell their Wii a good strategy for Nintendo? They want to make money; they know there's an audience that would rather use buttons instead of gestures...

They aren't encouraging you to sell your Wii. I am. If you don't like what is out for the Wii, or you don't like the way the system is played - stop complaining and get rid of your system - because you (the people who complain about the controls) clearly don't like it as a whole.


Angrist, I don't think you're understanding why Mario Kart Wii and Smash Bros have GC controls, and other games don't.

Those games were huge last gen for Nintendo. And everyone who played those games played them on GC controllers. The reason it's an option for those games is because everyone who played them previous - played them with a Gamecube controller.

However - nobody played Donkey Kong Country (or Super Mario Bros, for that matter) on a Gamecube controller. They aren't alienating anyone by not using a Gamecube controller. The last time people played DKC was with an SNES (Same for Super Mario bros), so by allowing you to tilt the controller on it's side, it has much of the same (relative) layout as the previous installments of those specific games.

Now, if DKC and Super Mario Bros. were out for the Gamecube, then sure - you guys would have a compelling argument and some type of case. But since DKC hasn't been around since the SNES, your collective complaining just seems pointless.

[BreakABone]

Originally Posted by Angrist

I think you're missing the point here now BaB. This isn't about changing a habit, it's about controls that don't suit the game. The DKC games were always played with a SNES controller. I would personally play this game with the Classic Controller if it was supported, because I think it would be comfortable.

Okay I will say this again, this isn't really about Donkey Kong Country Returns alone, its about the general notion that Nintendo should include Cube/Classic Controller support in their games because people prefer it.
Replace DKCR with Galaxy, NSMBW, Kirby, Metroid, etc etc

Apparently Nintendo haven't found a good replacement for the Cubetroller, because lots of people still use it. Until they do (Yuu?), why not offer the extra control options? Are they honestly thinking it would hold gamers back? Give them some more credit, they know when motion controls work and when they don't. Nintendo is just being too stubborn, like with a lot of stuff.

Is Nintendo being stubborn or are gamers being stubborn?
How many years can people hold their breathes, Nintendo's not treating us right. We want Cube/classic/PS3/360 type controls in our game, and they shown time and time again they won't do it. Again Prime 3, Zelda, Galaxy 1/2, Endless Ocean, Kirby, Other M, the list goes on and on.

Originally Posted by Vampyr

No, I haven't, and now I probably never will. I'm basing my assessment on my previous experience with motion controls and platforming, as well as feedback from others (including you).

Which is perfectly fine I guess, but I find it odd that someone throws a stink about something when technically they haven't played it. I mean for all you know, it could work better for you than it did for me.

Yes, that is what I'm arguing. How is having a controller scheme with the nunchuck any more simple than a controller scheme with the classic controller? Both are addons that you plug into the bottom of a wii mote, except one has a d-pad that you could have used, which solves your initial problem of not enjoying the analog stick.

The BIG difference between the chuck and the Classic Controller, and I'm sure you thought about this when posted, is one comes standard with the console, the other you have to buy on its own. They aren't comparable at all.

And since when is it terrible business practice to do things to get more people to buy your game?

So let me ask, would you advocate Microsoft get Epic to include Kinect controls in the next Gears of War? Or maybe a patch for Halo Reach? Both of those would help get new people to buy your game... I don't think it makes sense, but from your point of view, its terrible business not to.

Controller options are extremely important. How many games out there let you customize some or all of your button configuration? Almost all of them.

Before we continue, how many Nintendo games allow you to mess around with your buttons? I can be wrong but I can't think of many since the SNES, and even then most of their games didn't allow it. They've always been stubborn on button placement.

Originally Posted by Vampyr

By releasing some games, even just a few, like Kart and Brawl, with the option to use different controllers/formats, they created that expectation. And I love those games - I played Mario Kart Wii just yesterday (I used a gcn controller). /quote]
I don't think Nintendo ever created those expectations, when you think about it, Brawl wasn't developed by them, even if it was of there doing, it was an outside studio for the most part.

And even with Mario Kart, I think the Wii controls took centerstage, and they threw a bone to the rest of the people. Personally, I really dislike the Cube controls for that game since they throw tricks onto the d-pad which I thought was an odd decision.

I see the Wii as a system with motion controls, not a motion control system. I feel like it's in everyone's best interest (both the players and Nintendo), to provide plenty of control options for any given game. If the motion controls are good and they work and are fun, people will use them. If they aren't, people won't, and if you don't provide any other alternative, people won't buy the game, just like I'm doing.

Your logic doesn't match the reality of the situation that most of their games are doing much better than the last two gens without the option for classic control support. And we won't even mention the gulf that is the difference between the console userbase they had on the Cube and the Wii.

Some people won't buy it, but how is that any different than any other game?

A good example of what I mean is the DS, almost every DS game except the ones that use touching as a game component, give you alternatives. Often I use a combination of buttons and the touch screen. Giving players this option, and not forcing them to use the touch screen, has not been detrimental to the system at all.

And that is because the DS includes buttons.

Like I said if you want Nintendo to offer options in their games that use the Wii-mote and Chuck without motion that is semi-viable.

To fix your DS analog, it would be like having a USB adapter to use your Cube controller on DS games instead of using the touch-screen/mic or the dual screen set up. Because you have to include a new party that isn't standard with the console.

Originally Posted by Angrist

So how is encouraging people to sell their Wii a good strategy for Nintendo? They want to make money; they know there's an audience that would rather use buttons instead of gestures...

Do they?
I mean if I'm Nintendo and I see that NSMBW has sold more than any Mario game in 15 years, I assume people want motion and they want 2D.
If I see TP sold better than Wind Waker, I assume people want motion in their Zelda games.
And it goes on and on down the list.
Motion controls haven't hurt the sales of any of their franchise this generation, aside from Metroid, but that's been on a downward slope since Prime.

It's like that story a while back where Nintendo encouraged Eurocom to 'innovate the controls' in the Golden Eye remake. They ended up with some tacked on, crappy option to strafe by holding the A-button. Something similar worked for Metroid 1 & 2, but guess why it wasn't in MP3. It's a stupid option that nobody will use.
But hey, at least they're letting you choose.

I'm not sure what you are talking about?
And I've played Goldeneye to completion, so explanation?

Now with DKCR, Nintendo probably told Retro "add motion controls." Although they prefered rolling/pounding/blowing with a button, they had to map that to a gesture. And because of that, they had to disable GC/CC support. Yay, Wii is a motion console, whether it works or not!!

I could see the first part, but the 2nd part wasn't gonna happen. Even if it had no motion, I don't think Nintendo would have offered GC/CC support. A case could be made that Metroid: Other M has no motion but doesn't offer GCN/CC support.

And ground pound and blowing are perfectly suited for a control, they aren't anything you need to do in a pinch. The problem really comes from mapping all 3 actions to the same motion.

Long rant, shorter version.
I really don't get the point in not making your default controller, the default set up for your consoles and its game nor do I think you need to compensate for people who want other options. If the game benefits from it and doesn't hurt using it with the core control fine, but don't complain if its not there. Its not mandatory, and really other than the Wii, there is no other console that has ever allowed you to re-use controls.