Re: Buyng a Gun
 

Just curious, what are the background and waiting list laws in your state? or have you already stated them in the thread?

Re: Buyng a Gun
 

Nationally, I think it's 7 days with a few exceptions. I have no problem waiting and no problem with background checks. Hell, I'm not going to buy one for at least a few more months. I've been debating myself about it for a couple months as it is.

Re: Buyng a Gun
 

I meant the exact opposite. I wouldn't want the skills police officers have to be held in the same regard as anyone else. I expect them to be much better than a civilian at their job, especially when it comes to wielding a firearm.

Why don't we just take it as the fact I live in Vancouver, Canada - and you live in the U.S.

For example, Police here don't shoot to kill, for one. They shoot to wound, because they want the person to stand trial, not die.

It's maybe not that I'm twisting my entire idea of the scenario itself, but rather the scenario itself is not likely to happen here.

Breaking and entering, of course that happens. But if you have an alarm, they always run away. I can't remember the last time I read a story that happened around here of someone going into a house, ignored the alarm and murdered a family. Or even someone who broke into an alarm-less house and murdered anyone for that matter.

I don't even remember the last time I read a story that happened around here where someones house got broken into and they all got raped.

The beauty of Canada, is that since guns are illegal, people who break and enter don't have them the vast majority of the time. The gangs have the guns, and they don't deal with B&E's. They deal with drugs and other gang-related things.

So as I said, it's not that I'm twisting my view of the scenario, it's that the scenario of someone breaking into your house armed with a gun and malicious intent isn't likely to happen around here.

Re: Buyng a Gun
 

Ok, but I don't live in Canada, and to be honest my scenarios have nothing to do with nationality. These are situations that could happen to anyone, anywhere. In those scenarios, do you believe the response is legitimate, or not. If not, what would be your alternative.

Re: Buyng a Gun
 

That would be sweet!
I need to figure out a way to rig my car like that.

Re: Buyng a Gun
 

I think they actually had those in Australia for a while...

Re: Buyng a Gun
 

I'm well aware you don't live in Canada.
I do. Which is why I, and Dylan have a different view on these things.


Because when you said:


I thought "Wait a minute, that's not a realistic situation or response for me, I better explain why in order to make it valid", so I said:


Those situations could happen anywhere, sure. Just like at any moment a Jumbo Jet can smash through anyones house at any given time.
But realistically, no - that scenario isn't likely to happen everywhere.

Like I was trying to say - our view is different on this because A) Guns are illegal, so people who break in don't have them - because people don't defend their houses with them B) People here don't break in with intent to kill, maim or rape - they break in with intent to steal shit and will flee if you wake up, or they hear your voice.

I don't know why you seem to think Canada is the same as the US in this aspect, but you're mistaken. We have crime, and we have murder. But not like that. We use alarm systems for our cars, and houses. They work just fine.

Nobody I know who has an alarm has ever been broken into, and nobody I know has ever had the thought "I need a gun to protect my family because someone might try to murder or rape them." It doesn't happen here.

Like I said, difference of opinion based on the likelihood of situations.

Re: Buyng a Gun
 

Yeah - there was a prototype for one a guy was trying to sell - that's why I brought it up, because it never got off the ground because compare to an alarm system it's ridiculously impractical.

Re: Buyng a Gun
 

Typhoid, at this point I just think you're trying to avoid the question I asked. I asked you to respond to pretty specific scenarios, but you still seem stuck on location for some reason, so lets try this one:

Imagine you do live in America and as the stats I linked point out, people DO break in to assault and rape. Now what do you think about the scenarios I provided. Are they reasonable responses considering the situation?

Re: Buyng a Gun
 

I'd maybe like to mention that RCMP do in fact shoot to kill. Most of the time if someone is showing signs of possible violence, the officer assumes that their life is in danger and more often than not a few bullets are fired at the torso. 'Maiming' isn't clipping elbows, it's subduing by bullets to the torso. Granted, there are officers with common sense enough to tear apart someone's calf or femur if the assailant isn't posing an instant threat(approaching with a knife).
I sometimes think it would be better to have a bullet to a limb instead of the freaky tazering...but there's always the chance that the officer didn't get his morning cup of coffee.

bang bang bang

Re: Buyng a Gun
 

To be fair when you asked before you never said "Imagine you live in the US" you just said "Imagine if this is happening" which I can't do, because it's not probable for me.


Would I buy a gun to protect my family if I lived in the US? No. Maybe if I was getting broken into constantly, and the alarm system and deadbolt/latches clearly weren't doing their proper job - maybe I'd buy a gun, yes. But just as a "Hey, it could happen" type thing, I wouldn't. I stand firm on my comment of "guns are for hunting."

However assuming breaking and entering where murder and rape are common things, which they apparently are - I would move. What better way to protect your family from getting killed or raped than removing them from the situation itself.


RCMP aren't 'cops'. They're the 'special cops'. I meant normal police officers.

Re: Buyng a Gun
 

Uhm...

I'm a bit more worried about the danger that having this gun poses on your family.

I mean, sometimes you take all the steps to make sure little (whatever you're naming your kid) has no way to get his/her hands on the gun, but kids will surprise you and are much smarter than you think.

Also what if you were to accidentally shoot a member of your family while defending them from someone? I mean an unlikely scenario, but it could happen, especially with proposed shotgun.

Besides I just don't see the effectiveness of a gun. What I can see being more effective is some type of panic room. Sure they steal everything you own, but at least you keep your lives.

Re: Buyng a Gun
 

So, Typh, you're saying rape and murder rates in home invasions for Vancouver are much lower than the U.S. I wonder what the actual stats are beyond your anecdotal evidence for Vancouver. That sounds pretty far-fetched to me.

I mean, I don't know of anyone that had their home invaded and were murdered or raped, but it doesn't mean the rate is any different than other places.

Re: Buyng a Gun
 

And just for fun, the homocide rate in Canada is 1.85 per 100,000 (as of 2006)
As of 2006, the homocide rate for the US is 5.69 per 100,000.

However, in Vancouver the homocide rate is 2.01 per 100,000 people.

So believe me when I say, around here it's relatively unlikely.

Re: Buyng a Gun
 

For comparison of Canadian crimes (All as of 2004, can't find a newer census):
http://www.statcan.gc.ca/daily-quoti...50721a-eng.htm

622 homocides.
23,534 sexual assaults.
27,477 robberies.
17,294 thefts over $5000.
680,885 thefts under $5000.
18,002 counts of offensive weapons.
48,052 people caught posessing marijuana.

For fun though, let's do that as per 100,000 people:

2 homocides per 100,000 people.
860 B&E's per 100,000 people.
54 thefts over 5 grand per 100,000 people.
150 in posession of pot per 100,000 people.
304 drug related incidents per 100,000 people.

But remember, that is all of Canada - not Vancouver.

Re: Buyng a Gun
 

So, ok, the violent crime rate appears to be less (though none of those stats directly address home invasion), but in any case it's not like it's nonexistent in Canada (and even more so in Vancouver). So it's not like the scenarios Prof. S are saying happen all the time in the U.S. but never happen in Vancouver.

For full disclosure, I lean towards not owning a gun for home protection. I think the chances of something going wrong with the gun and hurting someone are higher than the chances of your home being violently invaded. I just take issue with your statement that you can't fathom Prof. S's scenarios because you live in the utopia of Vancouver. :p

Re: Buyng a Gun
 

What are you talking about?
It's lumped in with Robberies.
In Canada we don't get alot, so we have to combine stats. :ohreilly:

1 in 7 robberies in Canada, the person has a gun.

And since you want the direct stat:

So let's just shoot the shit and say 125,000 break-ins in all of Canada in a given year in a residence, and if 1 and 7 of every break in has a gun, that means of those 125,000 residential break-ins, 17,857 of them were possibly armed with a gun and 107,143 of them had either no weapon at all, or a knife.

Just sayin'. ;)

Re: Buyng a Gun
 

I live in Canada too, im just down the street from you guys, but im fine with people owning guns. I plan to acquire one at some point in my life. Its just a lot harder to do in Canada.

Re: Buyng a Gun
 

Which of the following do you plan to acquire a gun for though, Adam:

A) As a conversation piece
B) Just to have one
C) For hunting purposes
D) Because you're afraid someone might rape and kill your family


Edit: For clarification, the reason me and Dylan are against owning guns that are not for hunting is the following:

As soon as people have guns in their homes for protection (or any other purposes, really) people will start bringing guns to breaking and entering scenarios. They won't bring a knife to a gun fight. Guns beget guns, and then the cycle never ends, as we can see with the way it is in the US.

Re: Buyng a Gun
 

A, B, and I guess D.
Not really into the murdering of innocent animals minding their own business.

Mainly to bring to a range and test out my mad skillz.
Around my place though id want a gun more so to protect my family from wild animals such as bears and cougars, not so much worried about someone breaking into my house.

Re: Buyng a Gun
 

No, Typh, apparently "home invasion" is defined as breaking into a home with intent for violence or rape, or that ends up in violence or rape. I say "apparently" because I just learned that myself. I don't think any of those stats pertain to that specifically.

But regardless, such things still happen in Vancouver and Canada. It may not be as common as in the U.S., but it's not exactly likely that it will happen to you in the U.S. either. So that you can't fathom it happening in Vantopia sounds like b.s. from pride. But I think your further comments confirm that's it's more about your opinion that you wouldn't own a gun to protect your home either way. Which I tend to agree with.

And good for Vancouver. I didn't know it was so well rated.

Buuuut... what do the native Americans up there think of that rating? :)

Re: Buyng a Gun
 

Most of the Native Americans around here are drug dealers and gang members, at least the ones on the island as far as I know. Many a time have I been told not to talk to or go near any natives while visiting the island. :p

Re: Buyng a Gun
 

I really don't understand why Typhoid won't answer my scenarios. I'm not even asking him to approve owning a gun, just to see if analyze whether or not the scenarios are reasonable if someone did have a gun and someone invaded their home.

To be honest, Typh, I think your avoiding the questions because you are uncomfortable with the obvious answer: "Yes, that is a reasonable response."

Re: Buyng a Gun
 

I answered it.

If I haven't answered it to your liking, re-ask the scenario, and I will re-answer it.

Edit: And Mana, it's not 'bs about pride'. It's because I'm honestly not concerned about someone breaking into my house with intent to kill. Rob me of things, sure. But I'm not worried they'll have a gun. But the other half of that was tongue-in-cheek, if you didn't notice.

Re: Buyng a Gun
 

This isn't a US presidential debate. You don't get to rewrite my questions because you find their premise uncomfortable. These scenarios have nothing to do with judging gun ownership, alarm systems or pet availability. They are specific situations where you have a gun and your home has been invaded. Would you behave as described in the scenarios or not? If not, how would you behave differently in those situations?

Either answer it or don't, it will be the last time I bring it up. To be honest, your refusal to respond to what are really simple scenarios tells me more than your answer ever could.

Re: Buyng a Gun
 

Okay, I will answer it to your liking covering every possible angle, then:

If I was in a situation where I lived in a location where I was afraid enough for my families lives and well-being to the point where I needed to own a gun to shoot other people to keep them at bay, not only would I buy a handgun because it causes less collateral damage - and I won't want to miss what I'm aiming at and possibly blast through the wall behind them and hit my son our wife; is easier to store and less likely for my toddler son to get his hands on - but I would take every precaution needed to ensure I do not take another human beings life.


So if I lived in a shitty enough area where someone broke into my house with a gun with malicious intent and for some reason instead of buying an alarm system or moving to a safer location and I happened to own a gun instead of doing those two previous things, yes - I would defend myself and my family. But then after wards I would most likely either get to the realization of "Hey, this area isn't safe" or "You know what, I should buy an alarm system".

Dude, okay - if you were the one breaking into a house, with a gun - and you were to murder and rape a family - how would you do it.
I expect an answer to this simple, likely scenario. Afterall, understanding the enemy is everything.

It's not that I find the premise uncomfortable. It's that I was saying "Burglars don't really have guns here, so I don't fear that, so therefore I can't see where you're coming from based on experience, therefore I don't feel I personally need a gun to protect from home invasion." I even proved that statement was true. 1 in 7 burglaries in Canada are commited with guns. And in all of Canada, there were roughly 275,000 break-ins in total. And only about 125,000 happened in residences. It's like me asking you about how awesome and useful health care is. You're not going to change my opinion to the point of me saying "You know what, owning a gun around a child is a brilliant idea." Just like I don't assume you'll suddenly think health care is a brilliant idea. I've stated my opinion on guns. They are for hunting, and war. They should be illegal for all other purposes. This is why I love Canada. The system works, as proven by the 1 in 7 burglary numbers. And I have also stated that I would not buy a gun instead of buying an alarm system. I also wasn't the one to mention getting a dog - that was Dylan.

Re: Buyng a Gun
 

Thanks for agreeing with me. :D

Re: Buyng a Gun
 

Neat.
Back to the good 'ol Strangler days, I see.
It's a shame you don't actually answer anything directed at you, and only look for one thing to constantly jump on, negating everything else said of relevance.

It's a difference of opinion, and location which changes perception entirely. Be an adult and realize that.
While you believe in killing someone instead of preventing them from entering, I believing in stopping them from getting into the house so the situation doesn't arise in the first place.
Since I know you love the last word, get it in and enjoy the shit out of it.

Re: Buyng a Gun
 

Canadian statistics don't have anything to do with those situations and are therefore irrelevant to my query.

Typhoid, I answered everything of relevance. I asked those scenarios after a lot of thought and reflection after hearing what you and Dyflon had to say. I wanted to workout realistic scenarios that would help me make the best, moral decisions if the unthinkable should ever happen, and I honestly asked for your opinion on them. I already stated I was buying a gun, I wanted to be sure my plans to operate it were within reason. As for "that will never happen" I did address them, and in fact that was one of the reasons why I made my scenarios so specific.

As for the "move somewhere else" argument, well that is an argument from a point of affluence and not necessity. There are plenty of people who live in statistically dangerous areas that cannot move, and in fact I would say the majority of people who live in dangerous areas can't afford to move (why would they be there to begin with?). In fact, I am one of those people who can't afford to move. I'm upside down on my house right now due to market drop. I couldn't sell my house if I did live in a violent area (I don't, but I live next to a violent area).

But again, moving was never a part of those scenarios. They were located in any house, anywhere. My specificity was meant to prevent the irrelevant alternatives you insisted on offering.

Re: Buyng a Gun
 

Look, people, I am pro gun control. On a philosophical level, I would like to rid our society of guns altogether (although I'm practical enough to know that's not happening in this country).

But let's take a step back and really think here. Professor S owning a gun is not the problem here. The problem is too many guns being sold second-hand without any documentation and guns being sold to people who have been institutionalized multiple times and are off their meds. I say as long as Professor S promises to store his gun safely and as long as he's not posting videos on YouTube about how he wants to kill Nancy Pelosi, I say let him have his damn gun.

Re: Buyng a Gun
 

I'd never kill Nancy Pelosi! Her very existence is an argument for conservatism. :D