The Problem of Evil

[Professor S]

Well, it all depends on what you think is the definition of Evil. There are theological beliefs in evil, but quite honestly, I think the dieas of good and evil go far beyond religion. They are a shared belief that pretty much all humans have, regardless of religion or lack thereof.

Is evil a compulsion to do horrific things by a deity working towards our distruction?

Is evil a natural trait developed to ensure survival of that being's DNA that can go terribly awry?

Is evil simply a lack of empathy?

Is evil apathy towards your common man?

I tend not to try and lend definitions to that which is the sublime. I know what evil is, but if I had the capacity to put something so archetypical to the human existance into words, it would no longer be an adequate definition.

Back to the specific ideas, I find the entire wording of the "problem" to be extraordinarily weak. To even state that the existence of evil is incompatible with God reveals an severe misunderstanding of religion in general. And honestly, there is no reason that evil and God have to be married at all.

Most events that I would describe as stereotypically "evil" took place in cultures that abandoned God (Hitler's Germany and Stalin's Russia).

So then, if we want to bring this back to the religious statements, is evil the absence of God?

[Bond]

Originally Posted by Professor S

Back to the specific ideas, I find the entire wording of the "problem" to be extraordinarily weak. To even state that the existence of evil is incompatible with God reveals an severe misunderstanding of religion in general. And honestly, there is no reason that evil and God have to be married at all.

I believe I said that some would view the existence of evil logically incompatible with God. Personally, I do not, but I was trying to look at the issue from a generalist point of view.

Now, you addressed the evils created by man in Nazi Germany and Communist Russia, but how do you feel about gratuitous suffering - the kind that is not inflicted by humans, but we suffer at the hands of?

[TheGame]

Originally Posted by Bond

I believe I said that some would view the existence of evil logically incompatible with God.

Anyone who believes that has a huge misunderstanding about religion in general. Ask yourself, what is evil? According to the most religions, anything that's against their god's will is evil, and everything god approves of is good. Some religons support war, some don't. Some support people haiving 10 wives, some don't. Some support worldy lusts, some don't.

So all in all, whoever said evil is relative is correct.

The general consent from christians is that god created men with free will, just because he wanted men to chose him themselves. Of course, men would frown upon this idea, but that's what's believed to be true generally.

If he wanted mindless slaves who had no choice but to follow him and who had no will to do evil or suffer whatsoever.. well, we wouldn't be haivng this conversation. :P Maybe he felt that having people chose to follow him was better than enforcing the will on people to follow him.

So following god and his own morals is good, rejecting them is evil. And if someone rejects it he has every right to react however he wants to it... cause he's god?

Hope that clears it up somewhat for you. According to religion: Following him = good, not following = evil, god himself = whatever he wants to be... you can call him good or evil, that's your choice. Most people who believe and follow would call him good for giving them the oppertunity in the first place.

[Bond]

Again, I wasn't stating my opinion, I was stating others opinions. I was trying to cover the issue fairly objectively.

I've had twelve years of religious education. I'm fairly well versed when it comes to Christianity/Islam/Judaism/Taoism/Buddhism.

[TheGame]

Originally Posted by Bond

Again, I wasn't stating my opinion, I was stating others opinions. I was trying to cover the issue fairly objectively.

I've had twelve years of religious education. I'm fairly well versed when it comes to Christianity/Islam/Judaism/Taoism/Buddhism.

Note: I wasn't attacking you personally. You just said that some people (not nessicarily yourself) use the existance of evil as a reason that it wouldn't have been reasonable for god to exist. I was explaining how evil is relative to the religion/nation/person you are talking about. There is no "objective" way to define evil really, there's only subjective. One day's good can be the next's evil. And vice versa.

No need to get somewhat defensive, I just offered the true explanation for the classification of evil, and how it doesn't debunk god's existance whatsoever.. If you think the info I gave in my last post is wrong though, feel free to explain how.

[Bond]

Originally Posted by TheGame

Note: I wasn't attacking you personally. You just said that some people (not nessicarily yourself) use the existance of evil as a reason that it wouldn't have been reasonable for god to exist. I was explaining how evil is relative to the religion/nation/person you are talking about. There is no "objective" way to define evil really, there's only subjective. One day's good can be the next's evil. And vice versa.

No need to get somewhat defensive, I just offered the true explanation for the classification of evil, and how it doesn't debunk god's existance whatsoever.. If you think the info I gave in my last post is wrong though, feel free to explain how.

I was trying to look at the issue objectively and not input my own personal opinions in the original post. The reason why I was somewhat defensive when it comes to religion in particular is because I would consider myself fairly well educated when it comes to religions - whether they be western or eastern.

Anyway, no hard feelings.

In an effort to continue on the discussion, you seem to believe in an all powerful all good god, how do you explain the amount of natural suffering that we as humans endure?

[TheGame]

Originally Posted by Bond

In an effort to continue on the discussion, you seem to believe in an all powerful all good god, how do you explain the amount of natural suffering that we as humans endure?

From my personal standpoint? I'm not going to preach to you guys here. :P But if you go back to the book of Genesis there's your answer for me.

As for your wording as an all powerful "good" god, that can be taken out of context. I agree with my last post when I said someone can call god good, evil, or whatever. I just feel god has the right to be however he choses to be, my opinion of him is positive, but that doesn't mean everything he does is meant to be agreed with by everybody.

Think of killing for example.. the word in itself is seen as evil by most people. But there's a lot of circumstances where the same people would approve of it to prove a point or to protect themselves, or even to punish those who do something equally bad. Every single freedom and right a person has in the world was gained by someone dying for it, and someone killing for it. It just depends on what side of the fence you're on.

But yeah, for my opinion suffering read Genesis.

[Angrist]

If you want a very satisfying and hopeful answer to the problem of evil, read these two pages: http://www.watchtower.org/e/20010515/article_01.htm and http://www.watchtower.org/e/20010515/article_02.htm. Actually the first page is just an introduction, you can skip it.

I'll give you some highlights (about 1/3 of the original page):

When God created the first human, he produced more than just a body with a brain. Further, God did not create Adam and Eve to be mindless robots. He implanted in them the faculty of free will. And that was a fine gift, for "God saw everything he had made and, look! it was very good." (Genesis 1:31)

However, was the fine gift of free will to be used without limits? In directions given to early Christians, God's Word answers: "Be as free people, and yet holding your freedom, not as a blind for badness, but as slaves of God." (1 Peter 2:16) For the common good, there must be boundaries.

Humans were not created to be independent of God. God made mankind subject to his physical laws, such as the law of gravity. Similarly, he made humans to be subject to his moral laws, which are designed to result in a harmonious society. For good reason, then, God's Word urges: "Trust in Jehovah with all your heart and do not lean upon your own understanding."—Proverbs 3:5.

What went wrong? God gave our first parents, Adam and Eve, a perfect start. Of their own free will, they stepped outside the boundaries of his laws. (Genesis, chapter 3) "Through one man [Adam] sin entered into the world and death through sin, and thus death spread to all men because they had all sinned."—Romans 5:12.

The main issue - sovereignty. When Adam and Eve rebelled against God, they challenged his sovereignty, that is, his right to rule. Jehovah could have destroyed them and started over with another couple, but that would not have settled the issue of whose rulership is right and best for people. Granted time to develop their societies according to their own ideas, humans would demonstrate beyond any doubt whether rulership independent from God could ever be successful.

God will soon intervene in human affairs. The vindication of Jehovah God's sovereignty by means of the heavenly Kingdom is the Bible's theme. Jesus made this his foremost teaching. He said: "This good news of the kingdom will be preached in all the inhabited earth for a witness to all the nations; and then the end will come."—Matthew 24:14.

When God's rulership replaces man's rule, who will survive and who will not? At Proverbs 2:21, 22, we are assured: "The upright [who uphold God's rule] are the ones that will reside in the earth, and the blameless are the ones that will be left over in it. As regards the wicked [who do not uphold God's rule], they will be cut off from the very earth."

A marvelous new world. Marvelous physical benefits will flow to obedient humans living in God's new world. There will be a canceling out of all the bad consequences of rebellion against God's rule. Imperfection, sickness, old age, and death will be things of the past. The Bible assures us: "No resident will say: 'I am sick.'" Moreover, the Scriptures promise: "At that time the eyes of the blind ones will be opened, and the very ears of the deaf ones will be unstopped. At that time the lame one will climb up just as a stag does, and the tongue of the speechless one will cry out in gladness." (Isaiah 33:24; 35:5, 6) What a thrill it will be to enjoy vibrant health every day—forever!

What about the billions of people who have died? Those in God's memory will be brought back to life, for "there is going to be a resurrection of both the righteous and the unrighteous." (Acts 24:15) Yes, the dead will be restored to life. They will be taught the wonderful truths regarding God's rulership and be given the opportunity to live forever in Paradise.—John 5:28, 29.



So........... I couldn't have said it better. Conclusion: evil is tolerated for a time, to prove once and for all that people are better off living with God. The world we live in now is not what God wants and He will change it soon. All suffering will be compensated for, even death.