The Stimulus Package

[Professor S]

Originally Posted by KillerGremlin

I think you may have made some generalizations there.

That made me laugh so hard I literally cried.

And Jason, I understand what Obama wants to do and his world view. The problem is that the American people diagree with him in this case.

My question is this: If the public hates this bill, and they keep on hating it more and more as time goes on, if you look at the polls. Knowing this, should Obama still push it through?

[Jason1]

Originally Posted by Professor S

That made me laugh so hard I literally cried.

And Jason, I understand what Obama wants to do and his world view. The problem is that the American people diagree with him in this case.

My question is this: If the public hates this bill, and they keep on hating it more and more as time goes on, if you look at the polls. Knowing this, should Obama still push it through?

Where are you getting this information that the public hates this bill? Last I heard support had slipped some since a month ago, I'll admit that, but the numbers I saw last were 51% approve and I think 29 or 39% dissaprove, with the rest I'm assuming undecided. Thats still majority supporting it.

[Bond]

According to Rasmussen Reports Americans oppose the Stimulus Package 37-43%.

[Bond]

Ron Paul on the compromise stimulus bill:

[TheGame]

This whole thread is just funny to me. Starting it with a video from fake news.. I mean fox news first already put it on the wrong foot. From what I know, here are a few pieces of truth.

1) Republican's answer for this financial situation is to have more tax cuts. We watched Bush do tax cut after tax cut after tax cut, and we see how perfectly it worked. If it were up to the republicans we'd get down to 0% tax before they start thinking logically. Tax cuts and giving out free cash to spend to the public does not help the economy, it hurts it.

2) Jason is right to an extent, the republicans do NOT want to play ball with the democrats. As much as Obama is sucking up to them, they truly have no intention of buying into his agenda. NOT because the fact that what he's doing may be bad for hte country in the long run, but because they need something to stand on politically. The fact is Obama could come up with a stimulus package that looked like it was written by the heads of the GOP themselves, it could be exactly what they think the country needs, and they'd still reject it for political reasons. They dont' give a shit about the country, they want to have a chance in the next elections..

Which brings me to my third point...

3) The republican party right now is stuck. By them being such a small minority now, with having such a high approval rating president, they have to be a bit more wise about how they go about voting.

They could sit back and cock block and vote against the stimulus packages that Obama comes up with, and not allow it to pass. If they do this, and the economy gets worse, they will get blamed soley for every problem that happens. Especially considering Obama reached out to them to help them mold the package, they'd be an easy scapegoat for any issues. "We tried to fix things, but they didn't want to help."

I really don't think they have a choice but to go with it in the end. Even though they're talking a lot (since Obama empowered them), it'd be a political nightmare for the party if they fight it.

[TheGame]

By the way, the whole "its not a stimulus, its a spending bill" makes no sense whatsoever. That talking point is just a very retarded play on words to make people think its bad. I dare someone give real reasoning to why that bill isn't a stimulus package. Yes it has spending, like every stimulus package in history. And yes its purpose is to help stimulate the economy and create jobs.

[Bond]

Originally Posted by TheGame

1) Republican's answer for this financial situation is to have more tax cuts. We watched Bush do tax cut after tax cut after tax cut, and we see how perfectly it worked. If it were up to the republicans we'd get down to 0% tax before they start thinking logically. Tax cuts and giving out free cash to spend to the public does not help the economy, it hurts it.

Could you please elaborate on your view that tax cuts hurt the economy? Also, do you believe, in reverse, that tax increases help the economy?

[BreakABone]

Originally Posted by Bond

Could you please elaborate on your view that tax cuts hurt the economy? Also, do you believe, in reverse, that tax increases help the economy?

Well, he is right in the sense that we've gone through it a bit recently, and aren't in the best condition.

And as stated before, the middle/lower class are less likely to spend the money they get back instead using it to save or pay off debt.

Now the concept is giving larger companies tax breaks will allow them to invest in more jobs and stuff, but there has to be a demand for their product or service and if the lower/middle class people aren't buying that chews up a lot of your potential audience.

[Jason1]

As GAME said, we have had tax cuts for the last 8 years and look where it's got us. Republicans for some reason think Tax cuts will magically fix all our problems, and that couldnt be further from the truth.

[Professor S]

Originally Posted by TheGame

This whole thread is just funny to me. Starting it with a video from fake news.. I mean fox news first already put it on the wrong foot. From what I know, here are a few pieces of truth.

Did you bother to listen to anything said in the first clip? Pay attention to any of the content? What about the other opinions in it? It looks like Fox isn;t the only one that is guilty of bias...

1) Republican's answer for this financial situation is to have more tax cuts. We watched Bush do tax cut after tax cut after tax cut, and we see how perfectly it worked. If it were up to the republicans we'd get down to 0% tax before they start thinking logically. Tax cuts and giving out free cash to spend to the public does not help the economy, it hurts it.

Most of the Republicans aren't calling for just tax cuts, they also want spending, but they want it aimed at stimulating the economy, and not attempting to replace it. Its a disingenuous argument and its democrats that are abusing this place and time in history to force through a plan with fear and not ideas

If you want to talk about spending plans, then it should be a discussion for appropriations, not stimulus. Its flat out dishonest.

2) Jason is right to an extent, the republicans do NOT want to play ball with the democrats. As much as Obama is sucking up to them, they truly have no intention of buying into his agenda. NOT because the fact that what he's doing may be bad for hte country in the long run, but because they need something to stand on politically. The fact is Obama could come up with a stimulus package that looked like it was written by the heads of the GOP themselves, it could be exactly what they think the country needs, and they'd still reject it for political reasons. They dont' give a shit about the country, they want to have a chance in the next elections..

I should remind you that 11 democrats voted againt this bill in the House. I'd also challenge you to find a Republican who still believes in handing out "free cash" as you put it. In fact, the "free cash" is integral to Obama's tax plan, not the Republicans.

I find it surprising that you would make these gross accusations and you are one of the people who are arguing on this bill without mentioning any of its content. Do you even know what is in this bill, or are are you just upset that the opposition hasn't simply handed the King his crown? Do you really believe that only one side holds the vanguard of honest discussion and debate? Is it possible that Republicans could be against this bill because they believe it would truly harm out nation?

3) The republican party right now is stuck. By them being such a small minority now, with having such a high approval rating president, they have to be a bit more wise about how they go about voting.

Actually, if you look at polls this is one of the best things to happen to Republicans in a long time. The PEOPLE don't like this bill, and they don;t like it because its garbage.

They could sit back and cock block and vote against the stimulus packages that Obama comes up with, and not allow it to pass. If they do this, and the economy gets worse, they will get blamed soley for every problem that happens. Especially considering Obama reached out to them to help them mold the package, they'd be an easy scapegoat for any issues. "We tried to fix things, but they didn't want to help."

What comprimise did Obama make? He talked to Republicans about his views, and that was that. No Republican was invited to help shape the bill in the least. Even Clinton and Reagan worked hand in hand with the oppositon party to shape important bills like this. Obama has done NOTHING similar beside make bold statements and expect everyone simply to do as he says, and when they disagree, accuse them of partisanship.

I really don't think they have a choice but to go with it in the end. Even though they're talking a lot (since Obama empowered them), it'd be a political nightmare for the party if they fight it.

They likely will pass this vote, but when they do the bill will have been stripped down a bit and in the end thats a good thing.

And you seem to be very strongly behind this bill. Why?

[TheGame]

Originally Posted by Bond

Could you please elaborate on your view that tax cuts hurt the economy? Also, do you believe, in reverse, that tax increases help the economy?

"We watched Bush do tax cut after tax cut after tax cut, and we see how perfectly it worked."

That should be answer enough. But, ask yourself this. If the country is in huge debt to the fed and to other countries, where is money supposed to be generated to pay off this debt? Give me an example of how a tax cut will make the government more money, and I'll gladly disarm it.

In my opinion, I think Obama shouldn't have touched taxes.

The republican tax cut strategy is 100% political, and in my opinion makes no sense whatsoever. They keep pushing for tax cuts over and over, even when it makes no sense.. And when their opposition gets into office they're stuck with the tough decision of raising taxes to help the situation.

Tax cuts do not help the economy, they help republicans win elections. But thanks to Bush, a lot more people see things for what they are. Hopefully Obama will take the responceable stance in the long run, and be smart enough to make people understand the truth of the sitation.

(But with how this stimulus bill is, I guess that's too late. Politics defeats common sense again.)

I actually like that the stimulus now is more of a long term thing, and not one of those bush spending bills that's treat everything like an emergency. "Zomg I need 1 trillion to give to my buddies before I leave office!" That helped...

[TheGame]

Professor.. I'm not behind the bill at all. In fact, I'm not for any stimulus package. I'm just bashing how politics work in general in this situation. Maybe you should read it back with that thought in mind.

I'm not defending the package at all.

And by the way, he met with the house republicans, and allowed their ideas to change the bill to an extent.

[Professor S]

Originally Posted by TheGame

"We watched Bush do tax cut after tax cut after tax cut, and we see how perfectly it worked."

That should be answer enough. But, ask yourself this. If the country is in huge debt to the fed and to other countries, where is money supposed to be generated to pay off this debt? Give me an example of how a tax cut will make the government more money, and I'll gladly disarm it.

Easy. It's been shown and admitted by Charles Gibson in the Obama interview that cutting capital gains increases revenue from capital gains taxes. Glad that argument is done with...

And if the country is in such debt, like you said, how is borrowing $1,000,000,000,000.00 for the "stimulus plan" going to fix that?

The republican tax cut strategy is 100% political, and in my opinion makes no sense whatsoever. They keep pushing for tax cuts over and over, even when it makes no sense.. And when their opposition gets into office they're stuck with the tough decision of raising taxes to help the situation.

Tax cuts do not help the economy, they help republicans win elections. But thanks to Bush, a lot more people see things for what they are. Hopefully Obama will take the responceable stance in the long run, and be smart enough to make people understand the truth of the sitation.

So in your argument then Obama would be the biggest Republican ever. His plans are to eliminate federal taxes for over 50% of citizens, AND send many of them tax rebate checks. Talk about a vote grab... evil republican Obama...

I actually like that the stimulus now is more of a long term thing, and not one of those bush spending bills that's treat everything like an emergency. "Zomg I need 1 trillion to give to my buddies before I leave office!" That helped...

Thats fine that you like it, but its not a stimulus plan and thaty makes it a dishonest argument for this bill.

[Bond]

Originally Posted by TheGame

"We watched Bush do tax cut after tax cut after tax cut, and we see how perfectly it worked."

That should be answer enough. But, ask yourself this. If the country is in huge debt to the fed and to other countries, where is money supposed to be generated to pay off this debt? Give me an example of how a tax cut will make the government more money, and I'll gladly disarm it.

In my opinion, I think Obama shouldn't have touched taxes.

The republican tax cut strategy is 100% political, and in my opinion makes no sense whatsoever. They keep pushing for tax cuts over and over, even when it makes no sense.. And when their opposition gets into office they're stuck with the tough decision of raising taxes to help the situation.

Tax cuts do not help the economy, they help republicans win elections. But thanks to Bush, a lot more people see things for what they are. Hopefully Obama will take the responceable stance in the long run, and be smart enough to make people understand the truth of the sitation.

(But with how this stimulus bill is, I guess that's too late. Politics defeats common sense again.)

I actually like that the stimulus now is more of a long term thing, and not one of those bush spending bills that's treat everything like an emergency. "Zomg I need 1 trillion to give to my buddies before I leave office!" That helped...

I'll try to reply to this this coming weekend, when I'll hopefully have time to engage in an economic discussion full of bar graphs and data.

Real quick: I *think* the issue here comes from a fundamental misunderstanding of tax cuts, coupled with the need to consider other economic events in the past eight years.

[Bond]

Originally Posted by TheGame

"We watched Bush do tax cut after tax cut after tax cut, and we see how perfectly it worked."

It seems the popular thing today to blame all the country's woes on Bush. Now, I wasn't his biggest fan either, but this is unfair. In this hypothetical and highly unrealistic situation, you have held all other factors but tax cuts constant. America's economy is far more complex than this, as is its interaction with the world economy.

Also, the recent banking collapse has nothing to do with Bush's tax cuts. Please see this ten-page New York Times article for the main cause behind the collapse (which, in short, was due to out-dated risk management software).

That should be answer enough. But, ask yourself this. If the country is in huge debt to the fed and to other countries, where is money supposed to be generated to pay off this debt? Give me an example of how a tax cut will make the government more money, and I'll gladly disarm it.

Here is a fundamental misunderstanding of tax cuts. The recent dramatic rise in debt is not due to tax cuts. It is due to increased spending, above and beyond tax revenue generated by the government.

Remember, there is little correlation between tax rates and tax revenue:



However, there is a strong correlation between tax revenue and GDP:



Since tax revenue increases with ever-increasing GDP, it makes sense to facilitate private economic growth, through smart tax policies. So, no matter the tax rate, tax revenue (what matters), remains largely the same percentage of overall GDP:



Unfortunately, that's all I have time for today. I hope this makes things a little clearer.