The Stimulus Package

[Jason1]

Originally Posted by Professor S

Question: We had 70% tax rates before (even higher, in fact) under FDR and Carter. How did those rates work out for the economy during their presidencies?

Not nearly as terrible as the Bush tax-cuts turned out now...maybe dont raise it right now, but after the economy recovers a little we need to spread this wealth around, instead of just letting the rich get richer and the poor get poorer.

Carter was an underrated president, he actually did a lot of good for our country.

[Professor S]

Originally Posted by Jason1

Not nearly as terrible as the Bush tax-cuts turned out now...maybe dont raise it right now, but after the economy recovers a little we need to spread this wealth around, instead of just letting the rich get richer and the poor get poorer.

Not as bad as the Bush created economy? Really? Unemplyment under FDR never went below 14% and averaged well over 20% for all 8 years before WWII. Inflation rates under Carter were at double digits.

I'm not saying that Bush's toleration of harmful regulations and non-existant oversight were good in the end, but lets have some perspective.

Carter was an underrated president, he actually did a lot of good for our country.

How so? (Honest question)

[Jason1]

Carter did wonderful things for human rights all around the world, and had a very good foreign policy. He was also an advocate for gay rights, and did good things for the environment.

But you probably wouldnt understand any of this, you being a gas guzzling gay hating nascar watching truck driving Republican.

[Bond]

Originally Posted by Jason1

But you probably wouldnt understand any of this, you being a gas guzzling gay hating nascar watching truck driving Republican.

That was a little harsh. Why all the hate?

Well-intentioned people can disagree.

[Professor S]

Originally Posted by Jason1

Carter did wonderful things for human rights all around the world, and had a very good foreign policy. He was also an advocate for gay rights, and did good things for the environment.

His foreign policy led to a complete mess in the Israel/Palestinian relationship, he backed the Ayatollah against the Shah in Iran that helped lead to the creating of Hamas and Hezbollah and Russia invaded Afghanistan even after Carter tried to appease them. Miserable Fail.

Environment? Maybe he tried, but inevitably failed because his plans dictated to business instead of working with buiness. He also backed rediculous ideas like photo-voltaic cells that are STILL too inefficient and expensive to be a viable energy alternative. Trying to succeed and good intentions does not equal success. Fail.

Gay rights? I agree.

But you probably wouldnt understand any of this, you being a gas guzzling gay hating nascar watching truck driving Republican.

1) My car gets 28mpg

2) I support gay marriage and gay rights. I believe its a civil rights issue not unlike that of the 60's and one of my best friends from high school and college is gay. You're the one in this conversation that has exhibited prejudice and blind hatred, not me.

3) I've watched about 3 minutes of Nascar in the last 10 years.

4) I don't own a truck

5) I am a Republican, so you got one right. Good for you.

Honestly, these opinions of yours just show that you listen to no one else but yourself. I've posted about gay rights numerous times on these forums, yet you just hand out blanket accusations because of my party affiliation. Everything is good vs. evil. You don't think or bother to inform yourself about anything you speak about and I'm sure you embarrass others that sympathize to your world view.

In the end, your ignorance and hate don't even bother me anymore. All I have to do is ask you questions and let you humiliate yourself. In the end, its more pathetic and sad than irritating.

[KillerGremlin]

Originally Posted by Jason1

The top 1% of the Population in the United States has 40% of the countries wealth. We need to bring back the 70% tax bracket so we can spread this wealth around, and create more equality.

They also give a lot of people jobs/support a large portion of the economy/contribute to the government etc.

You need people with money to employ people without money, at least that's my basic understanding (and believe me I have minimal understanding) of economy.

[Professor S]

Originally Posted by KillerGremlin

They also give a lot of people jobs/support a large portion of the economy/contribute to the government etc.

You need people with money to employ people without money, at least that's my basic understanding (and believe me I have minimal understanding) of economy.

Thats is an inconvenient truth for many people. My dad's small construction business is a perfect example of how the system works:

He is middle income and employs about 5-10 people at a time depending on the level of business he has, but his work comes from very wealthy people and large organizations/corporations.

When the wealthy get hit, they stop building new houses, additions, patios, etc. so there is no work for him to do. When the wealthy are not building or expaninding their businesses/homes he has no work, so he is forced to lay off his emplayees, who have been on unemployment since late November. They are out of work because my dad is out of work. Soemtimes I feel like people think businesses WANT to layoff workers. This is not the case as its usually a bad sign for the company as a whole.

Now if we adopt the ethic that wealthy people are the problem and then apply punitive economic measures against them, its takes them that much longer to get back to the level where they can reinvest and create more work, so its takes forever for the economy as a whole to recover, or in the case of FDR's New Deal, it takes a worldwide transformative disaster for it to recover.

This doesn't just affect construction, either. Its affects marketing, advertising, retail, manufactuting (nothing sells, why build more?) and more. Its all interconnected and WE are all interconnected. This idea of us vs. them has to end because we are all part of each other's success. Every time in out history that we've had punitive tax rates for the wealthy we have ALL suffered, and suffered for extended periods of time.

Contempt for wealth will never build it.

[BreakABone]

http://www.whitehouse.gov/assets/doc...nal_State1.pdf

A breakdown down, state by state on how this bill will help.

[Bond]

Okay, while I currently don't have time to fully research this bill, from what I do know (which is limited) I am starting to feel sick.

[Jonbo298]

I'm not becoming a big fan of this "stimulus" either. It feels like I'm hearing the same propaganda that Bush's administration said the first time they wanted the bailout. "Pass it or we're doomed!" to sum it up from Bush's end. Now from Obama's end it's becoming "Pass it or the recession never ends! DOOM!"

Seriously, STFU and drop the non-stimulus bullshit. In fact, just drop it altogether. The economy will recover, it's just needing time instead of just band-aids. Hell, Obama is just not on the right track even after voting for him.

Voting to delay the DTV transition was downright stupid as hell. People will transition once you cut it off. If not, they had AMPLE warning. Hell, I only see a transition ad every 10 minutes anymore. Unless your blind and deaf, you ARE aware. YOU choose to wait. TV is not a right, it's a privilege.

Now the "This might be a stimulus" plan is souring on me too with the useless BS I already discussed above.

[Professor S]

Originally Posted by Jonbo298

Seriously, STFU and drop the non-stimulus bullshit. In fact, just drop it altogether. The economy will recover, it's just needing time instead of just band-aids. Hell, Obama is just not on the right track even after voting for him.

I think some people doubt the resiliency of the American economy, as long as it is allowed to follow natural courses. We've had bad recessions before, and we'll have them again.

Working in the Real Estate industry, I can tell you one of the biggest enemies of economic progress is uncertainty. Before the market crash, all I heard was how there were home buyers out on the market, but they were waiting to see how low interest rates would go and if the Fed would drop rates again (nevermind the fact that the rates the Fed dropped had little to no effect on mortagages). Afterv August, it didn't matter anymore as everyone was scared to death. Things appear to be getting better now, though. A lot of realtors I have talked to have said showing and interest have gone up quite a bit.

Our economy needs decisiveness and direction, and has needed it for some time. If the government had made bold statements regarding what they will and will not do and gave the current bill any real focus, the wheels of undustry may have started turning earlier. Companies are frozen, wondering what the hell is going on in Washington. No one wants to make a move until they know what canvass they'll be asked to paint on.

[BreakABone]

http://cspan.org/Watch/watch.aspx?MediaId=HP-A-15159

If nothing else... this man would be fun to listen to.

[Professor S]

What frustrates me is that President Obama keeps talking about bipartisanship, but then makes a hard left turn and essentially states "Bipartisanship mean just do what we tell you to". He talks about what the American people call for, yet ignores the massive and growing public opposition to this bill, and then tries to scare them to death by threatening them with a depression if we don't rush in a spending bill (he called it as much)

To me, he has betrayed his campaign promises and its only week 3.
So much for change.

Lindsay Graham is my hero of the week. I tried to find his whole speech from the senate floor, but this clipped version was the best I could find. The part they skipped that I would include is when he said he WANTED to spend to help stimulate the economy, but that this was not the right kind of spending.




This clip from Hardball is more detailed in his views

[Jason1]

Obama tried Bi-partisanship, but there are way too many republicans who are just too stubborn and stupid to possibly agree with anything the Democrats are trying to do to help. Now, the Republicans are being cry babies, sore losers if you will, and making the entire country suffer in the process. Obama actually cares about the American people, thats why he has gotten a little more firm, effectivley stating "look, I won the election, the american people voted for me, and this is what im going to do and I'll get it done wether I have 1 republican supporting me or 35. Real people are suffering too much to delay this any longer, the priority is getting the bill passed, not getting 100% republican approval"

Bottem line republicans really only care about themselves and the rich.

[KillerGremlin]

Originally Posted by Jason1

Obama tried Bi-partisanship, but there are way too many republicans who are just too stubborn and stupid to possibly agree with anything the Democrats are trying to do to help. Now, the Republicans are being cry babies, sore losers if you will, and making the entire country suffer in the process. Obama actually cares about the American people, thats why he has gotten a little more firm, effectivley stating "look, I won the election, the american people voted for me, and this is what im going to do and I'll get it done wether I have 1 republican supporting me or 35. Real people are suffering too much to delay this any longer, the priority is getting the bill passed, not getting 100% republican approval"

Bottem line republicans really only care about themselves and the rich.

I think you may have made some generalizations there.