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Originally Posted by Stonecutter
Give an example of a true socialist state.
You can't, because it's never been tried.
Inevitably greed always gets in the way.
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Thats a perfect example of why socialist/communist societies don't work and will never work. You call it greed... I call it ambition. A trait every human being has. Human beings inherently want to achieve more and better things for themselves. Socialism and Communism remove the humanity of people and reduce them to cogs in a machine (and not to menton have always ended up being masked fascism).
Take away the fact that every socialist/communist country has been born in revolution and the leaders of the revolution always seem to become President/Dictator for life (excellently parodied in "Bananas"). Lets look at the details of a passively originated and "perfect" socialist company.
Widget Inc.
Widget Inc. is 100% owned by the employees in equal shares and each employees are paid exactly the same on a profit sharing basis. Sounds great, right? Except for the fact that you have no leadership.
Now, recognizing a CEO is elected by the owners/empliyees of the company and much of the stress of everyday decision making is put on his shoulders. The everyday workers put in 8 hour days, while he often sleeps on the couch in his office crunching numbers late into the night as his leadership will be held accountable if the company is a failure. Meanwhile, he is still being paid the same as the 8 hour a day workers.
He takes his case to the workers and requests more money for his time and importance to the company. The workers, being true socialists, refuse but offer to allow him to elect Vice Presidents to help with the beurocracy of running the company. The CEO chooses several VPs who are then given different tasks to ease his load. They become a huge success and the company succeeds tremendously under the CEO's leadership... and he's getting pissed.
-He selected the VPs
-He's made the decisions that have been profitable to the company
-He's built the company up from his ideas
And he is making as much money and receiving as many rewards as the janitor.
Now accross the street there is a Capitalist company that is doing pretty good but not as well as the Socialist company. The Widget Inc. CEO sees the other company's CEO driving a Porsche and asks why he is trying so hard to make his company a success when those that are not nearly as important as him, disposable employees, make as much money as he does. The company accross the street apporaches him and offers him 10 times what he makes now, and he leaves to work for what he is worth.
The employees are pissed too. There is no advancement. The janitors, factory workers, middle managers are stuck in ruts. No one advances because there is no point. Everyone makes the same money so why bother trying to get a job that is harder for the same money? Life becomes a drudgery. Work suffers and profits decline. The CEO has left so leadership has deteriorated. What made the company such a success to begin with has imploded, a victim of its very nature.
Meanwhile in the Capitalist company, advancement and ambition abounds. There is consistent turn over, as employees accept higher paying jobs and more responsibilty from other Capitalist companies, so internal promotion is the norm. Their employees are paid less then at Widget Inc. initially, but their lives are progressing and the opportunity to achieve more is real and tangible. Wideget Inc's CEO has come aboard with a new vigor with the promise of reward for hard work and a bustling, ever changing work environment. Their company reaches higher and higher profit margins.
It is not the functionality of the structure of Socialism and Communism that is its inherent flaw. It is that these philosophies require humans to be forever apathetic to their own self-worth for them to succeed. This defies the very nature of man.
And Germinator, you were right. Man I am one evil manipulating bastard!
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