What do you think happens after death?

[Professor S]

Originally Posted by Teuthida

Heh, I was about to suggest you just reading a bio text book.

This is a common misunderstanding from many atheists about those that consider God as an alternative. My questions don't come from having not been educated on the matter, there are many biologists who who will point out the flaws in how we treat evolutionary theory, they come from formal and independent study and questioning things, and then treating unproven scientific assumptions with the same skepticism you would treat religious assumptions.

On a side note, besides a few college courses on biology, much of the exploration that led to to question assumed scientific fact has come from independent study. Also, I have not attended church since I was about 8 years old, but have looked to find my own way philosphically and spiritually as well. I think this has helped me remain objective and avoid indoctrination from either perspective.

So keep on believing there was a God factor until they finally (if ever) figure it out.

I'll admit those were some very well written and reasoned guesses you quoted... but they still remain guesses.

Also, I don't remember ever stating as part of this discussion that I believed there was a God factor, I merely said I'm open to the possibility and I have presented the contrarian point of view. Normally I'd say keeping one's options open would be considered a reasonable scientific practice when nothing has yet to be proven. But it seems blinders are the rule of the day when it comes to what can and cannot be considered.

[Teuthida]

*sigh* You were playing devil's advocate? Why ask what you already know? Wastes time. I only argued because I couldn't believe someone would disregard such evidence unless they weren't familiar with it.

All I do is look at evidence. I don't factor my beliefs into what has been proven, or try to disprove what can't be.

...well, you did force me to find that bit about the different methods they're currently undertaking to solve the origin of life. That was interesting I guess.

[Professor S]

Originally Posted by Teuthida

*sigh* You were playing devil's advocate? Why ask what you already know? Wastes time. I only argued because I couldn't believe someone would disregard such evidence unless they weren't familiar with it.

...well, you did force me to find that bit about the different methods they're currently undertaking to solve the origin of life. That was interesting I guess.

You just contradicted yourself. Socratic debate may be the only true source of intellectual growth, and quite honestly, it's not something we see in modern science. Considering what can't be proven can drive one to new heights.

Anyway, I've never disregarded any of the evidence that has been presented, but I regard that evidence as well as the significant questions, answerable and not answerable, that such evidence presents. In the face of those unanswered questions I am willing to include the possibility of design.

The answer to the question of the origins of life should be "I don't know", but thats not how the scientific community treats it. They say "I don't know, but it's definitely not God".

[Teuthida]

I suppose you might be right. It's been forever since I actually argued (if poorly) a position. Though I can't really see the point of debating something that can't be proven. Things are, aren't, or unknown. If unknown you conduct experiments.

I'll agree with you on folks who outright say there's no God...or gods...or force...or whatever. It's something unproven, thus they shouldn't let their opinion on the matter impact their work. Like Dawkins...he just comes off as a prick. On the origin of life it should be "I don't know, but I have a hypothesis, and will test it."

[KillerGremlin]

Originally Posted by TheGame

http://thecrazypastor.wordpress.com/...her-religions/

I've heard similar interpretations on the subject. My point was to challenge Prof S' observation on the commonality of a divine creator among humans. You also have to realize what the Bible and Scripture says differs from what organized religion practices. I assure you Muslims and Catholics aren't as tolerant. I mean look at the Middle East, those guys have been blowing each other up for thousands of years.

Originally Posted by TheGame

You have a misunderstanding of the difference between a scientific fact, law, and theory. A scientific fact is ANY observeable occurance. A scientific fact does not need an explination, its just something that we can observe. A scientific theory is an explination of HOW that occurance was created, or what causes that natural occurance, and in some cases just an explanation of how the occurance works. A scientific law is the math that we observe to be behind a natural occurance.

Check this out on wiki: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Evoluti...heory_and_fact

I was actually kinda suprised to find this article this morning. But I think it helps put this whole debate in perspective and explains my point.

The theory is just the explanation. A theory, as well thought out as it can be, cannot be proven to be true in all circumstances, and/or cannot be observed.

Touche. I always overcomplicated gravity, I sometimes forget it is just the tendency for two objects with mass to pull towards each other.

[KillerGremlin]

Originally Posted by Professor S

4) Evolutionary theory in it's totality is not fact. Sorry, it's not. Within a species is it fact? I'd say so. The problem and abuse comes when unscientific assumtions and extrapolations are made that shoe-horn evolution as fact across species, which is still unproven. Example: Bacteria. We know that aggressive use of anti-biotics leads to evolution within the species or even genus if you want to stretch it, making the bacteria resistant to treatment. The problem is that there is no proof that these mutations have mutated bacteria into something beyond bacteria. Maybe cross species evolution is impossible to prove. Okay... so is the existence of God. Pick your belief.

I believe in the holy ham sandwich...which sounds very yummy right about now.




So new question for everyone who believes in an afterlife....where does your conscious go when you die? Does it go somewhere, or is it dependent on body and you have some sort of external soul out there.

[Bond]

Originally Posted by KillerGremlin

So new question for everyone who believes in an afterlife....where does your conscious go when you die? Does it go somewhere, or is it dependent on body and you have some sort of external soul out there.

No idea, but I sort of like the idea of non-local consciousness - that when we die our consciousness is released from our body and spreads infinitely across the universe. It sounds very harmonious to me.

[Professor S]

Originally Posted by KillerGremlin

I believe in the holy ham sandwich...which sounds very yummy right about now.

mmmm.... sacrilicious...

So new question for everyone who believes in an afterlife....where does your conscious go when you die? Does it go somewhere, or is it dependent on body and you have some sort of external soul out there.

Well, I've had experiences with ghosts*, so I think at least some of them remain locally. To me, that is a terribly frightening prospect for my immortal consciousness/soul.

*I don't care to convince anyone else that they are real. Hell, if I didn't have the experiences I've had, with witnesses no less, I would think I was crazy too.

[KillerGremlin]

Originally Posted by Professor S

Well, I've had experiences with ghosts*, so I think at least some of them remain locally. To me, that is a terribly frightening prospect for my immortal consciousness/soul.

*I don't care to convince anyone else that they are real. Hell, if I didn't have the experiences I've had, with witnesses no less, I would think I was crazy too.

Do tell, how was the experience? Was it a friendly haunting?
You're not the first person I have heard say they have seen ghosts.

[Professor S]

My parent's house is haunted. It's been haunted by a woman at least for as long as I can remember. I've seen her 3 times in my life, and four of my friends ran into her once and those who were there will not come back.

First incident
- She's friendly, if disappearing for a long time is friendly, but gets "active" when people she doesn't know are in the house.
- Active: footsteps on the third floor and up and down the stairs, opening of closed doors on the third floor, full body apparitions.
- The incident: My parents were away and four of my friends were staying over to go to a golf outing the next day. Basically, the ghost was running laps up and down the stairs all night, depressed the end as if someone was climbing in, of the bed and one of my friends saw her in the doorway. Keep in mind I had not mentioned anything about her to them before any of this happened. They won't come back.

Second incident
- There is an upper body apparition of a colonial soldier that wanders the streets of my home town. Many have seen him, and I was lucky enough to spot him once turning into my driveway.

Third and only bad incident
- After my grandmother died, I lived at her house while my parents were in the midst of selling the property, and that took a long time. I had always felt "watched" in the house from the time I moved in, but didn't really think much of it. At moist I thought it was just another quiet haunting. Then doors started opening... and closing... by themselves while I watched. I don;t mean they creaked open, I mean the opened quickly and stopped on a dime, and sometimes slammed shut. When I started seeing my current wife is when things got bad. We had sex all over that house, and that's when things started to bang around randomly in the house and the cold spots started.
- The final straw was when I turn out the lights to go to bed after my then girlfriend left, and there were four LOUD bangs moving left to right, it felt like someone was next to my bed on the right hand side, and then a deafening SCREAM in my right ear, but the scream was more like radio static of a scream. I packed up my shit and left that night, and never came back. Even if it was my grandmother... FUCK THAT.

A little background about the area: I grew up near Chadds Ford, PA. It's a area near the Brandywine Battlefield (Revolutionary war), but there were battles all over that area including several bloody skirmishes in my home town of Thornbury Township. You can find random cannons in the woods if you look hard enough. This has always been my only explanation for the high occurence of hauntings in the area.

I currently live in Mount Penn, PA (near Reading) and my house is "clean", to quote the midget from Poltergeist. The first time I've ever lived in a house without a presence.

[KillerGremlin]

Hmmm...interesting. If any of that stuff happened to me I'd freak the fuck out.

I've always thought these experiences are double-edged sword. On one hand you have ACTUAL PROOF of something phenomenal. That would certainly change how I feel about life. On the other hand you have to live with the fear of the encounters for the rest of your life.

I've always wanted to do some serious research on the documented Exorcism cases. It's hard though because much of it gets shot down hard by psychology: and much of it should. There's a huge difference between being possessed or having dementia or psychosis.