9/11 Conspiracy Nutballs

[Xantar]

There's been a disturbing trend on the internet recently of people who actually believe that 9/11 was faked.

Yes, you heard that right. And these people are serious. And they think they have irrefutable proof. And they will proselytize their beliefs with all the fervor of a Scientologist at a Hollywood convention.

Read this blog post for a basic summary of their beliefs. And try not to get sucked in by the "evidence." I've been following every sickening turn in this story (and for my troubles I got a 9/11 conspiracy theorist on my forum to deal with), and I can guarantee you that every piece of "proof" they come up with may seem convincing at first but is actually very easily refuted by a little common sense and digging.

For example, many nutjobs claim that dozens of cell phone calls were made from the airplanes even though that's impossible to do in an airplane. Problem is the planes were flying way below regulations. That was the whole point. Oh, and 96% of the calls were made using the airplane phones, not cell phones.

Anyway, I just wanted to alert you all to this rather sad segment of society and urge you all to do the best you can to shut them up. Their letters are actually starting to show up in mainstream news sources and that's really very alarming.

[Dyne]

I hate to tread into a political-esque thread, but what's your proof that it happened? CNN? News websites? I mean it's fine and dandy to believe news stations like that, but what's your proof that it isn't like another burning of the Reichstag.

Really, I block out either sides. They're both annoying and preachy. That's my two cents. But have we really come to a level where we can trust every single news source we hear?

[KillerGremlin]

The Mexican channel showed people that jumped hitting the ground. I've never seen people fall from hundreds of feet hitting the ground until 9/11. I doubt I ever will again too.


This Bush administration, has become the butt-end of all jokes, but also has done some pretty crazy sh*t without any real reason. I have adopted a mindset pretty close to Dyne's, mostly in the sense the i try to ignore arguments, but damn, people need to stand up to their government when stuff isn't working out.

If a documentary like this is what is needed to revisit 9/11 and spend a lot more time figuring out exactly what happened on that day, then so be it. I have no problem with that. You don't know what the Government doesn't tell you. Just look at history: things like the Cuban Missle Crisis for example.

[Typhoid]

By clicking this thread it seems I got transported back 3 years.

Anyways, whats the proof for either side? Nothing other than the beliefs you form yourself.


Moon landing Hoax, comes to mind, for me.

If it was faked, so what. If people think it was faked, so what. If people think it's a conspiracy, so what?

I fail to see anything new, or remotely fresh and informative here that hasnt been argued, and rebuted for the past few years.


Some people will believe the media, some people will believe the government, some people will believe what they create in their own minds and some people will believe the ramblings of a man on his porch.

You cant stop people from thinking what they want to. So why get hung up on it?

[Xantar]

Originally Posted by Dyne

I hate to tread into a political-esque thread, but what's your proof that it happened? CNN? News websites? I mean it's fine and dandy to believe news stations like that, but what's your proof that it isn't like another burning of the Reichstag.

Personally, the fact that a sister of one of my friends died in the towers and that several of my relatives were literally on the ground near the towers and watched the planes colliding with them is pretty persuasive. But that's not all there is.

You're committing a fallacy here. The burden is not on anybody to prove that the terrorist attacks did happen. There are too many eyewitnesses and there have been too many investigations by too many people to believe that a minimal standard hasn't been met there.

I don't know what you actually believe (it looks like you choose to believe some kind of middle ground), but if you want to say that the terrorist attacks never happened, then the burden of proof is on you. Just saying, "Well you can't prove they really happened so I'm right" doesn't work.

If you want to suggest that there are flaws in the "official" version of the story, then go right ahead and provide some arguments and proof. I won't argue that the 9/11 Commission's report is perfect. But they have presented their findings and met their burden, so now if you want to dispute their findings, you have to show evidence of your own.

You cant stop people from thinking what they want to. So why get hung up on it?

In this case, it can have a profound effect on our foreign policy with literally thousands of lives in the balance. I'm not saying that fringe conspiracy theories will become mainstream all of a sudden, but if they did it would be a tragedy. If we are supposed to be devoted to truth and liberty, we owe it to ourselves to discover the facts.

I'm a Buddhist, so I'm no stranger to the ideas of relative reality. But there is a proper time and place for even that kind of thinking, and it's not here.

[KillerGremlin]

Just based on the way the Bush administration has handled events over the past few years, I'm skeptical that they are smart enough to pull a conspiracy of this caliber over the American people. AKA, the fact that this is the Bush administration behind the most inane idea ever just makes it all the less likely to be true.

[Jonbo298]

I've been uncertain about a few things of 9/11. I don't go around shouting it was all fake but there are a few events of that day that makes me wonder. and wonder very well if some of the end results came from other areas non-terrorist.

But I don't dwell on it because the government will never fully release everything that happened internally on 9/11

[Professor S]

Originally Posted by KillerGremlin

Just based on the way the Bush administration has handled events over the past few years, I'm skeptical that they are smart enough to pull a conspiracy of this caliber over the American people. AKA, the fact that this is the Bush administration behind the most inane idea ever just makes it all the less likely to be true.

Believe it or not, its Bush's earnest inablity to act quickly and without clumsiness in the face of emergency that convinces me that all of the conspiracy theories are hogwash.

1) If Bush planned 9/11, why did he look utterly fummoxed for so long after hearing about the attack and why did he continue to read the children's story that was made famous in F911? Wouldn't you think that he would have immediately jumped to action and known exactly what to do?

2) Why did he orchestrate this? Oil? It would have been much simpler and cost effective to support the Hussein regime, ot at least continue to tolerate it, in exchange for cheap oil and kickbacks. As we have seen, a war to overthrow a nation "for oil" only serves to gain the opposite effect. Oil is more expensive. We are spending billions in a police action with the hope that Iraq will get its act together and not implode once we leave. Sweetheart deals with Hussein would have achieved the goal of cheap oil with none of the added cost or American bloodshed.

3) With Osama Bin Laden and Al Quaeda taking credit for the attacks, along with footage of them waiting to hear news of them, they would have had to be in cahoots with the Bush administration to orgabize 9/11.

4) This also means that since Al Quaeda has been attacking the US for neary 2 decades under several administrations of both poltical parties, the United States is run by a nefarious shadow government.

5) Only Chuck Norris can save us now. Yes, Chuck Norris returns!

[Xantar]

Warning: The leaps of logic I'm about to post may cause brain damage

Originally Posted by Professor S

Believe it or not, its Bush's earnest inablity to act quickly and without clumsiness in the face of emergency that convinces me that all of the conspiracy theories are hogwash.

1) If Bush planned 9/11, why did he look utterly fummoxed for so long after hearing about the attack and why did he continue to read the children's story that was made famous in F911? Wouldn't you think that he would have immediately jumped to action and known exactly what to do?

Keep in mind that I don't believe a word of this, but...

There are several different camps of conspiracy theorists, and it's kind of funny because they all claim to have the truth and dismiss the others as ignorant. It's kind of like religious denominations.

Anyway, not all the 9/11 conspiracy theorists think that the government ordered the terrorist attacks. Some of them think the Israelis did it and blamed the Arabs. Others think it was all faked and staged by Hollywood. And of course, maybe the Bush Administration actually staged it all and safely landed all the airplanes in a top secret location.

And of course, if Bush looked flummoxed upon hearing about 9/11 (note: I actually think that scene is misinterpreted thanks to Michael Moore's trickery, but that's neither here nor there), he could be just putting on an act. See how logical it all is? But wait, it will get worse.

2) Why did he orchestrate this? Oil? It would have been much simpler and cost effective to support the Hussein regime, ot at least continue to tolerate it, in exchange for cheap oil and kickbacks. As we have seen, a war to overthrow a nation "for oil" only serves to gain the opposite effect. Oil is more expensive. We are spending billions in a police action with the hope that Iraq will get its act together and not implode once we leave. Sweetheart deals with Hussein would have achieved the goal of cheap oil with none of the added cost or American bloodshed.

To give us an excuse to invade Iraq and/or Afghanistan or to get more money funneled into the military/industrial complex. Of course, this is assuming the Bush administration was behind this (see above).

3) With Osama Bin Laden and Al Quaeda taking credit for the attacks, along with footage of them waiting to hear news of them, they would have had to be in cahoots with the Bush administration to orgabize 9/11.

Conspiracy theorists claim to have incontrovertible proof that all the Osama tapes are fakes. They base this on certain photographs in which his face appears lighter than his hand in skin color and so on.

4) This also means that since Al Quaeda has been attacking the US for neary 2 decades under several administrations of both poltical parties, the United States is run by a nefarious shadow government.

See above. Also see above theories about the Jews being behind it all etc.

5) Only Chuck Norris can save us now. Yes, Chuck Norris returns!

Too bad he got run over by then Gandalf the Grey and Gandalf the White and "Monty Python and the Holy Grail"'s Black Knight and Benito Mussolini and The Blue Meanie and Cowboy Curtis and Jambi the Genie Robocop, the Terminator, Captain Kirk, and Darth Vader Lo Pan, Superman, every single Power Ranger Bill S. Preston and Theodore Logan, Spock, The Rock, Doc Ock, and Hulk Hogan.

I can't believe I just looked up those lyrics.

[KillerGremlin]

Actually, the truth is that I am Bin Laden.

[Teuthida]

If it was faked they could have made a better connection of who did it. Going after Iraq when it was actually Al Quaeda is pretty stupid. Wouldn't it have been easier to blame Iraq directly for the bombing if that was their plan? And then there's Moussaoui. I don't think this administration has the brains to pull off something like this. Unless it was all part of their plan to act like morons! Makes perfect sense! ZOMG!!!11

[Neo]

loosechange911.com is kook central if you're interested in conspiracy theories. A more reasonable discussion can be found at www.randi.org

[Professor S]

The funniest part for me about the ever evolving conspiracy theories is that viewpoints change drastically, sometimes doing complete 180s, so that the theorist can continue their dialogue (or more accurately, monologue).

Examples:

For years Bush has been viewed as either a man of average intelligence or a complete idiot by the left. Conspiracy theorists believe he is the modern day Moriarty, the most deviously intelligent man in history who can't pronounce "nuclear".

The far left has been screaming "blood for oil" during the entire gulf war endeavor, meanwhile prices have oil skyrocketed and the US debt skyrockets with it. Confronted with the obvious, the theorists have changed their tune. Now, the Iraq war was intended to CUT OFF oil supplies so that oil companies could gouge the American public. While this ignores the evidence of low profit per barrel margins for oil companies (they are profiting from a huge increase in demand), rediculous taxes that pump up the price and the fact that we had an embargo on Iraq for years and never got oil from them anyway. These are not items that are talked about in the mainstream media so they can depend on public ignorance (more likely their own) to continue the discussion. You'll see this a lot with conspiracy theorists.

Here is the bottom line: Bush is evil in their eyes, and no feat of intelligence or specious logic can keep theorists from creating and manipulating the means to this end.

Bush simply being incompetent or even just of a different political ideal isn't enough. He must be evil.

EDIT: One more thing... conspiracy theorists and the growth of their influence is very disheartening. We can simply ignore them and laugh off their beliefs as preposterous, but the more people they convince, the more people they render powerless.

By accepting "big brother" theories such as "US created 9/11 and the like, the accepting party essentially has given up hope on their ability to control their lives. No matter what they do, they feel that rich, powerful men will subvert their actions. So why bother? Why not just grow out your hair, smoke weed, drop out and give up? After all, what is the point of trying if you re doomed to persecution and failure by parties too powerful to fight? So the prophecy and theory becomes reality, and they are powerless because they have rendered themselves as such.

[Stonecutter]

yadda yadda yadda yadda yadda.

I skimmed the thread, and it seems like everyone's missing the easiest way to dismiss all of the tin foil hat nonsense.

It's the old "how long can two people keep a secret" thing.

How many people would have to be involved in faking 9/11? 100? 1,000? 10,000?

Even if it's only 100, what are the chances that all 100 would be unconscionable enough to keep quite about it for five years?

[KillerGremlin]

What if the 100 people involved were all killed by 1 hitman hired by the head of the whole conspiracy!

You can never be sure with these things....