Just Leave

[Canyarion]

Originally Posted by Professor S

I'm a monster for even suggesting any of this.

Overreaction ftl.

[KillerGremlin]

I don't condemn the people that lived in the city before. It was all lovey dovey. But now that nature has taken its course and the city is destroyed, those people need to get out.

While roots, heritage, family and money all were issues before, the city is gone, families are scattered, and the donation money should be going to a new cause, reconstruction in a better location.

[manasecret]

Originally Posted by KillerGremlin

I don't condemn the people that lived in the city before. It was all lovey dovey. But now that nature has taken its course and the city is destroyed, those people need to get out.

While roots, heritage, family and money all were issues before, the city is gone, families are scattered, and the donation money should be going to a new cause, reconstruction in a better location.

The city isn't gone. And, yeah, relocating the city would be much cheaper than simply upgrading the existing levees. The fact is the levee system DID work for decades. To think we can't build better levees is ridiculous (just ask the Dutch about what modern engineering can do to protect against storm surges).

Professor S, you said the city is doomed. Hardly. Everyone's crowing about the city being gone just isn't true.

The poor parts, 9th ward, 7th ward, east New Orleans proper, the parts that got it worst -- those parts still haven't been rebuilt. A big reason for that is because they're in the (literally) lowest parts of New Orleans, and the local government wouldn't let them rebuild before they re-outlined the flood plains or whatever -- re-outlining where they would allow people to build. I think they finally got that done recently..

But anyway, everywhere else, uptown, Garden District, French Quarter and so on are up and doing relatively fine. I say relatively, because grocery stores aren't open all night anymore. Oh noes. The damage that happened in these places was more like the damage you get from a typical hurricane. If you're telling them to leave as well, should we also relocate everyone living across the Gulf Coast?

Not to mention all of metropolitan New Orleans, the outlying areas -- which doesn't have the same rich history but is where the majority of New Orleanians now live -- wasn't even affected by the levee breaks. Should they be told to leave? If you don't spend money to rebuild the levees, you're essentially telling all of these people who were hardly affected in the same way as New Orleans proper to move, too.

And how would we relocate the port of New Orleans? It's one of the biggest in the U.S. and the world (I think in the U.S. it's only second to NYC), and it's located at the mouth of the Mississippi for a reason. How do you relocate that?

New Orleans isn't gone. I thought all of you thinking it shouldn't be rebuilt were probably just letting out some steam. And I don't think one's a monster to suggest such a thing. But it doesn't make any sense to entirely give up on the city.

Anyway, I think if any city should be relocated, it's San Francisco. At least we have some protection against storm surges. How do we protect a city built on a fault that's just waiting to cause another catastrophic earthquake? /kidding

[Professor S]

Originally Posted by Canyarion

Overreaction ftl.

I wasn't strictly referring to your post. As you can see, a lot of my political/social postings and replies start out specific and then quickly slide down the slippery slope of general commentary.

I was speaking to a group of people with like minds that have certain values that seemed determined by the heart and not the mind, which you may or may not belong to. I won't attempt to pigeon hole you based on your postings on this thread.

Anbd manasecret, I never said the city was gone, I said it was DOOMED, which IT IS.

ITS BLOODY SINKING AT A RATE OF OVER 1 INCH A YEAR. NEW ORLEANS CAN'T MAINTAIN LEVEES BECAUSE ITS SINKING. Read some of the current articles about this, as engineers go into various structural details of how much stretch the sinking puts on the levees and canals. This tragedy will repeat. Its not a matter of IF, but WHEN.

[manasecret]

Originally Posted by Professor S

ITS BLOODY SINKING AT A RATE OF OVER 1 INCH A YEAR. NEW ORLEANS CAN'T MAINTAIN LEVEES BECAUSE ITS SINKING. Read some of the current articles about this, as engineers go into various structural details of how much stretch the sinking puts on the levees and canals. This tragedy will repeat. Its not a matter of IF, but WHEN.

Care to post some links? I'd like to know more about the engineering side. Of course I'm googling it but I figured you had some good articles to read.

Oh, and I know you didn't say it was gone. Like you, I started specifically then I wrote the article for everyone in general.

[Neo]

Forgive me I can't remember the name, but someone found an article in some engineering magazine from some years ago which stated that it was just a matter of time before New Orleans got wiped off the map by a major storm. Of course no one wanted to listen. The location itself is geologically unsound. We can build all the levees we want - we're just holding off the inevitable.

California is screwed too. Over our liftime there is a 1/20 chance of a major earthquake.

[manasecret]

Originally Posted by Neo

Forgive me I can't remember the name, but someone found an article in some engineering magazine from some years ago which stated that it was just a matter of time before New Orleans got wiped off the map by a major storm. Of course no one wanted to listen. The location itself is geologically unsound. We can build all the levees we want - we're just holding off the inevitable.

California is screwed too. Over our liftime there is a 1/20 chance of a major earthquake.

I haven't read the article you're talking about, so of course I could be wrong. But it sounds like an article saying what everyone already knew before Katrina hit, but inexplicably the locals didn't seem to care about. Everyone from New Orleans would tell you, if you asked them about it, that if New Orleans were to get a direct hit from a major hurricane, the city would be gone. Then after telling you they would go back to drinking their hurricane and laugh and say, "So, what bar are we headed to next?"

It was no secret that the levees weren't designed for anything greater than category 3. I have no idea why they were designed that way in the first place.

[KillerGremlin]

Originally Posted by manasecret

It was no secret that the levees weren't designed for anything greater than category 3. I have no idea why they were designed that way in the first place.

Government didn't want to spend more money.

Originally Posted by manasecret

The city isn't gone. And, yeah, relocating the city would be much cheaper than simply upgrading the existing levees. The fact is the levee system DID work for decades. To think we can't build better levees is ridiculous (just ask the Dutch about what modern engineering can do to protect against storm surges).

Hope they don't cheap out again.

[Professor S]

Well there are a lot of schools of thought to these arguments.

FEMA was never designed to act like a Ambulance or Police force. What I mean is that they have always come in afterwards, handed out money and helped plan reconstruction. Now knowing this FEMA didn't drop the ball, necessarily, but they needed to pick it up when they saw that this was beyond the norm for US emergencies. I think FEMA 1) Needs to be on its own, and not under Homeland Security and 2) Have emergency plans of action esigned for every major metropolitan area. Don't let these areas tell you that they are fine and prepared. Thats what New Orleans and the surrounding areas did and now look what its gotten then into.

Now, the last part of FEMA's plan:

Evacuate and level New Orleans, blow the levees and distribute shorefront properties to the remaining relocated residents.

[thatmariolover]

I'm not a fan a Bush, I never have been, but I think we can hardly blame him for everything that went wrong with Katrina. F.E.M.A. wasn't prepared for that disaster; how can you blame somebody when the problem could have been there for years. That said, I'm still not a Bush Fan. People are going to stay no matter how obvious it is that they need to get out. If you moved New Orleans it wouldn't be New Orleans anymore; because its location directly and indirectly influences the City's charm.

There really isn't much debating to be done.

If some incredible feat of engineering can't be performed, then eventually people will have to move, or they will die.

[Neo]

Originally Posted by thatmariolover

I'm not a fan a Bush, I never have been, but I think we can hardly blame him for everything that went wrong with Katrina. F.E.M.A. wasn't prepared for that disaster; how can you blame somebody when the problem could have been there for years.

I blame him for appointing someone to head FEMA who had no business running that kind of organization.