Heaven & Hell

Bond · 07-05-2006, 10:44 PM

I wasn't ridiculing you at all. I was simply trying to clarify. I think most people view the afterlife as a sort of justice to what one has done on Earth.

Neo · 07-05-2006, 11:13 PM

I think this strongly relates to the concept of good and evil so I'm going to comment on that. I don't believe in good and evil - they are just labels we apply to categorize actions. There are only actions and the consequences of those actions. "There is nothing good or bad but thinking makes it so." Good and evil are simply concepts; There isn't this physical stuff called good and evil floating about in the atmosphere. I also believe in doing what's right because YOU believe it's right, and not because an invisible man who lives in the sky tells you what is right. Most people do what is right because they want to be rewarded with the gift of everlasting life in heaven or they are afraid of being punished and going to hell if they don't do what God says. I'm not saying I think God does or does not exist, I'm simply saying I do what is right based on my own personal integrity and what I believe is important. I don't know what will happen to me when I die I just know what I have to do while I'm here.

That is one thing many Christians do not understand about regarding atheists. They have this misconception that atheists can't have any morality if they don't believe in a God who provides a backdrop for absolute morality. I know many atheists who are very moral people because they have strength of character. They are very emotionally mature in the sense that they don't need that emotional crutch (to use the governor of MN's words) in order to believe in right and wrong.

I can tell you I don't believe in a traditional hell where people go to burn for ever and ever. Think about what that would really mean....You know how painful it is to experience a burn even for a few seconds? Does anyone really deserve an eternity of that feeling? An eternity is a long time. What would be the point, anyway? Isn't the purpose of punishment to teach someone a lesson? What kind of lesson lasts for an eternity? And what can be taught through physical pain? Wouldn't a better punishment (to take the Hitler example) be to be born into a life in which you have to watch your entire family and everyone you love be killed? Isn't the only way to really make someone understand something is by making them experience that specific kind of pain themselves?

DarkMaster · 07-05-2006, 11:28 PM

I have a question for anyone who doesn't believe in some form of God or an afterlife. What do you have to gain?

I mean think about it. Say you took a gamble and just, for the hell of it, decided to believe in God, even though he may not exist. And then you die one day, and guess what? Holy sh*t, God exists. Well good thing you believed right? Cause now you're going to heaven, and eternal bliss, and all that.

But if he doesn't exist? Well then you had nothing to lose anyway, right? Like just before you enter that realm of eternal darkness and nothing, are you going to think to yourself "dammit, I shouldn't have spent all that time believing in God and an afterlife!"?

Bond · 07-05-2006, 11:34 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DarkMaster

I have a question for anyone who doesn't believe in some form of God or an afterlife. What do you have to gain?

I mean think about it. Say you took a gamble and just, for the hell of it, decided to believe in God, even though he may not exist. And then you die one day, and guess what? Holy sh*t, God exists. Well good thing you believed right? Cause now you're going to heaven, and eternal bliss, and all that.

But if he doesn't exist? Well then you had nothing to lose anyway, right? Like just before you enter that realm of eternal darkness and nothing, are you going to think to yourself "dammit, I shouldn't have spent all that time believing in God and an afterlife!"?

I have a funny idea some people would rather not live a lie (if they truly don't believe in God). And you also make it sound as if it's really easy to believe in God. I mean, if you truly don't believe in a higher power, then you shouldn't. It wasn't in your cards.

Neo · 07-05-2006, 11:37 PM

Ah, Pascal's wager. Pascal said that given that we do not know it is better to believe. Though what does God think of gamblers? And what if you bet on the wrong God?

Anyway I refuse to believe in something out of fear.

Quote:

Originally Posted by DarkMaster

I have a question for anyone who doesn't believe in some form of God or an afterlife. What do you have to gain?

Emotional independence, strength of character, more free time on Sunday.

Bond · 07-05-2006, 11:42 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Neo

Emotional independence, strength of character, more free time on Sunday.

Emotional indepenence? What do you mean?

Perhaps you gain the illusion of strength of character.

Neo · 07-06-2006, 12:18 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bond

Emotional indepenence? What do you mean?

Perhaps you gain the illusion of strength of character.

Wouldn't the illusion be believing in morality from a God that may not exist? If God goes away then your morality crumbles, while an atheist goes on his merry way. But as long as you do what is right and live a moral life, does it really matter what you use to justify your morality?

DarkMaster · 07-06-2006, 12:08 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bond

I have a funny idea some people would rather not live a lie (if they truly don't believe in God). And you also make it sound as if it's really easy to believe in God. I mean, if you truly don't believe in a higher power, then you shouldn't. It wasn't in your cards.

I think you're taking what I said the wrong way. I'm not trying to say that anyone who doesn't believe in a God or an afterlife is some kind of heathen, or that their choice to do so is wrong and meaningless.

I mean, people can do and think whatever the hell they want. But to have such a bleak outlook on the world, thinking that nothing exists after death and that we're all just part of some large coincedence and that our faith is nothing more than a product of fear for our mortality; as logically as that all may sound, what's the point in thinking that way?

What I'm trying to say is, you may think you're gaining some kind of emotional independance by not adhering to the common beliefs of fellow homo sapiens, but when it all comes down to it, isn't it better to have some kind of hope that life is more than just what we see, and something greater than us does exist?

Bond · 07-06-2006, 12:12 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DarkMaster

isn't it better to have some kind of hope that life is more than just what we see, and something greater than us does exist?

Not if you truly don't believe in it. Because then you're lying to yourself and that is a far greater crime than not believing in an afterlife.