Heaven & Hell

Bond · 07-05-2006, 08:51 PM

- Do you believe in heaven and/or hell?

- If so, how do you see each place/state of mind in your head?

- Would Adolf Hitler be in your hell?

Jonbo298 · 07-05-2006, 09:49 PM

I'm weird on it.

I believe there is some form of a heaven. Hell..I tend to not believe in. From how I see it, mistakes I make on Earth doesn't make me horrible in the afterlife. Your bad memories are erased and only the times of happiness (as cheesy as that sounds) are remembered and anyone is forgiven. Yes, even Adolf Hitler.

I dont know how to picture Heaven *if* it exists.

Bond · 07-05-2006, 10:05 PM

So then you don't believe in justice?

Jonbo298 · 07-05-2006, 10:38 PM

I believe there is some form of a heaven. Hell..I tend to not believe in. From how I see it, mistakes I make on Earth doesn't make me horrible in the afterlife. Your bad memories are erased and only the times of happiness (as cheesy as that sounds) are remembered and anyone is forgiven. Yes, even Adolf Hitler.

I'm talking about the afterlife, not now.

Plus, this is MY own view. This isn't me conforming myself ot someone. Heck, I didnt even say I fully believe in what I said. Just how I would see it for myself. So ridicule me all you want

Bond · 07-05-2006, 10:44 PM

I wasn't ridiculing you at all. I was simply trying to clarify. I think most people view the afterlife as a sort of justice to what one has done on Earth.

Neo · 07-05-2006, 11:13 PM

I think this strongly relates to the concept of good and evil so I'm going to comment on that. I don't believe in good and evil - they are just labels we apply to categorize actions. There are only actions and the consequences of those actions. "There is nothing good or bad but thinking makes it so." Good and evil are simply concepts; There isn't this physical stuff called good and evil floating about in the atmosphere. I also believe in doing what's right because YOU believe it's right, and not because an invisible man who lives in the sky tells you what is right. Most people do what is right because they want to be rewarded with the gift of everlasting life in heaven or they are afraid of being punished and going to hell if they don't do what God says. I'm not saying I think God does or does not exist, I'm simply saying I do what is right based on my own personal integrity and what I believe is important. I don't know what will happen to me when I die I just know what I have to do while I'm here.

That is one thing many Christians do not understand about regarding atheists. They have this misconception that atheists can't have any morality if they don't believe in a God who provides a backdrop for absolute morality. I know many atheists who are very moral people because they have strength of character. They are very emotionally mature in the sense that they don't need that emotional crutch (to use the governor of MN's words) in order to believe in right and wrong.

I can tell you I don't believe in a traditional hell where people go to burn for ever and ever. Think about what that would really mean....You know how painful it is to experience a burn even for a few seconds? Does anyone really deserve an eternity of that feeling? An eternity is a long time. What would be the point, anyway? Isn't the purpose of punishment to teach someone a lesson? What kind of lesson lasts for an eternity? And what can be taught through physical pain? Wouldn't a better punishment (to take the Hitler example) be to be born into a life in which you have to watch your entire family and everyone you love be killed? Isn't the only way to really make someone understand something is by making them experience that specific kind of pain themselves?

DarkMaster · 07-05-2006, 11:28 PM

I have a question for anyone who doesn't believe in some form of God or an afterlife. What do you have to gain?

I mean think about it. Say you took a gamble and just, for the hell of it, decided to believe in God, even though he may not exist. And then you die one day, and guess what? Holy sh*t, God exists. Well good thing you believed right? Cause now you're going to heaven, and eternal bliss, and all that.

But if he doesn't exist? Well then you had nothing to lose anyway, right? Like just before you enter that realm of eternal darkness and nothing, are you going to think to yourself "dammit, I shouldn't have spent all that time believing in God and an afterlife!"?

Bond · 07-05-2006, 11:34 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DarkMaster

I have a question for anyone who doesn't believe in some form of God or an afterlife. What do you have to gain?

I mean think about it. Say you took a gamble and just, for the hell of it, decided to believe in God, even though he may not exist. And then you die one day, and guess what? Holy sh*t, God exists. Well good thing you believed right? Cause now you're going to heaven, and eternal bliss, and all that.

But if he doesn't exist? Well then you had nothing to lose anyway, right? Like just before you enter that realm of eternal darkness and nothing, are you going to think to yourself "dammit, I shouldn't have spent all that time believing in God and an afterlife!"?

I have a funny idea some people would rather not live a lie (if they truly don't believe in God). And you also make it sound as if it's really easy to believe in God. I mean, if you truly don't believe in a higher power, then you shouldn't. It wasn't in your cards.

Neo · 07-05-2006, 11:37 PM

Ah, Pascal's wager. Pascal said that given that we do not know it is better to believe. Though what does God think of gamblers? And what if you bet on the wrong God?

Anyway I refuse to believe in something out of fear.

Quote:

Originally Posted by DarkMaster

I have a question for anyone who doesn't believe in some form of God or an afterlife. What do you have to gain?

Emotional independence, strength of character, more free time on Sunday.

Bond · 07-05-2006, 11:42 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Neo

Emotional independence, strength of character, more free time on Sunday.

Emotional indepenence? What do you mean?

Perhaps you gain the illusion of strength of character.

DarkMaster · 07-06-2006, 12:08 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bond

I have a funny idea some people would rather not live a lie (if they truly don't believe in God). And you also make it sound as if it's really easy to believe in God. I mean, if you truly don't believe in a higher power, then you shouldn't. It wasn't in your cards.

I think you're taking what I said the wrong way. I'm not trying to say that anyone who doesn't believe in a God or an afterlife is some kind of heathen, or that their choice to do so is wrong and meaningless.

I mean, people can do and think whatever the hell they want. But to have such a bleak outlook on the world, thinking that nothing exists after death and that we're all just part of some large coincedence and that our faith is nothing more than a product of fear for our mortality; as logically as that all may sound, what's the point in thinking that way?

What I'm trying to say is, you may think you're gaining some kind of emotional independance by not adhering to the common beliefs of fellow homo sapiens, but when it all comes down to it, isn't it better to have some kind of hope that life is more than just what we see, and something greater than us does exist?

Bond · 07-06-2006, 12:12 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DarkMaster

isn't it better to have some kind of hope that life is more than just what we see, and something greater than us does exist?

Not if you truly don't believe in it. Because then you're lying to yourself and that is a far greater crime than not believing in an afterlife.

Neo · 07-06-2006, 12:18 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bond

Emotional indepenence? What do you mean?

Perhaps you gain the illusion of strength of character.

Wouldn't the illusion be believing in morality from a God that may not exist? If God goes away then your morality crumbles, while an atheist goes on his merry way. But as long as you do what is right and live a moral life, does it really matter what you use to justify your morality?

Neo · 07-06-2006, 12:22 AM

Quote:

I mean, people can do and think whatever the hell they want. But to have such a bleak outlook on the world, thinking that nothing exists after death and that we're all just part of some large coincedence and that our faith is nothing more than a product of fear for our mortality; as logically as that all may sound, what's the point in thinking that way?

What I'm saying is that there is a misconception that people who don't believe in God have a bleak outlook on life. While that is true for some, it isn't true for a great many others. Just look at www.randi.org. You have a lot of skeptics there who lead very happy lives. They believe in advancing the human race and reaching new frontiers. They don't consider their own death to be of much consequence. Afterall if you're dead then you're not around to care that you're dead. They have a very positive outlook. They're also free from the need to believe in a God in order to lead a happy and moral existence. Because there are people who believe in God and the morality that comes from that, they can't understand how people who don't believe in God can be moral. If they did understand then they wouldn't need God. This is why atheists are so distrusted.

DarkMaster · 07-06-2006, 12:42 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Neo

What I'm saying is that there is a misconception that people who don't believe in God have a bleak outlook on life. While that is true for some, it isn't true for a great many others. Just look at www.randi.org. You have a lot of skeptics there who lead very happy lives. They believe in advancing the human race and reaching new frontiers. They don't consider their own death to be of much consequence. Afterall if you're dead then you're not around to care that you're dead. They have a very positive outlook. They're also free from the need to believe in a God in order to lead a happy and moral existence. Because there are people who believe in God and the morality that comes from that, they can't understand how people who don't believe in God can be moral. If they did understand then they wouldn't need God. This is why atheists are so distrusted.

That's wicked though, I got no problem with that. To be totally comfortable with your mortality and just accept death and live your life, I think that's cool. I'm not saying that if you don't believe in God, you have a bleak outlook on life. I'm just trying to establish my concern for the people who are so belligerent when the topic of God or Heaven/Hell comes up. Like the people who turn their noses up to religious folk, thinking they know everything about life and death, and that anyone who believes in a God is a fool praising some make-believe fantasy character.

I think the group of people I'm trying to single out are referred to as "Emo" or whatever the hell categorical phrase people are churning out these days. Like I used to know kids in school that we're all "there is no God, religion is stupid, dur hur I'm cool", you know what I'm saying, right? I just can't stand that kind of self-righteous attitude, where people create a set of beliefs to make themselves standout from others over some paranoid fear of being common.

But anyway, that's enough philisophical bullcrap for one night, methinks. I usually don't like to get into these discussions.