GameTavern - Fahrenheit 9/11

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Well, doesn't anyone want to talk about this movie by a fat rich white man?

Re: Fahrenheit 9/11

You've opened the gates of hell

*waits for Strangler to come in* :sneaky:

Re: Fahrenheit 9/11

haha, I can already feel the tension in this thread. I've seen the commercials for it. Very controversial (that is the point right)

Re: Fahrenheit 9/11

I haven't seen it, but in Friday's USA Today, they already had a bunch of facts contradicting some of what Mr. Moore says and showing it's peccant ways.

..And I did a quick search, here's the article.

Quote:

'9/11' OMITS A FEW FINER POINTS

Fahrenheit 9/11 is not intended to be objective; director Michael Moore concedes that point. But he also has said he is "presenting the truth." A look at some of the movie's controversial points:

President Bush's reaction to news of the Sept. 11 attacks

Moore uses video of the president as Bush learned that a second jet had hit the World Trade Center the morning of Sept. 11, 2001. The president was in a classroom in Sarasota, Fla., listening to second-graders read.

Bush sat in the classroom for seven minutes after learning of the news from his chief of staff, Andrew Card. Moore superimposes a timer on the screen to document the passage of time, then asks what was going through the president's mind. Was he, Moore wonders, regretting spending 42% of his first eight months in office on "vacation?"

Moore bases his quip on an Aug. 6, 2001, story in the Washington Post that said by the end of that month Bush would have spent 42% of his first seven months in office "at vacation spots or en route." The calculation included weekends spent at the presidential retreat in Camp David, Md., and a month-long "working vacation" at the president's ranch in Crawford, Texas. Moore doesn't say that the "vacation" days included weekends or that Bush worked part of most of those days. He met, for example, with British Prime Minister Tony Blair.

The other message Moore sends is that Bush was frozen, unable to do anything until he was told what to do by his aides. The independent 9/11 commission reported that Bush told its members he felt it was important to remain calm when not much was known about the attacks. Andrew Card told ABC's Good Morning America this week that Bush showed "a moment of shock, and he did stare off maybe for just a second."

The decision to let some Saudis leave the USA shortly after 9/11 and alleged connections among the Bush family, Saudi royalty and Osama bin Laden's family

Moore questions why the Bush administration allowed 142 Saudis, including members of bin Laden's family, to fly out of the USA Sept. 14 through Sept. 24, 2001. He suggests that business ties between oil-rich Saudi Arabia and the Bush family might have resulted in special treatment for some Saudi citizens — even though 15 of the 19 terrorists who hijacked planes on 9/11 were Saudis.

The implication: Saudis who might have had information about the attacks — or even been involved — slipped through the president's fingers.

But the movie does not point out that the FBI interviewed about 30 of the Saudis before they left the USA and that investigators say no one on board the planes has turned out to be of interest. The independent 9/11 commission has reported that "each of the flights we have studied was investigated by the FBI and dealt with in a professional manner prior to its departure."

An alleged connection between Bush and the Taliban that ruled Afghanistan

In December 1997, a delegation of top Taliban officials visited the USA at the invitation of officials from Unocal, a California-based oil and gas company with extensive business dealings in Texas. At the time, Unocal was pursuing a deal to construct a gas pipeline through Afghanistan. Moore notes that the delegation visited Texas while Bush was governor. He doesn't say the delegation met with Bush, but that is implied.

In fact, Bush did not meet with the Taliban representatives. What Moore also doesn't say is that Clinton administration officials at the State Department did sit down with the Taliban officials and that their visit was made with the Clinton administration's permission.

By Mark Memmott, USA TODAY

http://www.usatoday.com/life/movies/...it-cover_x.htm (it's not the main article, by the way)

I do want to see Fahrenheit 9/11. But mostly for entertainment. :p

Re: Fahrenheit 9/11

I saw it yesterday. Michael Moore doesn't do as much talking. He lets the events speak for themselves.

You Michael Moore haters, see the movie before you bash it.

Re: Fahrenheit 9/11

hehehe. it was actually quite an amusing movie/documentary.

They're all real video in it. but he just pieces them together in a way to make a big story line. some is true. some is made to sound different then it is. some is exagerations.

but i only went cuz some friends decided to go while we were out. It was good for entertainment

:)

Re: Fahrenheit 9/11

I really want to go see this movie, hopefully I can make it some time this week.

Re: Fahrenheit 9/11

I will admit, after having read everything that I could find that was Anti-Bowling for Columbine, that Moore did do some unfair things to help make his point.

I saw F 9/11 on Friday and have looked into every single story that attempts to debunk Moore's side of the facts and I have found NOTHING wrong. The vast majority of the attacks take the form of the things that Manasecret posted. Stuff like this:

Quote:

But the movie does not point out that the FBI interviewed about 30 of the Saudis before they left the USA and that investigators say no one on board the planes has turned out to be of interest. The independent 9/11 commission has reported that "each of the flights we have studied was investigated by the FBI and dealt with in a professional manner prior to its departure."

I mean, that's ridiculous. So the FBI interviewed less than 25% of the Saudis that left and then we're supposed to feel better because it turns out after the fact that they really weren't a threat. Well golly gee, I'm so glad we got that information after they left the country.

Quote:

In December 1997, a delegation of top Taliban officials visited the USA at the invitation of officials from Unocal, a California-based oil and gas company with extensive business dealings in Texas. At the time, Unocal was pursuing a deal to construct a gas pipeline through Afghanistan. Moore notes that the delegation visited Texas while Bush was governor. He doesn't say the delegation met with Bush, but that is implied.

In fact, Bush did not meet with the Taliban representatives. What Moore also doesn't say is that Clinton administration officials at the State Department did sit down with the Taliban officials and that their visit was made with the Clinton administration's permission.

Paragraph 1: Saying that it was implied is implying that it was implied. How this can be construed as anything but right-wing nitpicking is beyond me. I didn't feel it was implied. Texas is an oil rich state, I'm sure some bull**** went down while they were there, if not with bushes bosom buddies than with another scummy oil corporation.

Paragraph 2: Anyone who has followed Michael Moore's career knows he's no fan of the Democratic Party, but the feeling of the vast majority of the liberals in this country is that right now anything is better than the Republican Party. For a conservative to point this out is basically conceding that very fact.

If you want to say that this movie is more a piece of propaganda than a documentary I won't argue with (to a point, all of the parts where Moore actually went and did his own interviews cannot be considered anything but documentary) but I have yet to see ANYTHING that exposes a major flaw (or even a minor flaw) in the FACTS of this movie. That wasn't the case with BfC, and Moore has learned his lesson. He hired an entire team of fact checkers and a team of lawyers to go after anyone who attempts to discredit the movie though false accusations.

If you follow the news carefully, as I do, you won't learn very much from F 9/11, but I, though a modest person, can guarantee that the vast majority of the American public does not follow the news as closely as I do and they are going to learn a lot from this movie.

4 Stars, go see it, $10 bet on the table that it gets a Best Picture nomination.

Re: Fahrenheit 9/11

Can't get best picture. But I wonder if they'll give him best documentary again.

*Strokes chin*

If Bush is still in office he probably won't even be nominated.

Re: Fahrenheit 9/11

Sure it can get best picture.

It won't, but I bet it gets a nomination.

Re: Fahrenheit 9/11

I was supposed to be watching it right this very second with Zaglar Ninja,....stupid Hockey ruins my plans...curse you.

I saw some "highlights" of it on channels, and it is apparent he does less talking and lets the events speak for themselves.

And i remember somebody ( i honestly forget who) was bashing Moore for trying to level with the "common man" and people keep making references to the fact he is rich. So what, he was common before he decided to sell everything he owned to make his first contraversial movie, money doesnt make a person change, trust me.

Re: Fahrenheit 9/11

I have to travel to Vancouver if I want to watch the film(which I do).

That's about a 4 hours drive. I'd probably see it at the collossus in Langley.

I'm annoyed that none of the Landmark Cinema or Famous Players theatres are playing the film here. I don't get it?

Maybe because I'm in a conservative riding? :)

j/k

Anyway, thanks for the post stonecutter.(+ rep for the digging) I've already heard a bunch of people trying to discredit it. I happened to be watching global news (typhoid, dyne dylflon etc will know) and they completely discredited the movie. It was kind of weird. Anyway...I don't know if I'll travel the 4 miles to Vancouver from Kelowna. Normally I would in the summer but I have a full time job and such. I'll try for a kazaa or suprnova.

Re: Fahrenheit 9/11

I saw it last night. Great movie. It really has convinced to vote for Kerry instead of Nader...We need to give someone else a shot at this presidency thing...

Anyway, I liked how Moore mostly kept himself out of the film and let the footage speak for itself. This was way more effective than some of his personal probing in Bowling For Columbine. Good movie, defintely reccomended.

Re: Fahrenheit 9/11

I'm probably going to see it tonight or tomorrow. Looks good.

Re: Fahrenheit 9/11

I hate michael moore and his loud ass mouth. i liked roger and me, but didn't like bowling for columbine too much. i know i'm going to hate this one. i'll see his movie tonight, but hate the fact he'll make money off it.

i made a picture in honor of him.

Re: Fahrenheit 9/11

Why are you going to hate it?

He does little to no talking in comparison to BfC. And he lets the facts speak for themselves, are you that in love with the Bush administration that you can't get over the fact that Moore's points are right?

Look at almost everyone whos posted here whos seen it, they think the validity of his points are good, yet you, still not seeing through your weird compelling hatred for Moore, probably wont believe a word of it, and pass it off as heresy.

What exactly do you have wrong with Moore? What did he do that pissed you off so much? Did he kill your family, or eat a baby or something? Or did he just point out the follies of President Bush?

Re: Fahrenheit 9/11

at least i'm going to watch it, there are some who say "it's all lies, i'm not going to even see it"

but all i'm saying is moore doesn't have as much credit in my book because he lied so much in his other crockumentaries.

Re: Fahrenheit 9/11

Awesome movie, and the events do speak for themselves. Most of the objections are little nit-picky things like omitting the congressman who did have a couple nephews in the war. I haven't seen anything disputing the major points of the film. I'm still pissed off about the whole Florida scandal. Republican cronies purged several thousand black voters who vote 90% democratic because they "may" have committed a felony. Of course the majority of them never had. I hate that Katerine Harris bitch with a passion.

Re: Fahrenheit 9/11

I'm not going to get into this. I've pointed out what a manipulator he is over and over again on how he is simply playing on your sympathies to feed his ego and his wallet with your masturbatory adulation and hard earned money. Even the mainstream media is tearing him apart for this one, much like George Stephanpolous and Matt Lauer both did.

Those that care to listen and do the research and see him for what he is, will listen, and those that want their ideals reinforced with misinformation and one sided "documentaries" will continue to love him. By the way, there is a book coming out soon written by David T Hardy, a reknowned Moore skeptic and debunker who I've cited more than once, and here is a link to where you can go to get it once it comes out later this month:

http://www.moorelies.com/book/

I will say this one thing: For those of you that claim that Michael Moore lets the events talk for themselves, so did Leni Reifenstahl. The validity of the comments made depends on what events you care to let speak and how they are presented.

Re: Fahrenheit 9/11

he wants the attention from the media like he's getting with them taring him apart.
meanwhile the movie is getting WONDERFUL reviews( http://www.rottentomatoes.com/m/Fahrenheit911-1133649/ ) and is #1 at the boxoffice. :p

true or false, it is entertaining to watch.

Re: Fahrenheit 9/11

thats right he is a manipulator, but at least he uses his manipulation powers for good, not for evil. He exposes the evils of corporate crime through manipulation, well no one really pays attention otherwise.

Re: Fahrenheit 9/11

Well ****.

The film i got off of suprnova isn't working for me. I have no idea what codec I need and they didn't include a readme that tells me. GRRRRRRR

If someone else has it here than I'd appreciate the help. There's no way I could make it into Vancouver until the end of summer.

Re: Fahrenheit 9/11

Quote:

Originally Posted by Zaglar Ninja

So if he exposes the "evils" in the world by lying about them to make them look evil, how do you know if they are really evil or just victims of a man that you admit is a master manipulator out for his own agenda and personal wealth?

Re: Fahrenheit 9/11

Quote:

Originally Posted by bouncer

no sympathy, sorry.

:p

Re: Fahrenheit 9/11

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Strangler

since when does manipulation = lying? Politicians like to hide their wrong doings, sometimes you need to manipulate to reveal those faults, obviously you can't trust a manipulator 100% of the time, so check out his claims, see if he really did just take things out of context.

Re: Fahrenheit 9/11

Quote:

Originally Posted by Zaglar Ninja

I did and have posted those finding all over this site. He lies. Constantly. No one cares because his lies and manipulated media reinforce people's predisposed beliefs and as long as his movies continue to do so no one is going to care whether or not his claims are actually accurate.

Now look whats happened. I've been drug back into another Michael Moore debate where we all know that nothing is going to get accomplished. Later.

Re: Fahrenheit 9/11

Strangler, i think you should run for president. Seriously. The country would benefit from your one sided in your face attitude. Maybe when you become the president you can just sit there and do nothing, because you obviously see no fault in anything Bush is doing.

You say Moore lies, and have cited sites that "debunk" Moores antics, but he did have researchers for F 9/11. Researchers that research things.

And couldnt you say that a person that debunks things also manipulates people? I mean, they are manipulating you to believe the "manipulator" in question is wrong. The fact is he is right on some things, and he is wrong on some things. So what, all in all he is a guy trying to make a living. He makes entertaing documentaries, and it makes him money.

Hey, maybe when you become the president, you can exile him to Cuba or Canada or something. :p

Re: Fahrenheit 9/11

Ok, I will respond to this gibberish as it directly paints me as something I am not.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Typhoid

Typhoid, exactly when have I EVER said that I find no fault in anything Bush does? In fact, I remember specifically posting on more than one occasion my myriad complaints of the Bush administration, but I suppose you decided to use your selective memory, as usual.

Quote:

You say Moore lies, and have cited sites that "debunk" Moores antics, but he did have researchers for F 9/11. Researchers that research things.

The same researchers that said Bush let the Saudi's leave without being screened? The fact is that all the Saudi's that were allowed to leave were screened and over 30 of them were interviewed. This is according to the 9/11 commision. I'm not saying that more shouldn't have been done, because more should have, but the truth is never damning enough for Moore.

The same reseachers that blamed Bush for letting the Saudi Royal family leave by plane while no flights were allowed in the air? The fact is commercial air traffic was cleared when the royals left and it was in fact Richard Clarke who personnally cleared them to leave. This once again according to the 9/11 commission and personally ratified by Richard Clarke himself during the hearings.

By the way, when George Stephanopolous confronted him on these lies, Moore's excuse was that they were "preliminary findings" from the 9/11 commission. Well considering that the commission hasn't completed the document yet and all there is are preliminary findings, thats a pretty useless excuse, even if he can use it as a legal defense for his outrageous claims.

Quote:

And couldnt you say that a person that debunks things also manipulates people? I mean, they are manipulating you to believe the "manipulator" in question is wrong.

Of course that could be true, but when David Hardy actually interviews the people in Columbine, who by the way all HATE Michael Moore and the families of the victims actually sued him for slander and libel, and presents actual evidence that Moore himself has recognized and dismissed (read the sites and links that I posted earlier), as well as the fact that the NEWS sources such as ABC, CNN, The Wallstreet Journal, etc. are all of impecable quality, I think we can all use our brains to see who is the true manipulator here.

Quote:

The fact is he is right on some things, and he is wrong on some things. So what, all in all he is a guy trying to make a living. He makes entertaing documentaries, and it makes him money.

Way to completely miss my point. I actually agree with Michael Moore on his stance on gun control that he brought up in Bowling for Columbine, but I DESPISE his tactics and "by any means necessary" ethic of yellow journalism. He paints himself as a truth teller who actually has directions on his website of how to use his films IN PUBLIC SCHOOLS but whenever anyone confronts him on the lies he exhorts, he claims he is nothing but a comedian. He can't play both sides and pick which one he wants whenever someone calls him on his bull****, especially when this bull**** might make into schools that my kids might attend. My country is polarized to the right and left too much already as it is, I don't need Michael Moore lying his ass off to make things even worse.

Meanwhile, he rakes in all the cash in the world by exploiting those with liberal sympathies, when he has done nothing but make himself into the very corporate fat cat that he claims to hate. Wake up and smell the hypocrisy.

Quote:

Hey, maybe when you become the president, you can exile him to Cuba or Canada or something. :p

I wouldn't exile him anywhere as he is simply excercising his right to free speech, even if he toes the line of slander and libel ( actually think his "researchers" are lawyers whose job it is to keep him from getting sued). I'm using my right to try and give the other side, which explains what a disgusting social leech he is and how he is using you to line his pockets with gold and laughing all the way to the bank.

Re: Fahrenheit 9/11

do you agree that bush is a moron? Micheal Moore thinks so, and he does a kickass job of showing it, I know he in the past has lied, but in F 9/11 I don't think there are any lies. Most of the movie isn't him talking anyways, like Dylflon says, he lets the facts show themselves.

ugh I dont even understand why you pick on Moore so much, hes just showing what a lying moron bush is. Maybe you should stop worrying about what "lying" film makers are saying and start worrying about what lying presidents are saying.

Re: Fahrenheit 9/11

I have found a very nice article from Slate.com, a liberal website, that calls Fahrenheit 9/11 counterpropaganda. If you don't believe me they're liberal, the writer of the article calls himself liberal, and the article that appears before this one reads: "Bush plays the Nazi card." Here is the article:

Quote:

Michael Moore's Fahrenheit 9/11 is unfair and outrageous. You got a problem with that?

Back in the '80s—the era of Reagan and Bush 41, when milquetoasts Walter Mondale and Michael Dukakis were the ineffectual Democratic candidates and Jimmy Carter was off building houses for poor people, when Anthony Lewis was writing oh-so-temperately in the New York Times, which was then leaning neoconward under the stewardship of Abe Rosenthal, when there was an explosion of dirty Republican tricksters like Lee Atwater and trash-talking right-wingers, from Morton Downey Jr. to the fledgling Rush Limbaugh—I found myself wishing, wishing fervidly, for a blowhard whom the left could call its own. Someone who wouldn't shrink before the right's bellicosity. Someone who would bellow back, mock unashamedly, and maybe even recapture the prankster spirit of counterculture figures like Abbie Hoffman.

Yeah, I know: Be careful what you wish for.

In 20 years of writing about film, no movie has ever tied me up in knots the way Michael Moore's Fahrenheit 9/11 (Lions Gate) has. It delighted me; it disgusted me. I celebrate it; I lament it. I'm sure of only one thing: that I don't trust anyone—pro or con—who doesn't feel a twinge of doubt about his or her responses. What follows might be broadly labeled as "waffling," but I hope, at least, that it is bold and decisive waffling.
Needless to say, Fahrenheit 9/11 never waffles. The liberals' The Passion of the Christ, it ascribes only the most venal motives to the other side. There is no sign in the filmmaker of an openness to other interpretations (or worldviews). This is not quite a documentary—which I define, very loosely, as a work in which the director begins by turning on the camera and allowing the reality to speak for itself, aware of its complexities, contradictions, and multitudes. You are with Moore, or you are a war criminal. The film is part prosecutorial brief and part (as A.O. Scott has noted) rabid editorial cartoon: a blend of insight, outrage, and sniggering innuendo, the whole package threaded (and tied in a bow) with cheap shots, some of them voiced by Moore, some created in the editing room by intercutting stilted images from old movies. Moore is largely off-screen (no pun intended), but as narrator he's always there, sneering and tsk-tsking.

Here are the salient points: that Bush stole the presidency from Al Gore (who, in one of the film's best scenes, must certify his opponent's election and quell a movement to stall that certification); that Bush and his family had been in bed with the Saudis, which made him less responsive to the danger of al-Qaida terrorism; that a pipeline in Afghanistan promised billions if the Taliban was on board, which was one reason that the threat of Osama Bin Laden (black sheep of a family with whom daddy did business) was swept under the rug. Better to concentrate on Iraq, the administration felt—it had unfinished Saddam business, it was rich in oil, and it was a potential goldmine for U.S. corporations.

Moore ranges far and wide: He apes Apocalypse Now (1979) with footage of bucolic Baghdad before the bombings, then cuts to soldiers explaining the way they hook their iPods to the tank speakers: "You have a good song playing in the background, it gets you really fired up." (I'm surprised he didn't go ahead and play "Ride of the Valkyries.") Then there's graphic footage of dead Iraqi women and small children killed in what the Pentagon said were surgically precise bombings. A grieving old woman shrieks curses at the United States, while U.S. soldiers with missing limbs rail at the administration. On the home front, Moore suggests that the Patriot Act was unread by the legislators who passed it and harps on its absurd applications, like the agent who infiltrated a septuagenarian cookie-baking peace collective in Fresno, Calif. Then he chases hawkish congressmen outside the Capitol. Would they send their own sons and daughters to fight in Iraq? he asks—often to their backs, as they flee.

As I watched California Congressman John T. Doolittle take off from Moore's camera, arms and legs bobbing spastically, I was troubled by the cheapness of Moore's interviewing techniques. But I laughed my ass off anyway. And I felt better about laughing when I checked the warlike congressman's Web site, which mentions his graduation from high school in 1968 but, predictably, no Vietnam service.

All right, you can make anyone into a goofball with a selection of unflattering shots and out-of-context quotations, but it is so very easy to make George W. Bush—with his near-demonic blend of smugness and vacuity—look bad. Or is this in eye of the beholder? Perhaps when Bush speaks of hunting down terrorists, then gets down to the real, golfing business—"Stop these terrorist killers. Thank you. Now watch this drive"—you see an honest, plainspoken leader unfairly ridiculed. But what can even Bush partisans make of those seven minutes in the elementary school classroom after he received the news that a second plane had hit the World Trade Center and the nation was under attack? In one of the few lapses in an otherwise virtuoso rant, Christopher Hitchens argues that Moore would have made sport of a martial, Russell Crowe-like response. Nice try, but that blow wouldn't have landed, and this one does, spectacularly. It is downright spooky to watch the nominal commander in chief and "leader of the free world" behave, in a moment of crisis, like a superfluous man.

Moore is best when he doesn't stage dumb pranks (like broadcasting the Patriot Act in D.C. out of an ice-cream truck) but provokes with his mere presence. When he interviews the author of House of Bush, House of Saud in front of the Saudi embassy and the Secret Service shows up to ask what he's doing, it's a gotcha moment: What's the Secret Service doing protecting non-U.S. government officials? He has a light touch there that's missing from the rest of the Fahrenheit 9/11. In one scene, his camera homes in on a Flint, Mich., woman weeping over a son killed in Iraq, and the effect is vampirish. After the screening, a friend railed that Moore was exploiting a mother's grief. When I suggested that the scene made moral sense in the context of the director's universe, that the exploitation is justified if it saves the lives of other mothers' sons, my friend said, "When did you become a relativist?"

I'm troubled by that charge—and by the fact that we nearly came to blows by the end of the conversation. But when it comes to politics in a time of war, I think that relativism is, well, relative. Fahrenheit 9/11 must be viewed in the context of the Iraq occupation and the torrent of misleading claims that got us there. It must be viewed in the context of Rush Limbaugh repeating the charge that Hillary Clinton had Vince Foster murdered in Fort Marcy Park, or laughing off the exposure of Valerie Plame when, had this been a Democratic administration, he'd be calling every day for the traitor's head. It must be viewed in the context of Ann Coulter calling for the execution of people who disagree with her. It must be viewed in the context of another new documentary, the superb The Hunting of the President, that documents—irrefutably—the lengths to which the right went to destroy Bill Clinton. Moore might be a demagogue, but never—not even during Watergate—has a U.S. administration left itself so open to this kind of savaging.

Along with many other polite liberals, I cringed last year when Moore launched into his charmless, pugilistic acceptance speech at the Academy Awards. Oh, how vulgar, I thought—couldn't he at least have been funny? A year later, I think I might have been too hard on the fat prick. Six months before her death in 1965, the great novelist Dawn Powell wrestled in her diary with the unseemliness of political speech during an "artistic" event: "Lewis Mumford gave jolt to the occasion and I realized I had gotten as chicken as the rest of America because what he said—we had no more right in Vietnam than Russia had in Cuba—was true but I did not think he should use his position to declaim this. Later I saw the only way to accomplish anything is by 'abusing' your power." Exactly. Fahrenheit 9/11 is not a documentary for the ages, it is an act of counterpropaganda that has a boorish, bullying force. It is, all in all, a legitimate abuse of power.

Source

Of course I don't expect anyone to read that whole article, because it's much easier to watch a movie than read an article, and that's the kind of society we are.

I still haven't seen Fahrenheit 9/11, but I plan to sometime. I've seen Bowling for Columbine and really enjoyed it and agreed with most of his points.

Re: Fahrenheit 9/11

I think most of the time, when Michael Moore is wrong on things, it happens. If he wanted something to be a lie, then thats his fault. But movies like Bowling for Columbine and Fahrenheit 9/11 mainly just open people's eyes and get them thinking.

Re: Fahrenheit 9/11

Thanks for the article Bond. Nice read.

The big problem with people who argue about Michael Moore is, while Moore does lie to make points they'll take the fact that he lied about some things to discredit everything else that's true about his movies.

Strangler, Let's say he did lie about the Saudis not being screened and about the thing with the Saudi royal family being the only plane in the air.

So, you've got two lies. Put those in your back pocket and perhaps you can bring them out and throw them at us again later.

Anyways, Taek a look at everything Moore says in the movie that isn't a lie. I'm not telling you to like Moore or even respect him. But just take a look at everything in the movie that isn't a lie. There's a lot of good stuff in there.

Re: Fahrenheit 9/11

This is a movie, this is not a documentary. It is meant to be entertaining. But the problem is, too many people take everything in there to be real facts. Some is, some isn't (sounds like a New York Times article)

Of course there are faults in the presidency. There always has been from the first.

If there was one thing people would do, it should be this:

never take all your facts from one source. moore isn't all correct, strangler isnt all correct (but seems to know more than I) Rush isn't, Shawn Hannity isnt, and MSNBC isn't.

Just makes you wonder what the documentary would look like that is directed by Rush Limbough. (if he knew anything about directing)

point is, just take this movie for what it is: A MOVIE - nothing else.

Re: Fahrenheit 9/11

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dylflon

You're missing my point too. How can you distinguish what is fact and what is fiction if you know he blatantly lies? Why do I have to go out and do fact checking on a documentarian when he should be responsible for his own rediculous movies?

You even helped prove my point. When you saw the movie, could you distinguish the reality from fantasy, or are you willing to believe it all until someone showed you what was wrong? Don't you think there's a problem with that? Don't you think there is a problem with an Acadamy Award winning documentarian lying and manipulating and yet still being seen as some great truth telling muck raker?

If one thing is a lie, and another, then another... how can you trust ANY of it?

Oh, and here's another little fact I can put in my back pocket. One of the congressmen that Moore interviewed about having relatives in the military actually answered that he had a nephew in the military and another that was going to ship overseas. Moore excluded this response from the movie, and then denied it ever happened in the interview with Stephanopolous. Well thank god George has researchers becuase they actually found the raw footage and in fact the congressman does say he has family overseas in the military. Once again, the truth hurts Michael Moore.

Zaglar Ninja, do yourself a favor a leave this thread. You're only hurting yourself.

Re: Fahrenheit 9/11

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jonbo298

movies like Bowling for Columbine and Fahrenheit 9/11 mainly just open people's eyes and get them thinking.

Re: Fahrenheit 9/11

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Strangler

Zaglar Ninja, do yourself a favor a leave this thread. You're only hurting yourself.

I don't know, right now he's making Typhoid look pretty good.

Re: Fahrenheit 9/11

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Strangler

Oh, and here's another little fact I can put in my back pocket. One of the congressmen that Moore interviewed about having relatives in the military actually answered that he had a nephew in the military and another that was going to ship overseas. Moore excluded this response from the movie, and then denied it ever happened in the interview with Stephanopolous. Well thank god George has researchers becuase they actually found the raw footage and in fact the congressman does say he has family overseas in the military. Once again, the truth hurts Michael Moore.

Zaglar Ninja, do yourself a favor a leave this thread. You're only hurting yourself.

ah, strangler is the man.... good ammunition for my girlfriend (who hates bush)

what did bush do to any of you guys, he's a lot smarter than anyone on these boards so just let him do his job.... if kerry gets elected, let him do his job... just let the president work for the love of pete!

Re: Fahrenheit 9/11

They meantioned 1 congressman had family in the military a number of times.
kept saying, all but 1 had no children in the army.

or are we talking about a different one?

Re: Fahrenheit 9/11

Here are more articles about the fabrications of Fahrenheit 9/11:

http://slate.msn.com/id/2102723/

http://www.nypost.com/postopinion/op...ists/23542.htm

And again, I don't expect anyone to read these articles, so don't feel like you have to.

And I think this is what Strangler is talking about Null:

Quote:

A popular statement around MOOREWATCH from Mike’s fans is that there are no lies in F911. Tracking down all of Moore’s claims about financial dealings will take time. However, there is one easy-to-catch lie, and we all know about it already. Mike himself gave us the information needed to catch him in this lie.

In the film, Michael Moore confronts Congressional Representative Mark Kennedy and asks him to help get Congress to sign up their kids for the Army, Marine Corps, etc. Mark Kennedy looks at him funny, and there is a badly-placed jump edit right there. Moore then moves on to asking other members of Congress, who all appear to ignore him and walk away.

And then we get the voiceover:

“Of course, not a single member of Congress wanted to sacrifice their child for the war in Iraq.”

Look at that again. “Of course, not a single member of Congress wanted to sacrifice their child for the war in Iraq.”

Is that factually accurate? Let’s look at the exchange between Rep. Kennedy and Moore, which was provided by Moore himself:

CONGRESSMAN KENNEDY How are you doing?

MM: I’m trying to get members of congress to get their kids to enlist
in the army and go over to Iraq. Is there any way you could help me
with that?

CONGRESSMAN KENNEDY: How would I help you?

MM: Pass it out to other members of congress.

CONGRESSMAN KENNEDY: I’d be happy to. Especially those who voted for the war.

CONGRESSMAN KENNEDY: I have a nephew on his way to Afghanistan.

MM: Because there is only one member who has a kid over there in Iraq.
This is Corporal Henderson, he is helping me out here.

CONGRESSMAN KENNEDY: How are you, good to see you.

MM: There it is, it’s just a basic recruitment thing. Encourage
especially those who were in favor of the war to send their kids. I
appreciate it.

CONGRESSMAN KENNEDY: Okay, bye.
Well, well, well. Look at that. Let’s look closely at this exchange.

MM: Is there any way you could help me
with that?

CONGRESSMAN KENNEDY: How would I help you?

MM: Pass it out to other members of congress.

CONGRESSMAN KENNEDY: I’d be happy to. Especially those who voted for the war.

This exchange was edited out of the film entirely, and instead Kennedy’s meeting with Moore is lumped in with all the Congressmen that seemed to be ducking him. Now that could be considered a lie of omission. He made Kennedy look like all the the Congressmen who didn’t stop.

Except that Kennedy not only spoke to him, but he offered to help. He has family in the military, on who, in Kennedy’s own words, is deployed. Not just enlisted, but deployed. He did not say where, but deployed has a specific meaning that doesn’t equal “one weekend a month” in the National Guard.

Cue the voiceover: “Of course, not a single member of Congress wanted to sacrifice their child for the war in Iraq.”

No matter how you try to spin that, it’s a lie. Moore himself admits that there is in fact ONE member of congress with a child in Iraq.

Is it a major, life-altering, call-your-momma lie? No, but most of Moore’s blatant lies aren’t. Stack a hundred of these little lies up, and you got yourself a movie though, don’t you? A sensationalistic campaign attack ad that purports to be 100% truthful.

Well, however minor, I’ve proven here that there is indeed one rock-solid lie in F911. And Moore’s own words, and the release of the transcript with Kennedy, make the case in a way that no one can deny without looking like a fool. Moore lied. Plain and simple. Kennedy was willing to help recruit Congressional member’s children. He has a nephew that is deployed as we speak. Moore himself admits that there is one other Congressional child serving.

Re: Fahrenheit 9/11

k k. just makin sure. :)