Russia Invades Georgia

[KillerGremlin]

Basically, it is my understanding that the Cold War was started and prolonged by a series of escalating events.

Putting a "missile defense system" in Poland is an escalating event, is it not?

We may see it as politically neutral or non-offensive, but Russia does not. The fact that we knew putting it in Poland would upset Russia makes the entire situation an ESCALATING EVENT.

Don't we have enough shit to worry about with the Middle East? Can't we just let the UN sort Russia out?

I swear I'm moving to Canada...legal marijuana, free health care, and a French government that would rather eat wine and cheese than be "noble".

[manasecret]

Originally Posted by KillerGremlin

This "defensive" implementation is more like an offense implementation in my opinion. And, prior to this situation we knew Russia would be pissed if we put our little defense system in Poland. So, why did we do it anyway? It takes two people to have a fight, and we certainly aren't helping by provoking Russia. It also doesn't help that Russia is a global superpower, Putin isn't a great guy, and we've already gone through a long Cold War with Russia.

That's a good point there about being offensive with our defense, and the way I've been thinking about it but couldn't put into words. It's kind of like how Bush and Co. tried to spruce up the idea of invading Iraq, how did they put it? It was like being defensive by attacking first. But isn't that just a back asswards way of saying you're being offensive?

Like the name of that South Park episode, "Two Days Before the Day After Tomorrow."

Why do we need to have this arms race? Is it really that necessary to be offensive with a defensive system in Europe?

[Angrist]

I've learned not to worry about politics.

[KillerGremlin]

Originally Posted by Angrist

I've learned not to worry about politics.

I've learned that I am the product of the American Idol generation. If I try to bring up politics in an intelligent discussion (so this excludes drunk talk) people either get upset or don't care.

Proof that people don't care: we still have the same broke-as-fuck two party system. I'm not a big fan of McCain or Obama and there is not a single thing I can do about it.

Sometimes I think we need another World War or we need to reinstate the draft to WAKE PEOPLE UP. Why should people care about the news and politics when they can turn on the tube and ignore the problems in our world?

There's no draft, people don't have to fight. They don't remind people that a billion people in the world survive on less than a dollar a day. There's no news flash showing the children dying in African countries from lack of food and water. Ignorance is the best kind of bliss....

I just wonder what will happen when our current generation is forced to pick up politics.

[manasecret]

Ick, more of this "in my day" nostalgia crap, and you're only 20! What is it about humans that makes us always think that everything was so much better back in the day?

Yes, I know what you mean about bringing up politics in a discussion, and people don't want to talk about it. Do you really think things were much different in previous generations? Weren't people just as focused on celebrities 20, 30, 40, 50, 60, 70, 80, and 90 years ago? Wasn't the two-party system the same broke-as-fuck as it was 100 years ago? I know plenty of people my age and younger that are more than willing to talk politics and are very opinionated about, some of them here! Don't you think that it has always been that some people give a shit about politics, and others don't? Or do you really think this generation has all of sudden become so different than the past ones?

I'm going to go out on a limb and say that people didn't know nearly as much about starving children in Africa even 30 years ago, let alone 50, or 100, as we do today. I can prove this just by Googling "starving children in Africa" and read all the articles that come up. I'm going to go out on a further limb and say that we contribute much more time and money to those causes as a whole today, including people our age, than we did in those previous decades. I think people in the Peace Corps our age would be pissed off if you told them that they don't care.

And you talk about needing another World War?? Don't be so glib.

[Bond]

Originally Posted by manasecret

Ick, more of this "in my day" nostalgia crap, and you're only 20! What is it about humans that makes us always think that everything was so much better back in the day?

Yes, I know what you mean about bringing up politics in a discussion, and people don't want to talk about it. Do you really think things were much different in previous generations? Weren't people just as focused on celebrities 20, 30, 40, 50, 60, 70, 80, and 90 years ago? Wasn't the two-party system the same broke-as-fuck as it was 100 years ago? I know plenty of people my age and younger that are more than willing to talk politics and are very opinionated about, some of them here! Don't you think that it has always been that some people give a shit about politics, and others don't? Or do you really think this generation has all of sudden become so different than the past ones?

I'm going to go out on a limb and say that people didn't know nearly as much about starving children in Africa even 30 years ago, let alone 50, or 100, as we do today. I can prove this just by Googling "starving children in Africa" and read all the articles that come up. I'm going to go out on a further limb and say that we contribute much more time and money to those causes as a whole today, including people our age, than we did in those previous decades. I think people in the Peace Corps our age would be pissed off if you told them that they don't care.

And you talk about needing another World War?? Don't be so glib.

I think, for sure, the quality of our politicians has gone way down. Ronald Reagan, John F Kennedy, John Adams, George Washington, Thomas Jefferson, Abraham Lincoln... there aren't statesmen like them anymore.

[Professor S]

Too much here to reply to, but I find the basis of the arguments agianst the US/Poland agreement to be a bit... awkward at best.

Russia invades Georgia, says they're going to leave multple times but never attempt to do so for obvious expansionist reasons, the US and Poland agree to a defense deal inspiring Russia to theaten a NUCLEAR ATTACK... and we're the ones escalating this mess?

Is there ANYTHING that goes on in the world that isn't America's fault?

[Professor S]

Originally Posted by manasecret

Ick, more of this "in my day" nostalgia crap, and you're only 20! What is it about humans that makes us always think that everything was so much better back in the day?

Yes, I know what you mean about bringing up politics in a discussion, and people don't want to talk about it. Do you really think things were much different in previous generations? Weren't people just as focused on celebrities 20, 30, 40, 50, 60, 70, 80, and 90 years ago? Wasn't the two-party system the same broke-as-fuck as it was 100 years ago? I know plenty of people my age and younger that are more than willing to talk politics and are very opinionated about, some of them here! Don't you think that it has always been that some people give a shit about politics, and others don't? Or do you really think this generation has all of sudden become so different than the past ones?

I'm going to go out on a limb and say that people didn't know nearly as much about starving children in Africa even 30 years ago, let alone 50, or 100, as we do today. I can prove this just by Googling "starving children in Africa" and read all the articles that come up. I'm going to go out on a further limb and say that we contribute much more time and money to those causes as a whole today, including people our age, than we did in those previous decades. I think people in the Peace Corps our age would be pissed off if you told them that they don't care.

And you talk about needing another World War?? Don't be so glib.

There is so much here, I would have to quote every single sentence to point out every flaw. Instead I'll list the main ones:

1) You are completely different from previous generations, just as my generation is completely different in most aspects from Baby Boomers and they are completely different from Veterans, and we are from different generations (I'm an GenX, you are a Echo Boomer or Millenial).

I teach a class on generational Identities that is based on seven published studies, so I doubt you know more on this subject than I... unless you, you know, GOOGLE it, then you would of course be an expert, just like your generation apparently has mastered Africa's ills by reading a Wikipedia entry.

And you think I'M glib?

2) Do your generation really know that much about starving children in Africa? If you do, why doesn't anyone care enough to do anything about it? Has knowing about starving children in Africa stopped ANYTHING? No, while we might know MORE about tharving childen in Africa, in the end our knowledge changes NOTHING. Actions change the world, not knowledge, and you can only act on knowledge when history and experience put that knowledge into context.

By the way, I find your arrogance about how much your generation KNOWS to be silly. If your generation knows so much, why was LIVE AID created by Baby Boomers ands the Children's Miracle Network created by Veterans? We've known quite a bit about Africa and world events for a long time now, without the aid of the misinformation and bias bible that is the internet.

That whole section of your post was assinine, to be honest.

3) And I never said I wanted to start a World War, and in history, it has been INACTION that has made World Wars inevitable. I could run through every single parallel bewteen this situation and those in the past that have lead to horror, but you've made it quite obvious making decisions based on evidence and history mean nothing to you, so I won't bother.

In the end my main reason why I think the younger generations don't care about world events, but they know about the, and that makes it worse. Knowledge is not a virtue, and in fact, if you are aware of the evils of the world, but still do nothing or advocate inaction.... well, someone said it better than I:

"All that is necessary for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing."

- Edmund Burke (1729 - 1797)

[manasecret]

I guess I should have quoted KillerGremlin? My post came after his, it was response to his, not yours. I wasn't calling you glib, I didn't say you wanted to start a World War, etc. Please reread and repost, as you obviously replied with the wrong idea in your head.

I'll respond anyway to some of it because of how much crap you spew, which of course must be all completely correct because you teach a class on the subject. While I respect that you teach and kudos to you, excuse me for doubting your complete expertise on the subject simply because you teach a class on it.

Originally Posted by Professor S

There is so much here, I would have to quote every single sentence to point out every flaw. Instead I'll list the main ones:

1) You are completely different from previous generations, just as my generation is completely different in most aspects from Baby Boomers and they are completely different from Veterans, and we are from different generations (I'm an GenX, you are a Echo Boomer or Millenial).

Our generation being "completely different" from previous generations, "completely" being the key word here, is false and you know it. I figured someone used to arguing wouldn't use absolute terms like that.

Yes, of course the generations have differences. But going back to what KG was bringing up (and what I was responding to), do you really think that our generation today cares any less and does any less about the world's problems than the generations before? If so, prove it, because until you prove otherwise it sounds like just more of the nostalgic crap that every human on this earth seems prone to.

KG mentioned American Idol specifically -- haven't there been celebrities and the adoration of celebrities for the whole past century? He mentions the broke-as-fuck two-party system like it hasn't been that way for two centuries prior, with some major breakups in the system only two or three times. You pick apart my post, but not KG's post. KG's post, which is an opinion piece that boils down to the same ol' trite, "This generation is so much worse than previous generations, back in the day everything was great!" argument that I hear all the time, but never has any facts to back it up with. That argument, or lack of one, irks me.

To act as if our generation doesn't care or do anything about the world problems is asinine and insulting. Here's a list of things off the top of my head that our generation has participated in:

1. Peace Corps
2. Live Aid - EDIT: I must be thinking of a different concert charity, I could have sworn Live Aid or something similar to it still goes on annually. I must be thinking of Live 8 and Live Earth.
3. UNICEF
4. Countless volunteer programs at universities and high schools across the U.S.
5. Child's Play
6. Countless facebook groups and events raising money for countless charities

And these are ones I just thought of. And in response to the inevitable argument about facebook groups (or anything similar) being useless, raising awareness and raising money are noble goals. Is holding a rock concert any different?

I teach a class on generational Identities that is based on seven published studies, so I doubt you know more on this subject than I... unless you, you know, GOOGLE it, then you would of course be an expert, just like your generation apparently has mastered Africa's ills by reading a Wikipedia entry.

2) Do your generation really know that much about starving children in Africa? If you do, why doesn't anyone care enough to do anything about it? Has knowing about starving children in Africa stopped ANYTHING? No, while we might know MORE about tharving childen in Africa, in the end our knowledge changes NOTHING. Actions change the world, not knowledge, and you can only act on knowledge when history and experience put that knowledge into context.

By the way, I find your arrogance about how much your generation KNOWS to be silly. If your generation knows so much, why was LIVE AID created by Baby Boomers ands the Children's Miracle Network created by Veterans? We've known quite a bit about Africa and world events for a long time now, without the aid of the misinformation and bias bible that is the internet.

I didn't mean that our generation has mastered Africa's ills any better than any previous generation. What I meant was that our generation as a whole knows more about the problems of Africa and the rest of the world than previous generations at a similar age simply by the mass of information out there. (To clarify just a little more, I mean that more individuals know more about the world's problems than the number that did in previous generations.)

How was information spread to the masses before the 1990s? Through newspapers, TV, libraries, and other media. How is information spread to the masses now? Through all of those sources, PLUS the biggest and most complete and most up-to-date library the world has ever known and that only gets stronger every day, the internet. Now, which one trumps the other in how much information is available?

Heh, Internet bashing, that's a new one for me, especially odd since of course you use the internet for the same purposes as the rest of us. How many of your arguments have you waged with facts gleaned solely from the internet?

3) And I never said I wanted to start a World War, and in history, it has been INACTION that has made World Wars inevitable. I could run through every single parallel bewteen this situation and those in the past that have lead to horror, but you've made it quite obvious making decisions based on evidence and history mean nothing to you, so I won't bother.

This one makes me laugh. Please prove that I have made "it quite obvious making decisions based on evidence and history mean nothing to" me, and make sure to include references to evidence and the history of my posts. Or maybe that was just a shot because you thought I was responding to your post?

In the end my main reason why I think the younger generations don't care about world events, but they know about the, and that makes it worse. Knowledge is not a virtue, and in fact, if you are aware of the evils of the world, but still do nothing or advocate inaction.... well, someone said it better than I:

In the end, my main point was that denouncing our entire generation as a bunch of people that don't care about the world is hogwash, and if you're going to say that then at least attempt to offer some proof for your opinion. (Another hint -- a thread from a board about video games doesn't count.) To me it sounds like the exact same thing that every previous generation says about the generation that comes after them. Everyone always thinks their generation was the best one ever, and kids these days never do anything right, not like in my day! And yet the world keeps on turning as different generations come along, and the world is a far better place today then it was 100, 80, 50, 20, whatever years ago.

[Professor S]

Mana, you're quibbling over small points. You criticize me for using absolutes and generalizations without realizing that absolutes based on generalizations are the ONLY WAY to analyze a generation. We're talking about millions of people. It is a given that the assertions are not true for every individual.

But that doesn't mean that there aren't severe and definitive differences when we analyze those generations when we combine the individuals based on shared experience and attitudes. Once again, that doesn't mean there can;t be exceptions, as I recognize I am an exception in many cases, but the exception does not invalidate the rule.

And for the record, almost none of the charitable organizations were created by the bottom two generations and compared to the size of the generations our involvement in them isn't even worth mentioning. Try again.

[Professor S]

But the funny part is, through all of this quibbling about whether generational identities are valid in this ccontext, we STILL SEE NO ATTEMPT TO PROVE OTHERWISE IN THE CONTEXT OF THIS THREAD.

Mana, it seems you'd rather argue the obvious than truly contend my point by actually posting about world events. You can tell me what your generation and my does and doesn't do all you like, but all the bottom two generations have SHOWN me is the exact opposite, regardless of your rhetoric.

[Professor S]

Back on topic:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/7576556.stm

Russia finally pulls out... oh wait... not so much.

[manasecret]

Originally Posted by Professor S

Too much here to reply to, but I find the basis of the arguments agianst the US/Poland agreement to be a bit... awkward at best.

Russia invades Georgia, says they're going to leave multple times but never attempt to do so for obvious expansionist reasons, the US and Poland agree to a defense deal inspiring Russia to theaten a NUCLEAR ATTACK... and we're the ones escalating this mess?

Is there ANYTHING that goes on in the world that isn't America's fault?

Correct me if I'm wrong, but I think you missed the first step in the sequence of events.

Didn't Georgia invade South Ossetia first?

But the funny part is, through all of this quibbling about whether generational identities are valid in this ccontext, we STILL SEE NO ATTEMPT TO PROVE OTHERWISE IN THE CONTEXT OF THIS THREAD.

Mana, it seems you'd rather argue the obvious than truly contend my point by actually posting about world events.

Ugh, completely not true. Please look back. I had moved on, and then another post was made (by KG) about how worthless his and my generation is, which I guess I should have just sat by and not cared that someone was shit-talking my generation. Then it would have been more of this not caring that my generation apparently only does.

You can tell me what your generation and my does and doesn't do all you like, but all the bottom two generations have SHOWN me is the exact opposite, regardless of your rhetoric.

So you and I have both presented opposing opinions, neither with meaningful evidence. Whoop dee doo. But I figured and hoped since you had seven studies to refer to you might actually bring in some interesting statistics, but I guess not. I guess you'll just be another old man in a long history of old men that bemoans the state of the youth without actually backing up your shit-talking, while the generation below you rolls their eyes.

[manasecret]

Dah, I forgot the part I meant most to respond to.

Originally Posted by Professor S

Mana, you're quibbling over small points. You criticize me for using absolutes and generalizations without realizing that absolutes based on generalizations are the ONLY WAY to analyze a generation. We're talking about millions of people. It is a given that the assertions are not true for every individual.

But that doesn't mean that there aren't severe and definitive differences when we analyze those generations when we combine the individuals based on shared experience and attitudes. Once again, that doesn't mean there can;t be exceptions, as I recognize I am an exception in many cases, but the exception does not invalidate the rule.

And for the record, almost none of the charitable organizations were created by the bottom two generations and compared to the size of the generations our involvement in them isn't even worth mentioning. Try again.

Prove it then. Do you have some kind of statistics you are referring to about how much money and time one generation contributed over another? Or just generalization based on your own experience?

Yes, I understand that generalizations can be generally correct, that's the idea, but unless you have statistics or studies or trends to back up your generalization, then your generalization is as good as any other. If you have some studies to refer to, I would like for you to share some of what you know. I'll make another thread if that makes you feel better about it.

[Angrist]

My WoW guild leader had 2 chat rules:

1. No religion.
2. No politics.

He was a wise man. Before we killed him because he was a catholic and against the UN.