President Obama Healthcare Speech

[TheGame]

Originally Posted by Professor S

Or it could be all the raucus town hall meetings and the thousands that showed up at the Capital over the weekend to protest... unless you think they're all employees of the healthcare companies and pharma companies (most that now support a public option, for the record).

But thats a difference of opinion and as you said, we'd be retreading old arguments.

I think that those outbursts at townhalls, and the 9-12 people are a very small and loud minority.

I'd really hope that this isn't a big portion of americans, or even a big part of the republican party..



(Read the guy's sign in the part at 3:03-3:19)

[KillerGremlin]

I'm certainly not qualified to make political discussion concerning Socialism vs. Capitalism (I mean I have some idea...) but holy fuck these people are morons:



There are good arguments about having concern for socialized health care, but these people are a mindless mob. What happened to mobs who were passionate for their cause and loved what they are fighting for? This is just a mob that has hatred towards Obama. You can't reach goals if you platform on hate and don't love the cause you are fighting for.

On a lighter note, many of these people look like they would be right at home at Walmart.

[Teuthida]

^ Saw that earlier today. When the interviewer called them out and actually explained the terms to them it made me realize they're not bad people; just really stupid and misinformed folks who are force fed lies which they eat with gusto.

[Professor S]

And I'm quite sure only the most scholarly and well spoken opponents were chosen to be included in those videos...

[KillerGremlin]

Originally Posted by Professor S

And I'm quite sure only the most scholarly and well spoken opponents were chosen to be included in those videos...

But what is the point of the rally? To offer a humane and logical alternative to socialized health care or to chastise Obama? It seems like most of the opposition in this rally is towards Obama and the current administration rather than actual policty. You and Bond have both made valid arguments concerning big Government controlling health care. And there is a lot to be said about Big Pharma's role and failed programs like Medicare and Medicaid. The Socialist ideal is NOT Hitler nor is it communism. Nor is Obama trying to make America a socialist country...health care reform is a logical step in the progress of humanity.

I realize this interviewer probably cherry picked the dumbest of the dumb, but why show up to a rally if you don't have any idea what you are rallying about?

[KillerGremlin]

Before this erupts into a passionate discussion I just want to say something about rallies and protests. Rallies and protests are supposed to inspire OTHER people as well as to make a statement and a stand. I look at the Civil Rights rallies or the Feminist rallies or the anti-Vietnam protests or the LBGT protests and I think...."wow...look at those brave people standing up for major injustice. Look at those people stand up for the struggling, suffering people out there."

When I look at these tea party rallies I think, "Wow...a bunch of dumb rednecks don't care about health care reform (they don't care about the millions of people with no health care) and they don't know the difference between political terms most people should have learned in 5th grade. And look! They think Obama is the anti-Christ! Because it says it in the Bible! Oh man...as a Catholic who has gone to church for 20 years, I bet big money that guy hasn't even read the Bible!"

If this rally was supposed to inspire me then I must confess I am quite flaccid. On the other hand, I have enjoyed the discussions here between Prof S and TheGame, you guys are quite entertaining. And Bond's maturity is perhaps a little too sobering for my tastes at times, but he makes some valid points. And Earl dresses up like Batman every night. So it's a win win.

[TheGame]

Originally Posted by Professor S

And I'm quite sure only the most scholarly and well spoken opponents were chosen to be included in those videos...

A scholarly and well spoken person probably wouldn't support the 9-12 deal, and probably woulnd't yell out like a moron at a town hall meeting.

[Vampyr]

Originally Posted by TheGame

A scholarly and well spoken person probably wouldn't support the 9-12 deal, and probably woulnd't yell out like a moron at a town hall meeting.

YOU LIE.

[TheGame]

Originally Posted by Vampyr

YOU LIE.

Haha.. damn you got me there... though I wouldn't call the guy who yelled that well spoken.

[Professor S]

All I can argue is my view point on the issue, which I've done many times and I think quite effectively. Regardless of whether or not you want to dismiss the opposition, you can't ignore it's size and effect on the discussion going on right now, even if you really really want to... and it seems like many of you really really want to.

It seems that when one side loses an argument, it it feels a ego driven need to dismiss the other side as stupid, ignorant, foolish or even now RACIST instead of recognizing the legitimate arguments and the effect they've had.

Funny... I never thought lying was a black stereotype! I suppose the race card was bound to be played sooner or later, and thankfully most people are too smart to fall for it in such a simple cut and dry case.

What's funnier is watching people grab at straws trying to find anything they can to smear their opponent when they can't win the issue at hand.

So does anyone else have anything to add other than grand generalizations and insults?

[Bond]

Okay, first of all, no one serious holds the views depicted in that video. The United States is a very, very populous country. We have plenty of room for misguided souls. I am confident the persons depicted in the video represent an extreme minority.

So, why do they receive so much attention? Because of this:

Originally Posted by KillerGremlin

You and Bond have both made valid arguments concerning big Government controlling health care.

Right, but does anyone on TV want to see someone like me bring out charts and bar graphs to demonstrate economic forces behind health care changes? I doubt it. On the other hand, who wants to see someone dumber than them make a fool of themselves on national TV? Lots of people!

I don't think we should be so much angry at these protestors for holding their views, but rather try to understand why they believe it to be so?

[TheGame]

Professor, the part in the speech where it was inturrupted by a "you lie" shout.. was Obama lying? To me the racism doesn't come in what is being argued, its how its being argued. Its being led by a lot of misguided hate and fear mongering.

Where were all the animated protests when Dick Cheny famously said "deficits don't matter"? Where were the congressmen yelling out "you lie" when Bush was linking Iraq to 9-11? Why weren't people standing outside of Bush town halls with their guns? Why is Obama constantly called a racist?

And Bond, I think its cheap to blame the media for the faults of the people who are actually making fools of themselves. The media would have no Ammo to play such "entertaining" opposition to the president if conservative talk show hosts, republican congressmen, and misguided Glen Beck followers didn't GIVE them the ammo to begin with. The media didn't make anyone blurt out "you lie" in an extremely disrespectful manner, a republican representative did it on his own.

Unless he's in on the media conspiracy too...

-EDIT-

Just to add to the last point a little. Do you think the Media should have congradulated or focused on all the other republican congressmen for staying quiet and not blurting out anything? Really?

[Professor S]

Originally Posted by TheGame

Professor, the part in the speech where it was inturrupted by a "you lie" shout.. was Obama lying? To me the racism doesn't come in what is being argued, its how its being argued. Its being led by a lot of misguided hate and fear mongering.

Was he technically lying? No. Was he either ignorant of deceitful in the realities of the HR 3200, which I assume was what he was referring to since it was the only bill that passed anything at that point, YES. And I explained how earlier, but I'll do so again.

While the bill states that no healthcare can be provided to illegals, there is no policing in place, and when amendments to the bill were introduced to police the policy they were shot down.

So according to HR 3200, it's basically a don't ask/don't tell policy that says one thing but refuses to enforce it making the "ban" worthless and ineffective. The fact that efforts to enforce the ban were shot down on multiple occassions leads us to the obvious conclusion that it is intentionally worthless and ineffective

It's this type of intellectual dishonesty that makes people yell things at inappropriate times...

Where were all the animated protests when Dick Cheny famously said "deficits don't matter"? Where were the congressmen yelling out "you lie" when Bush was linking Iraq to 9-11? Why weren't people standing outside of Bush town halls with their guns? Why is Obama constantly called a racist?

Ok, there is a lot in there, most of it a bit rediculous, but I'll take them one at a time.

1) Deficits - To compare the Bush deficits to the Obama deficits is the equivalent of comparing Pike's Peak to Mount Everest. Look at the numbers. In any case, I think Cheney was wrong and there has always been conservative resistance to spending, just not Republican party resistance, and that was a big mistake on their part because they valued pork/re-election instead of doing the right thing. You've certainly never heard me say that spending isn't a problem. Spending was a huge problem when the Republicans were in control under Bush, and is 10 times the problem now under the democrats.

Is there some hipocrisy from Repubs on spending, absolutley, but I would chalk that up to political gamemanship rather than "racism".

2) The "You lie" fiasco was a violation of protocol, not message. I remember a TON of Dems calling Bush a liar throughout his 8 years with even less to go on than Wilson did. They just never made the mistake of doing so in session. So were they racists as well, or does being member of the Democrat party absolve one of racist belief? So do you think it's the location of the accusation that is racist? If so, what locations are racist locations to voice dissent?

3) Town halls and guns - If you want to concentrate on the handful of unfortunate protesters who brought weapons, feel free, and by the way one of the people mentioned in those reports was a black man, but how is that necessarily racist? Are guns racist? Do guns hate black people? Could they have been reacting more to policy they hate? These are wild, illogical leaps you are making.

4) Obama is constantly called a racist? I remember Glenn Beck saying that once (maybe Rush but I'm not sure as I don't listen to him and rarely to Glenn), but constantly? And by who besides Glenn/Rush? Has a former president called Obama a racist, like Carter called the opposition? At best I'd say that the left and right are tied in the racism accusation competition, if that.

Looking at your comments, I'll just assume that now that Democrats are in power you view dissent as racism. It's a lazy and stupid argument and honestly you're better than that.

As for the media, where were they with the whole ACORN issue? You have days of filmed proof that a publicly funded community organization group is teaching people to avoid taxes and break the law in outrageous ways... and only FoxNews carries it? Regardless of political opinion or who broke the story, wasn't that news worthy of broadcast? Where was NBC, CBS, ABC, CNN, MSNBC, etc.?

No. They were too busy concentrating on Joe Wilson breaking protocol (regardless of the apology or the fact Pres. Obama accepted it) to cover real news.

There is no such thing s journalism anymore, at least not how it was taught to me in school. If you want the truth, find it yourself and question everything.



EDIT: Looking back on this thread, I see exactly how effective the race card can be. Are we talking about Healthcare reform anymore and it's merits/pitfalls? No. Instead we're talking about whether or not people's motives are racist and attacking PEOPLE instead of discussing IDEAS. It's called "ad hominem". Objective achieved, I guess. So much for honest public discourse. Socrates is rolling over in the his grave right about now (and Saul Alinski is cheering wildly)...

[manasecret]

Originally Posted by Professor S

As for the media, where were they with the whole ACORN issue? You have days of filmed proof that a publicly funded community organization group is teaching people to avoid taxes and break the law in outrageous ways... and only FoxNews carries it? Regardless of political opinion or who broke the story, wasn't that news worthy of broadcast? Where was NBC, CBS, ABC, CNN, MSNBC, etc.?

Just to comment on something I happen to know about, NPR ran a piece on the ACORN issue. They played the clip, and explained what happened.

But as you mentioned about the video from the D.C. rallies, the guys who made the ACORN video also only showed the worst example. It turns out they got lots more hidden camera footage of ACORN employees from other locations calling the cops on the supposed pimps. And yet none of those videos were included, only the worst example. Where's the journalistic integrity there?

EDIT: Not to mention it's on the front page of CNN.com right now.

[Professor S]

Originally Posted by manasecret

Just to comment on something I happen to know about, NPR ran a piece on the ACORN issue. They played the clip, and explained what happened.

But as you mentioned about the video from the D.C. rallies, the guys who made the ACORN video also only showed the worst example. It turns out they got lots more hidden camera footage of ACORN employees from other locations calling the cops on the supposed pimps. And yet none of those videos were included, only the worst example. Where's the journalistic integrity there?

EDIT: Not to mention it's on the front page of CNN.com right now.

There is one majory difference between comparing the ACORN and 9/12 issues, not that I agree with many 9/12'ers on many of their assertions or their methods.

ACORN takes public money. 9/12'ers don't.

As for those that threw them out, you don't get credit for doing what you're obviouly supposed to do. Now if the filmmaker were asked if anyone threw them out and they said no, then I think we could question their integrity, but the story is in the gross misconduct not whether or not some people behaved properly. I will agree that the journalist should have volunteered that some offices did not help them, but it should have beenno more than a disclosure.

The fact that it happened once is bad enough and should have been major news across the board, much less multiple times in several offices in several cities. I know that CNN and other places are covering it now, but thats because they are at the point they had to. It took them days to cover any of it, so I give them little to no credit.

EDIT: I found the ACORN artile on CNN... at the bottom after scrolling for a bit, and it concentrates on new training for employees, which I hope is a good thing and they really follo through on the promise.

Add to that how Van Jones was never really looked into, and they spent more time covering the fact he called Republicans "assholes" than the fact that he is a 9/11 truther and at least formerly a communist. Once again, both of these things are legitimate news items regardless of idealogy and they were largely ignored until immedacy forced their recognition.

I give credit to NPR for carrying it, and I never include them in my thoughts on journalistic corruption. They might be one of the last remaining bastions of journalistic integrity.