American forces losing control in Iraq

[Neo]

http://www.nytimes.com/2004/10/28/in...59&partner=AOL

RAMADI, Iraq, Oct. 21 - The American military and the interim Iraqi government are quickly losing control of this provincial capital, which is larger and strategically more important than its sister city of Falluja, say local officials, clerics, tribal sheiks and officers with the United States Marines.

"The city is chaotic," said Sheik Ali al-Dulaimi, a leader of the region's largest tribe. "There's no presence of the Allawi government," he added, speaking of Prime Minister Ayad Allawi.

While Ramadi is not exactly a "no go" zone for the marines, like the insurgent stronghold of Falluja 30 miles to the east, officers say it is fast slipping in that direction. In the last six weeks, guerrillas have stepped up the pace of assassinations of Iraqis working with the Americans, and marine officials say they suspect Iraqi security officers have been helping insurgents to attack their troops. Reconstruction efforts have ground to a halt because no local contractors are willing to work.

Most of the military's resources are channeled into controlling a bomb-infested, four-and-a-half-mile stretch of road that runs through downtown and connects two bases. Insurgents pop out of alleyways, mosques and a crowded market and fire at marines at will, then disappear when the Americans give chase.

Ramadi lies at the heart of rebellious Anbar Province and astride the major western supply route to Baghdad. The city, whose 400,000 residents have at best merely tolerated the foreign military presence, is seen as a crucial part of American efforts to plant a secular democracy in Iraq. But the disintegration of authority puts in jeopardy both the Bush administration's plan to stage nationwide elections by Jan. 31 and any sense of legitimacy such elections might have. It also complicates the American military's plans to invade Falluja, because of the close coordination between insurgents in the two cities.

With a powerful mix of propaganda and intimidation, well-financed guerrillas have turned the people of Ramadi against the American occupiers and their allies, Iraqis and marines here say.

"The provincial government is on the verge of collapse," said Second Lt. Ryan Schranel, whose platoon does 24-hour guard duty at the besieged government center opposite the main bazaar. "Just about everybody has resigned or is on the verge of resigning."

The provincial governor, Muhammad Awad, who doubles as the city's mayor, took office after the previous governor resigned in early August following the kidnapping of his three sons, and after a deputy governor was kidnapped and killed. Mr. Awad is juggling two jobs because no one has come forward to be mayor.

Compounding the problems, guerrillas have been streaming in since the marines stepped up airstrikes against the mujahedeen in Falluja, Marine officials say.

"We hit the deck one and a half months ago, and the area has changed for the downhill very quickly," said Staff Sgt. James Keefer, one of six civil affairs officers attached to the Second Battalion, Fifth Marines, which arrived here in early September. "We used to go to civilian areas in one or two Humvees to look at hospitals and other places. Now it's too dangerous, and we need four Humvees for a convoy, and we don't have the resources."

The power vacuum here also muddies plans for an invasion of Falluja, which has about 300,000 people, because Ramadi could well become a haven for retreating guerrillas. Marines here say they have found it impossible to seal off either the highway or the desert smuggling routes between the two cities. Indeed, Marine officials say there is a high level of coordination between insurgent groups in the two cities, with the suspected guerrilla leader in Ramadi, Muhammad Daham, working closely with counterparts in Falluja.

When the marines made their ill-fated push into Falluja last April, they had to battle a ferocious uprising in Ramadi, where 12 marines were killed in a single ambush.

Though members of the former ruling Baath Party are believed to be financing the insurgency here, where loyalty to Saddam Hussein ran high, there is a growing Islamist face to the rebellion, similar to Falluja, local officials and Marine officers say. Calls for resistance emanate from mosque loudspeakers when Marine convoys roll past. In a coordinated raid on seven mosques on Oct. 12, marines said, they found large weapons caches, taped anti-American sermons and DVD's showing beheadings.

Top Marine commanders say they may open an offensive in Ramadi together with one in Falluja. But such an assault would probably have only a limited effect, because insurgents here do not hold well-defined territory, as they do in Falluja. They have instead blended into the population and conduct hit-and-run strikes on Marine patrols and outposts along the main downtown strip.

"It's difficult to describe 'sense of control' in terms of insurgent activity," said Capt. Eric Dougherty, the commander of Company E, which lost four men in the first six weeks here. "The insurgent activity is everywhere. It's at our firm bases here. It's among women and children, those cowards."

Dozens of government employees still come to work every day at the provincial center, a three-story building pockmarked by bullets and shrapnel. Marines sitting watch behind sandbags on the roof get shot at regularly with AK-47's, mortars and rocket-propelled grenades.

"We're one of the only units that's got bases inside the city," said Lt. Col. Randall P. Newman, the battalion commander. "This is not Falluja. We want to keep this place from becoming a Falluja."

In an interview in his office, Governor Awad attributed the anarchy to the ineffectiveness of the Iraqi security forces and the limited presence of the marines, whom he said had wasted time earlier on reconstruction projects.

"The performance of the police and national guard is very weak in all of central Iraq," Mr. Awad said as he sat behind his desk, two Iraqi guards in civilian clothes hovering near him. "The marines are not protecting us. It's true that they've helped us with some projects such as improving the water supply and sewage disposal and rebuilding schools. But people think all that is worthless. They need security."

None of the dozens of marines interviewed in Ramadi disagreed with Mr. Awad's assessment of the Iraqi police and National Guard.

Even worse, they say, the local forces sometimes aid the insurgency. Marines arrested the police chief of Anbar Province in August on charges of corruption, and Lieutenant Schranel said Iraqi National Guardsmen were suspected of helping insurgents blow up a veterans' building that marines were using as an observation post.

Colonel Newman said the only effective Iraqi troops in Ramadi are 80 or so Iraqi Special Forces soldiers from elsewhere in the country. They live at battalion headquarters and are used for specific operations like mosque raids, not day-to-day security.

On a recent afternoon, two Iraqi National Guardsmen at a checkpoint at the government center watched as a group of marines walked up. "Here come the sons of dogs," one guardsman said to an Iraqi reporter.

Next door, in police headquarters, Iraqi officers tossed around conspiracy theories.

"The Americans gave us nothing more than AK-47's so they could stay in Iraq for a long time," Lt. Abdul-Latif Salim said. "The resistance has the right to fight the occupation. It's an obligation for every Muslim. The Allawi government has no power."

Insurgents have tried discrediting the marines and the local government through widespread propaganda. Clerics regularly preach against the occupation, while guerrillas post the names of Iraqi security officers outside mosques. A marine showed a flier seized from a mosque that depicted a woman in a black robe being raped by men in sunglasses, presumably Americans.

In late September, insurgents began blowing up whole buildings downtown, videotaping the demolitions and giving the tapes to Arab television networks to attribute blame to American airstrikes, Marine officers said. The explosions have destroyed an agricultural center, a veterans' building and the Red Crescent headquarters. Their wrecked facades still scar the city.

As in other parts of Iraq, guerrillas are killing locals working with Americans. An interpreter at a base called Combat Outpost, east of downtown, was found beheaded recently. Insurgents even killed the man who cleaned the portable toilets at the base.

Sergeant Keefer said the marines tried calling a list of 100 potential local contractors when they first arrived. Many of the phone numbers had been disconnected, and people who did answer said the contractors had left town.

Reconstruction "is pretty much at a standstill right now," said Capt. Sean Kuehl, an intelligence officer. "An insurgency cannot be defeated solely by an occupying power. We need the support of the local population."

Well, isn't that nice. It doesn't sound to me like "we're making good progress" as Bush would have us believe.

[Professor S]

This was expected to happen, and the Bush administration has said as much. Violence was expected to increase before the Us election and then even more before the Iraq election. The NY Times attempting to use these already predicted events as an "october surprise" doesn't really surprise me at all.

[Canyarion]

Hah, I read an article about some Dutch squad making sure the police is doing its job right.
The Iraqis said they liked the Dutch, but not the Americans and the Italians, because they pissed in their drinking water.

Never piss in any drinking water.

[Bond]

If you would look at history you would realize this same scenario and series of events has happened before. It's difficult to transform a country from a dictatorship to a democracy. With time and determination it will work out in the end.

[Ace195]

Originally Posted by Canyarion

Hah, I read an article about some Dutch squad making sure the police is doing its job right.
The Iraqis said they liked the Dutch, but not the Americans and the Italians, because they pissed in their drinking water.

Never piss in any drinking water.

*quickly stops peeing*


But why ?

*Laughs Manically*

[Blackmane]

Yep, rebel uprising in Iraq...

*pisses in water*

Just kidding, but we all knew that it was going to get intense because these insurgents don't want Bush to stay in office. Maybe there's a reason to that, like maybe...they think Kerry is too weak and they hope that enough hardships in Iraq will get Kerry elected and us to immiedietely retreat...

Just maybe...

[DeathsHand]

Originally Posted by Blackmane

Just kidding, but we all knew that it was going to get intense because these insurgents don't want Bush to stay in office. Maybe there's a reason to that, like maybe...they think Kerry is too weak and they hope that enough hardships in Iraq will get Kerry elected and us to immiedietely retreat...

Or maybe no, they don't want the guy who started attacking them to be re-elected, but hey, maybe not being in Iraq happens to be better for our country as well (not that the terrorists care about that part of the situation)...

Or maybe

But no, the issue is of course very simple... Black and white, as are most political issues, especially ones as sensitive as those brought up during a time of war...

Obviously if a war on terror is bad for the terrorists, it must be good for america!

Kerry not 100% agree with war? Kerry bad! Kerry let terrorists win!

I for one know that if terrorists wanted me personally to become president, I'd kill myself so it couldn't possibly happen...

[gekko]

Stop looking to the damn news media to see how well this war is being fought. For one, it's the NY Times, who tried to make it seem like we were losing the war and all going to get slughtered entering Baghdad. But more importantly, they don't have any clue what's going on.

The news gets to a big city and makes it seem like that's the only place getting hit, which is why Fallujah made the news, but Ramadi has generally been worse than Fallujah, it just never made the news.

Ramadi is not getting any worse. The only reason we don't have control is that city is because of the gay-ass ROEs that are being put on us, by none other than politicians and anti-war activists. Trust me, ther's enough firepower in Ramadi to level the entire city in minutes, but we're not allowed to use it.

We're only losing control because we're not allowed to fight.

[Typhoid]

Originally Posted by gekko

Stop looking to the damn news media to see how well this war is being fought.

Unless I misread....but i dont recall seeing any suggestions.

Please indicate any other source other than the news media, where people can learn whats happening in Iraq.

The sports media? The weather department?

[BreakABone]

Originally Posted by Typhoid

Unless I misread....but i dont recall seeing any suggestions.

Please indicate any other source other than the news media, where people can learn whats happening in Iraq.

The sports media? The weather department?

Martha Stewart
There ain't nothing that woman don't know...

[Typhoid]

Originally Posted by BreakABone

Martha Stewart
There ain't nothing that woman don't know...

She dont know how to not stay out of jail for commiting insider trading.

[Professor S]

Originally Posted by DeathsHand

Or maybe no, they don't want the guy who started attacking them to be re-elected, but hey, maybe not being in Iraq happens to be better for our country as well (not that the terrorists care about that part of the situation)...

Isolationist philosophies have never been good for our country or the world for that matter, going all the way back to WW2.

War is never fun. War is never something that you go into joyfully. And the new wars are not truly 100% winable (in a conventional sense) because they are cultural more than they are governmental.

What we are doing in Iraq is finishing the job that Richard the Lionheart should have finshed hundreds of years ago. This is a crusade, but not a religious one and not a cultural one. It is a crusade to pull the Middle East out of Medeival times.

Why do we have a right to do that? Because he culture that their leaders have created has been to create hatred towards the West and inspire fanaticism to take attention away from themselves. They claim cultural imperialism (which is self-inflicted by their own people I might add) and call us the great Satan while their leaders absorb 99% of the wealth, build mansions and live like gods walking the earth while their people live in third world conditions.

Yet they've convinced their people that we are at fault because we are "infidels".

Now its come back to bite their leaders in the ass. This hatred that they've cultivated has gone too far by attacking us on our own soil and now their leaders have to deal with us and we aren't negotiating. We are attempting to create democracy in the Middle East and that scares their leaders more than any number of smart bombs or machine guns. Why? Because it means an end to their life of totalitarianism and Allah ordained priveledge. Why do you think even Saudi Arabia was very much against us going into Iraq, even when Iraq was their biggest threat and was right next door?

Now I understand that many people aren't going to believe that this is a reason. They'll go as far as to say its all about the oil, which is rediculous for several reasons, the most obvious being the price of oil right now and the fact that we're the only advanced country in the world that does not purchase oil from Iran. But I can see how people would want to be against war, any type of war, especially when the goals are so new and untested. This isn't a guarantee and more than a handful of people died during it so I can see how people can become nervous.

The fact is this has to be done. Flat out. The future of the world depends on it. In the next 10-15 years Western Europe will be over 50% muslim/islamic and if democracy is not imbued into their culture it will begin tearing apart ours. Its already started in Canada. In a province ( I think it was a province) in Canada there was a law put to vote that would allow muslims to be tried in a separate court according to the laws set by the Koran. This cannot happen and would only be the first of many changes if it were ever to go through.

You may say that this is a pointless war with nothing but tragic, uneeded dead... I say this war could very well prevent a cultural world war in the next 50 years.

[Crono]

Originally Posted by The Strangler

Isolationist philosophies have never been good for our country or the world for that matter, going all the way back to WW2.

War is never fun. War is never something that you go into joyfully. And the new wars are not truly 100% winable (in a conventional sense) because they are cultural more than they are governmental.

What we are doing in Iraq is finishing the job that Richard the Lionheart should have finshed hundreds of years ago. This is a crusade, but not a religious one and not a cultural one. It is a crusade to pull the Middle East out of Medeival times.

Why do we have a right to do that? Because he culture that their leaders have created has been to create hatred towards the West and inspire fanaticism to take attention away from themselves. They claim cultural imperialism (which is self-inflicted by their own people I might add) and call us the great Satan while their leaders absorb 99% of the wealth, build mansions and live like gods walking the earth while their people live in third world conditions.

Yet they've convinced their people that we are at fault because we are "infidels".

Now its come back to bite their leaders in the ass. This hatred that they've cultivated has gone too far by attacking us on our own soil and now their leaders have to deal with us and we aren't negotiating. We are attempting to create democracy in the Middle East and that scares their leaders more than any number of smart bombs or machine guns. Why? Because it means an end to their life of totalitarianism and Allah ordained priveledge. Why do you think even Saudi Arabia was very much against us going into Iraq, even when Iraq was their biggest threat and was right next door?

Now I understand that many people aren't going to believe that this is a reason. They'll go as far as to say its all about the oil, which is rediculous for several reasons, the most obvious being the price of oil right now and the fact that we're the only advanced country in the world that does not purchase oil from Iran. But I can see how people would want to be against war, any type of war, especially when the goals are so new and untested. This isn't a guarantee and more than a handful of people died during it so I can see how people can become nervous.

The fact is this has to be done. Flat out. The future of the world depends on it. In the next 10-15 years Western Europe will be over 50% muslim/islamic and if democracy is not imbued into their culture it will begin tearing apart ours. Its already started in Canada. In a province ( I think it was a province) in Canada there was a law put to vote that would allow muslims to be tried in a separate court according to the laws set by the Koran. This cannot happen and would only be the first of many changes if it were ever to go through.

You may say that this is a pointless war with nothing but tragic, uneeded dead... I say this war could very well prevent a cultural world war in the next 50 years.

Very well said once again Strangler. I shall give you +rep.

[Neo]

Originally Posted by The Strangler

The fact is this has to be done. Flat out. The future of the world depends on it. In the next 10-15 years Western Europe will be over 50% muslim/islamic and if democracy is not imbued into their culture it will begin tearing apart ours. Its already started in Canada.

You may say that this is a pointless war with nothing but tragic, uneeded dead... I say this war could very well prevent a cultural world war in the next 50 years.

You make a good point but what I mainly question is the method by which we are going about it. Bush's policies have probably made us less safe from the terrorists we are trying to defeat. I'm not exactly sure what it means to "defeat" terrorism but that's another story. The attack on Iraq has not made us more safe but instead has propagated even more hate for the US. Al Qaeda should have no trouble recruiting new members and obtaining cash as the muslims are constantly fed such images as prisoner abuse and mangled civilians.

We of course had no choice but to go after the terrorists after 9/11 but the war on Iraq is a total distraction from this. Bush said that we would make no distinction between the terrorists and the countries that harbour them. Well that's all good and well but the 9/11 commission showed there were no direct links between Saddam and Al Qaeda. Even if you believe they did have some communications that's a far cry from claiming they "harbour" terrorists.

In my opinion we went after Saddam WAY too early and in doing so have over-extended ourselves and become less effective on both fronts. We should have hit the terrorists hard in Afghanistan instead of diverting resources to Iraq on questionable intelligence. Now we find ourselves in a huge mess. We don't have enough troops to properly secure both Iraq and Afghanistan and we are unable to keep the people safe, something they are undoubtedly aware of.

Though what's done is done and arguing about what should have happened won't change that. We have no choice but to finish what Bush started. I just don't trust that he's the one to do it.

[Blackmane]

the 9/11 commission showed there were no direct links between Saddam and Al Qaeda

It's fairly obvious you didn't actually read the 9/11 commision report and only listened to news media's soundbites that were useful to them. It is true that they found no direct link between Saddam and 9/11, but they also said that their were definite links between Saddam and Al Qaeda, including possibly giving money to them. They have also harboured these men in the past. The evening news didn't tell the whole story.

I feel that a point is being missed here. See, most people in here listen to the news saying that the war in Iraq is going horrible, but that is just not true. I think gekko is right on about this. It is all the dumb agenda minded politicians that are undermining efforts to win this war and then the media turns it around into stories about incompetance on Bush. The story of the supposed 380 tons of missing explosives at Al Qaqaa under the US watch, which turned out to be only 3 tons that went missing before we got there.

Why doesn't the media show all the good things happening in the war? Do they want to turn everyone against the effort that is underway in the Middle East? Do they want the respect for the troops fighting and dying over there to dissapear? Why not, instead of talking about 3 tons of explosives that went missing, talk about the 400,000 tons of weapons, ordinance, munitions and explosives that have been captured/destroyed? Why not talk about the thousands of other ammo dumps that have been taken care of instead of one that could possibly have been looted?

I can't understand how a group can try to undermine the war effort so badly. These terrorists over in the Middle East hate us not because we attacked them. They hate us because we are us. We represent everything they don't. I doubt that are actions are changing that fact, although I don't have any proof. They attacked us on 9/11 without us having invaded, they have attacked embassies, cruisers, and such without us having invaded, so why should we believe that not going after them would have satisfied them?