Legal or Illegal: Abortion?

[Vampyr]

Bond - That is wrong on so many levels, I'm very unimpressed and a little astounded that you would write that and believe it.

Having unprotected sex is a risk. It’s a risk that could produce a human, and that risk must be accepted, in fact, it is the responsibility of those engaging in unprotected sex to be aware of the possibility of a child – there is no excuse.

Really. Really? Really. Most modern birth control is around 98% effective, which I guess is the same as 100%. Women enjoy being raped, too, anyone who has watched enough porn related to that fetish knows that. They willingly partake in it and there simply is no excuse if they complain should they become pregnant.

It's embarrassing that someone with a thinking mind would call aborting a mass of cells not capable of thought as murder. A few weeks before my last school year was out there was a huge protest on campus of "pro-life" people, which all these pictures of "babies dying", and all these signs up saying "Warning: Genocide" ahead. They compared it to the holocaust. One of the professors at my campus, who is Jewish and teaches the Holocaust said to one of the people, "How dare you compare this to the Holocaust."

And did you even consider a situation where having the baby could kill the mother? If my girlfriend and future wife were to be in this situation, I would surely choose her over an unborn.

It is the woman's right to reproduce, and no one else has the right to tell her how to use her body, and force her into dying because something not even human yet should live.

And what if you know that the baby is going to be horribly defected at birth? Do they deserve to live a life worse than death?

The potential for life isn't life, otherwise every guy who masturbates or every woman that has a period should be labeled as serial killers.

If an unborn is a human, then why doesn't the census count them? Why don't they have funerals for miscarriages? For that matter, why aren't woman who miscarriage tried for accidental manslaughter? Why do people say "we have two kids and one on the way" rather than "we have three kids." They. Are. Not. Human.

And I don't see -you- ever having to face this choice. You'll never have to expel a 10 pound object out of a tiny orifice on your body, the difficulty of which could cause an aneurysm in your brain that will kill you. You're trying to make a decision for an entire group of people on a subject you can never fully understand. What if a group of women voted that you had to have your balls removed if you had sperm that could cause birth defects?

And what? Are you really going to argue that women should just "have the baby anyway and give it up for adoption"? Yeah, because foster homes and orphanages aren't already over crowded. And again, that's really easy for someone to say that will never actually have to do it. Sorry, but mine and yours part in the "miracle" of life is incredibly small.

Completely ridiculous argument.

[Bond]

Originally Posted by Vampyr

Really. Really? Really. Most modern birth control is around 98% effective, which I guess is the same as 100%. Women enjoy being raped, too, anyone who has watched enough porn related to that fetish knows that. They willingly partake in it and there simply is no excuse if they complain should they become pregnant.

I don't understand what you're getting at. I don't believe I advocated rape? I apologize if that was the misconception.

It's embarrassing that someone with a thinking mind would call aborting a mass of cells not capable of thought as murder.

We are talking about the mass of cells that creates a human, correct? When do you think this mass of cells becomes a human? A month? Two months? Three months? ... ?

A few weeks before my last school year was out there was a huge protest on campus of "pro-life" people, which all these pictures of "babies dying", and all these signs up saying "Warning: Genocide" ahead. They compared it to the holocaust. One of the professors at my campus, who is Jewish and teaches the Holocaust said to one of the people, "How dare you compare this to the Holocaust."

I didn't compare abortion to the Holocaust?

And did you even consider a situation where having the baby could kill the mother? If my girlfriend and future wife were to be in this situation, I would surely choose her over an unborn.

Just because I didn't address this scenario doesn't mean I didn't consider it. As I stated, I intentionally kept my post brief. If the baby threatens the life of the mother then the baby is infringing upon the woman's life. This is a unique scenario which requires a unique course of action.

It is the woman's right to reproduce, and no one else has the right to tell her how to use her body, and force her into dying because something not even human yet should live.

I agree that it is a woman's right to reproduce, but along with that right comes a responsibility. The right of reproduction is tandem to the responsibility of producing life. For every right we have as humans we also have a responsibility. And again, you are using a unique scenario. If you would like to discuss unique scenarios that is fine, but we can't generalize from those unique scenarios.

And what if you know that the baby is going to be horribly defected at birth? Do they deserve to live a life worse than death?

In the question you are implying that there is a life worse than death - which is debatable. What is life? What is death? Wonderful philosophical questions.

The potential for life isn't life, otherwise every guy who masturbates or every woman that has a period should be labeled as serial killers.

That's actually not what I said. I believe I stated engaging in unprotected sex creates potential for life, not masturbation. Not sure if this was a misunderstanding or something else?

If an unborn is a human, then why doesn't the census count them? Why don't they have funerals for miscarriages? For that matter, why aren't woman who miscarriage tried for accidental manslaughter? Why do people say "we have two kids and one on the way" rather than "we have three kids." They. Are. Not. Human.

If a pregnant woman is murdered, why is the murderer charged with double homicide?


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After rereading your post, I can't help but think you took my post as a personal attack against you. In fact, I could feel the anger in your typing as I read. I hope you don't feel this way, as my intention was not to personally attack you, but rather to raise a discussion concerning abortion.

[KillerGremlin]

Originally Posted by Vampyr

It's embarrassing that someone with a thinking mind would call aborting a mass of cells not capable of thought as murder. A few weeks before my last school year was out there was a huge protest on campus of "pro-life" people, which all these pictures of "babies dying", and all these signs up saying "Warning: Genocide" ahead. They compared it to the holocaust. One of the professors at my campus, who is Jewish and teaches the Holocaust said to one of the people, "How dare you compare this to the Holocaust."

I have to ask, what is the difference between a 1-year old and a 15-year old? The 1-year old is less developed, so certainly it is less entitled to life than the 15-year old, right? You haven't clearly stated where you stand on when life begins, but at DNA fertilization a human is indeed conceived. Maybe it's not called a baby yet, but it still has life or life potential. Killing that baby may not seem as squeamish as killing a man, but you essentially remove the potential for future life from that living thing, which is morally reprehensible according to MANY people, not just religious folk (I inject the religious folk thing because some people associate morals with religion, however many moral codes have absolutely nothing to do with religion. I just wanted to clarify that). However, by adding the "Holocaust survivor" bs to your statement, you are simply sensationalizing it in an effort to evoke some sort of sympathy out of your argument. It's a clever ploy but it's not going to work on me. I don't really give a rats ass what your professor did or what horrible suffering he went through, that has very little bound on the topic at hand, which is abortion.

Edit: It sounds like you got suckered into your professor's clever sensationalism too. Abortion, by some definitions, is comparative to ending a human life. Your professor has an easy topic to work with; the Holocaust was terrible, so certainly it must be worse than abortion. Your professor completely negated to have an argument. I hope your professor teaches a math or a science and not an English or philosophy or psychology class.

Originally Posted by Vampyr

And did you even consider a situation where having the baby could kill the mother? If my girlfriend and future wife were to be in this situation, I would surely choose her over an unborn.

If the abortion is premeditated, that is to say, if the mother knows she is killing the baby, by many moral codes this is reprehensible. It is morally wrong. You are thinking in terms of reactions, not moral standards, and in a sense you are actually missing out on a great argument.

Originally Posted by Vampyr

It is the woman's right to reproduce, and no one else has the right to tell her how to use her body, and force her into dying because something not even human yet should live.

This is a sensationalist argument, but certainly one that has some truths. I agree, if a woman has to choose between her life or her unborn child's she should be able to make that choice. What I can't agree with is that if she chose to abort that child that it would be morally permissible.

Originally Posted by Vampyr

And what if you know that the baby is going to be horribly defected at birth? Do they deserve to live a life worse than death?

You aren't in a position to answer that question because you aren't deciding if you want to live or die. I can't answer that question either. But, I would hope that a parent would not make a morally reprehensible decision to abort their child because they found it it will be born with down syndrome. There is such a thing as adoption.

Edit: I am playing devil's advocate with this point, as I already stated in response to Bond that I put slightly different values on human life at certain times. However, it still remains morally reprehensible to have an abortion in my mind. I'm mainly trying to stimulate a reaction or argument from you, as I'm curious to where you stand and I think if you give some more thought into your statement you might write out a more interesting response.

Originally Posted by Vampyr

The potential for life isn't life, otherwise every guy who masturbates or every woman that has a period should be labeled as serial killers.

This is absolutely NOT TRUE. Read the biology stuff I posted.

Originally Posted by Vampyr

If an unborn is a human, then why doesn't the census count them? Why don't they have funerals for miscarriages? For that matter, why aren't woman who miscarriage tried for accidental manslaughter? Why do people say "we have two kids and one on the way" rather than "we have three kids." They. Are. Not. Human.

Again, read what I posted about abortions in nature


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I don't want to nitpick, but if this is the path down which future arguments will go in this thread, I foresee this quickly heading the direction of our last politics thread.