GameTavern

GameTavern (http://www.gametavern.net/forums/index.php)
-   Happy Hour (http://www.gametavern.net/forums/forumdisplay.php?f=12)
-   -   Fahrenheit 9/11 (http://www.gametavern.net/forums/showthread.php?t=8960)

Zaglar Ninja 06-30-2004 09:56 PM

Re: Fahrenheit 9/11
 
I have a better idea, read all of the sites the strangler has posted, they have all the lies.

Now you might notice how small and pathetic those lies are, and their importance is almost none.

So after reading all those sites and getting all those small lies out of the way it is safe to assume all the important things Micheal Moore says is true

Bond 06-30-2004 10:51 PM

Re: Fahrenheit 9/11
 
I'm not sure if I should laugh or feel sorry for the future of Canada.

I will look forward to an intelligent discuss with Dylflon and Typhoid tomorrow. :)

Zaglar Ninja 07-01-2004 12:09 AM

Re: Fahrenheit 9/11
 
I'm serious, they catch terrible lies that don't matter at all. If that doesn't convince you because I know your too lazy just to read the sites, then try Dude wheres my country, he has citations in the book.

Crono 07-01-2004 12:21 AM

Re: Fahrenheit 9/11
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Bond
I'm not sure if I should laugh or feel sorry for the future of Canada.

I'm not sure if I should laugh or feel sorry for the future of the entire planet. ; ; Hmm... I'll probably laugh.

Joeiss 07-01-2004 12:42 AM

Re: Fahrenheit 9/11
 
I am not sure if anybody allready said this, because I didn't read most of this thread.... But did anybody else catch the little bit of music they played when it showed George W. Bush's military record? When they zoomed in in the paragraph speaking about him not taking the physical, they played the first couple of seconds of Eric Clapton's hit song, "Cocaine." I thought that was kind of funny.

Bond 07-01-2004 11:16 AM

Re: Fahrenheit 9/11
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Zaglar Ninja
I'm serious, they catch terrible lies that don't matter at all. If that doesn't convince you because I know your too lazy just to read the sites, then try Dude wheres my country, he has citations in the book.

I find it rather funny you accuse me of being "too lazy just to read the sites" considering my two previous posts in this very thread that you were obviously too lazy to read:

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bond
I have found a very nice article from Slate.com, a liberal website, that calls Fahrenheit 9/11 counterpropaganda. If you don't believe me they're liberal, the writer of the article calls himself liberal, and the article that appears before this one reads: "Bush plays the Nazi card." Here is the article:

Michael Moore's Fahrenheit 9/11 is unfair and outrageous. You got a problem with that?

Back in the '80s—the era of Reagan and Bush 41, when milquetoasts Walter Mondale and Michael Dukakis were the ineffectual Democratic candidates and Jimmy Carter was off building houses for poor people, when Anthony Lewis was writing oh-so-temperately in the New York Times, which was then leaning neoconward under the stewardship of Abe Rosenthal, when there was an explosion of dirty Republican tricksters like Lee Atwater and trash-talking right-wingers, from Morton Downey Jr. to the fledgling Rush Limbaugh—I found myself wishing, wishing fervidly, for a blowhard whom the left could call its own. Someone who wouldn't shrink before the right's bellicosity. Someone who would bellow back, mock unashamedly, and maybe even recapture the prankster spirit of counterculture figures like Abbie Hoffman.

Yeah, I know: Be careful what you wish for.

In 20 years of writing about film, no movie has ever tied me up in knots the way Michael Moore's Fahrenheit 9/11 (Lions Gate) has. It delighted me; it disgusted me. I celebrate it; I lament it. I'm sure of only one thing: that I don't trust anyone—pro or con—who doesn't feel a twinge of doubt about his or her responses. What follows might be broadly labeled as "waffling," but I hope, at least, that it is bold and decisive waffling.
Needless to say, Fahrenheit 9/11 never waffles. The liberals' The Passion of the Christ, it ascribes only the most venal motives to the other side. There is no sign in the filmmaker of an openness to other interpretations (or worldviews). This is not quite a documentary—which I define, very loosely, as a work in which the director begins by turning on the camera and allowing the reality to speak for itself, aware of its complexities, contradictions, and multitudes. You are with Moore, or you are a war criminal. The film is part prosecutorial brief and part (as A.O. Scott has noted) rabid editorial cartoon: a blend of insight, outrage, and sniggering innuendo, the whole package threaded (and tied in a bow) with cheap shots, some of them voiced by Moore, some created in the editing room by intercutting stilted images from old movies. Moore is largely off-screen (no pun intended), but as narrator he's always there, sneering and tsk-tsking.

Here are the salient points: that Bush stole the presidency from Al Gore (who, in one of the film's best scenes, must certify his opponent's election and quell a movement to stall that certification); that Bush and his family had been in bed with the Saudis, which made him less responsive to the danger of al-Qaida terrorism; that a pipeline in Afghanistan promised billions if the Taliban was on board, which was one reason that the threat of Osama Bin Laden (black sheep of a family with whom daddy did business) was swept under the rug. Better to concentrate on Iraq, the administration felt—it had unfinished Saddam business, it was rich in oil, and it was a potential goldmine for U.S. corporations.

Moore ranges far and wide: He apes Apocalypse Now (1979) with footage of bucolic Baghdad before the bombings, then cuts to soldiers explaining the way they hook their iPods to the tank speakers: "You have a good song playing in the background, it gets you really fired up." (I'm surprised he didn't go ahead and play "Ride of the Valkyries.") Then there's graphic footage of dead Iraqi women and small children killed in what the Pentagon said were surgically precise bombings. A grieving old woman shrieks curses at the United States, while U.S. soldiers with missing limbs rail at the administration. On the home front, Moore suggests that the Patriot Act was unread by the legislators who passed it and harps on its absurd applications, like the agent who infiltrated a septuagenarian cookie-baking peace collective in Fresno, Calif. Then he chases hawkish congressmen outside the Capitol. Would they send their own sons and daughters to fight in Iraq? he asks—often to their backs, as they flee.

As I watched California Congressman John T. Doolittle take off from Moore's camera, arms and legs bobbing spastically, I was troubled by the cheapness of Moore's interviewing techniques. But I laughed my ass off anyway. And I felt better about laughing when I checked the warlike congressman's Web site, which mentions his graduation from high school in 1968 but, predictably, no Vietnam service.

All right, you can make anyone into a goofball with a selection of unflattering shots and out-of-context quotations, but it is so very easy to make George W. Bush—with his near-demonic blend of smugness and vacuity—look bad. Or is this in eye of the beholder? Perhaps when Bush speaks of hunting down terrorists, then gets down to the real, golfing business—"Stop these terrorist killers. Thank you. Now watch this drive"—you see an honest, plainspoken leader unfairly ridiculed. But what can even Bush partisans make of those seven minutes in the elementary school classroom after he received the news that a second plane had hit the World Trade Center and the nation was under attack? In one of the few lapses in an otherwise virtuoso rant, Christopher Hitchens argues that Moore would have made sport of a martial, Russell Crowe-like response. Nice try, but that blow wouldn't have landed, and this one does, spectacularly. It is downright spooky to watch the nominal commander in chief and "leader of the free world" behave, in a moment of crisis, like a superfluous man.

Moore is best when he doesn't stage dumb pranks (like broadcasting the Patriot Act in D.C. out of an ice-cream truck) but provokes with his mere presence. When he interviews the author of House of Bush, House of Saud in front of the Saudi embassy and the Secret Service shows up to ask what he's doing, it's a gotcha moment: What's the Secret Service doing protecting non-U.S. government officials? He has a light touch there that's missing from the rest of the Fahrenheit 9/11. In one scene, his camera homes in on a Flint, Mich., woman weeping over a son killed in Iraq, and the effect is vampirish. After the screening, a friend railed that Moore was exploiting a mother's grief. When I suggested that the scene made moral sense in the context of the director's universe, that the exploitation is justified if it saves the lives of other mothers' sons, my friend said, "When did you become a relativist?"

I'm troubled by that charge—and by the fact that we nearly came to blows by the end of the conversation. But when it comes to politics in a time of war, I think that relativism is, well, relative. Fahrenheit 9/11 must be viewed in the context of the Iraq occupation and the torrent of misleading claims that got us there. It must be viewed in the context of Rush Limbaugh repeating the charge that Hillary Clinton had Vince Foster murdered in Fort Marcy Park, or laughing off the exposure of Valerie Plame when, had this been a Democratic administration, he'd be calling every day for the traitor's head. It must be viewed in the context of Ann Coulter calling for the execution of people who disagree with her. It must be viewed in the context of another new documentary, the superb The Hunting of the President, that documents—irrefutably—the lengths to which the right went to destroy Bill Clinton. Moore might be a demagogue, but never—not even during Watergate—has a U.S. administration left itself so open to this kind of savaging.

Along with many other polite liberals, I cringed last year when Moore launched into his charmless, pugilistic acceptance speech at the Academy Awards. Oh, how vulgar, I thought—couldn't he at least have been funny? A year later, I think I might have been too hard on the fat prick. Six months before her death in 1965, the great novelist Dawn Powell wrestled in her diary with the unseemliness of political speech during an "artistic" event: "Lewis Mumford gave jolt to the occasion and I realized I had gotten as chicken as the rest of America because what he said—we had no more right in Vietnam than Russia had in Cuba—was true but I did not think he should use his position to declaim this. Later I saw the only way to accomplish anything is by 'abusing' your power." Exactly. Fahrenheit 9/11 is not a documentary for the ages, it is an act of counterpropaganda that has a boorish, bullying force. It is, all in all, a legitimate abuse of power.

Source

Of course I don't expect anyone to read that whole article, because it's much easier to watch a movie than read an article, and that's the kind of society we are.

I still haven't seen Fahrenheit 9/11, but I plan to sometime. I've seen Bowling for Columbine and really enjoyed it and agreed with most of his points.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bond
Here are more articles about the fabrications of Fahrenheit 9/11:

http://slate.msn.com/id/2102723/

http://www.nypost.com/postopinion/op...ists/23542.htm

And again, I don't expect anyone to read these articles, so don't feel like you have to.

And I think this is what Strangler is talking about Null:

A popular statement around MOOREWATCH from Mike’s fans is that there are no lies in F911. Tracking down all of Moore’s claims about financial dealings will take time. However, there is one easy-to-catch lie, and we all know about it already. Mike himself gave us the information needed to catch him in this lie.

In the film, Michael Moore confronts Congressional Representative Mark Kennedy and asks him to help get Congress to sign up their kids for the Army, Marine Corps, etc. Mark Kennedy looks at him funny, and there is a badly-placed jump edit right there. Moore then moves on to asking other members of Congress, who all appear to ignore him and walk away.

And then we get the voiceover:

“Of course, not a single member of Congress wanted to sacrifice their child for the war in Iraq.”

Look at that again. “Of course, not a single member of Congress wanted to sacrifice their child for the war in Iraq.”

Is that factually accurate? Let’s look at the exchange between Rep. Kennedy and Moore, which was provided by Moore himself:

CONGRESSMAN KENNEDY How are you doing?

MM: I’m trying to get members of congress to get their kids to enlist
in the army and go over to Iraq. Is there any way you could help me
with that?

CONGRESSMAN KENNEDY: How would I help you?

MM: Pass it out to other members of congress.

CONGRESSMAN KENNEDY: I’d be happy to. Especially those who voted for the war.

CONGRESSMAN KENNEDY: I have a nephew on his way to Afghanistan.

MM: Because there is only one member who has a kid over there in Iraq.
This is Corporal Henderson, he is helping me out here.

CONGRESSMAN KENNEDY: How are you, good to see you.

MM: There it is, it’s just a basic recruitment thing. Encourage
especially those who were in favor of the war to send their kids. I
appreciate it.

CONGRESSMAN KENNEDY: Okay, bye.
Well, well, well. Look at that. Let’s look closely at this exchange.

MM: Is there any way you could help me
with that?

CONGRESSMAN KENNEDY: How would I help you?

MM: Pass it out to other members of congress.

CONGRESSMAN KENNEDY: I’d be happy to. Especially those who voted for the war.

This exchange was edited out of the film entirely, and instead Kennedy’s meeting with Moore is lumped in with all the Congressmen that seemed to be ducking him. Now that could be considered a lie of omission. He made Kennedy look like all the the Congressmen who didn’t stop.

Except that Kennedy not only spoke to him, but he offered to help. He has family in the military, on who, in Kennedy’s own words, is deployed. Not just enlisted, but deployed. He did not say where, but deployed has a specific meaning that doesn’t equal “one weekend a month” in the National Guard.

Cue the voiceover: “Of course, not a single member of Congress wanted to sacrifice their child for the war in Iraq.”

No matter how you try to spin that, it’s a lie. Moore himself admits that there is in fact ONE member of congress with a child in Iraq.

Is it a major, life-altering, call-your-momma lie? No, but most of Moore’s blatant lies aren’t. Stack a hundred of these little lies up, and you got yourself a movie though, don’t you? A sensationalistic campaign attack ad that purports to be 100% truthful.

Well, however minor, I’ve proven here that there is indeed one rock-solid lie in F911. And Moore’s own words, and the release of the transcript with Kennedy, make the case in a way that no one can deny without looking like a fool. Moore lied. Plain and simple. Kennedy was willing to help recruit Congressional member’s children. He has a nephew that is deployed as we speak. Moore himself admits that there is one other Congressional child serving.

I'll let you have the last word.

Professor S 07-01-2004 11:59 AM

Re: Fahrenheit 9/11
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Typhoid
Sorry, but i kinda have to agree with him.

You said it yourself, you havent seen the movie, so don't just cite things trying to save your case on Moore. Wait until you see the movie, then do it.

No, I have not seen the movie yet, as I refuse to put any money in Michael Moore's pockets. I have read the transcript and seen the multitude of arguments that cite specific examples of his lies and misinformation.

Its kind of like making judgements about history. I don't have to be there to do research on it and make judgements about it. If you do your homework that should be enough.

Quote:

Dont back your case on a guy that debunked Mother Teresa, the woman was technically a saint, how can you debunk a friggin' saint?!?! What are the debunkings against a saint?
Don't dismiss someone one because they criticized someone who is technically a saint. Do you know Mother Theresa? Have you seen what she does while in these third world nations or are you just repeating majority opinion without questioning its validity?

Hitchins WAS there with Mother Theresa in those nations as she worked with the disenfranchised and tought them to not use condoms. Now Africa has the largest crisis in AIDS, Hepatitis B and other STD's in the world. Am I saying that its all her fault? No. But she sure as hell didn't help and most likely helped it happen with her rhetoric. This is all from an interview with Hitchins a few years back on Dennis Miller's HBO show.

Quote:

" One time...she drank wine.."
"One time... she helped spread AIDS."

Quote:

The fact is they can debunk Moore all they want, but Moore is also debunking Bush.
You debunk someone by LYING ABOUT THEM and misleading the public. Debunking is exposing TRUTH, not creating FICTION.

Quote:

I can understand you wanting to stand up for your beliefs, but i just think its kind of sad that you cant just even agree with other people and their opinions.
Why would I agree with an opinion that has no evidence to back it up and constantly ignores evidence against it? That makes NO SENSE. You want me to agree with an opinion, support it with facts. I asked Zaglar Ninja to cite sources outside of Michael Moore himself that defend his actions and support his claims that he is telling the truth. He refused to even look. Why in the world would I respect that opinion, when it is based on NOTHING?

Jonbo298 07-01-2004 01:39 PM

Re: Fahrenheit 9/11
 
Then download the movie. Michael Moore has said that he doesn't care if people do it. Hell, I saw on that "moorewatch" site that they posted a torrent link to the movie

Professor S 07-01-2004 03:58 PM

Re: Fahrenheit 9/11
 
I tried downloading before from Moorewatch it but it won't play on my computer. I get one of the windows errors they want you to report. I'll try and find it on KaZaA

Typhoid 07-01-2004 04:01 PM

Re: Fahrenheit 9/11
 
Strangler, Mother Teresa didnt give them condoms because she wanted to spread AIDS, its against her religion.



(And i dont think its on Kazaa, i tried and couldnt find it)

Professor S 07-01-2004 04:08 PM

Re: Fahrenheit 9/11
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Typhoid
Strangler, Mother Teresa didnt give them condoms because she wanted to spread AIDS, its against her religion.



(And i dont think its on Kazaa, i tried and couldnt find it)

Does the end result care whether or not her intentions where religious in nature? No. Plenty of horrible things in history where based on religious beliefs. The end result of her teaching is killing literally hundreds of thousands if not millions of Africans. I'm not saying she is a horrible person, just misguided and definitely NOT beyond criticism.

As for Kazaa, it doesn't matter anyway. Everytime I hit the search button the whole application shuts down. I think there's something wrong with my PC...

Null 07-01-2004 04:11 PM

Re: Fahrenheit 9/11
 
using kazaa might be the reason somethings wrong with your computer. :p hehe :D

Bond 07-01-2004 04:12 PM

Re: Fahrenheit 9/11
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Typhoid
Strangler, Mother Teresa didnt give them condoms because she wanted to spread AIDS, its against her religion.

Good job on your Catholic theology Typhoid. I believe the official reason the Catholic church does not support condoms is because they are anti-creation. In an ideal situation the partners should be married and want children.

Typhoid 07-01-2004 04:28 PM

Re: Fahrenheit 9/11
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by The Strangler
Does the end result care whether or not her intentions where religious in nature? No. Plenty of horrible things in history where based on religious beliefs. The end result of her teaching is killing literally hundreds of thousands if not millions of Africans. I'm not saying she is a horrible person, just misguided and definitely NOT beyond criticism.



But how can you debunk someone on their religious beliefs, I thought you can only debunk lies, not religious stances.

Shes Catholic, so she doesnt believe in birth control, now it wasnt her idea to be against birth control, its her religion.

How can you say someone is wrong based on how they were rasied?

Im sorry, im not catholic, but i cant trust any "debunker" that tried to debunk a saint.

Dylflon 07-01-2004 05:23 PM

Re: Fahrenheit 9/11
 
Say Strangler, I haven't seen you give the people of Africa condoms either. So aren't you just as responsible for the spread of AIDS as Mother Teresa?


All times are GMT -4. The time now is 11:07 PM.

Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.6.4
Copyright ©2000 - 2025, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
GameTavern