Michael Moore-on and 9/11

[Crash]

Ok, so apparently michael moore (michael moron) said the passengers of the 9/11 attacks were scaredy cats because they didn't fight back. Apparently if they weren't all white dudes, and were black instead, they would have stood up to the terrorists. This pissed off a lot of people. (myself included)

here's the link: http://www.worldnetdaily.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=30367

the reason they didn't fight back michael moron, was because the terrorists told all the passengers to be calm, and that they were returning to the airport. If no everyone stayed calm, everyone would be ok.

I like his filmmaking to an extent, but his political attacks are just retarded.

[Jonbo298]

If he really said that, then he needs to rethink that statement. The people aboard the first 2 planes to hit didn't have a clue on what to do because they've never seen it happen before (in the news at least). It took until the 4th plane before passengers knew about the other hijackings and though "We aint letting a 4th one **** with us" and took matters into their own hands.

[Dylflon]

To be fair, that's not the most credible news source.

I think it's safe to say that it's a pretty right wing religious site. Not that the views of these people aren't creible...it's just that these people just don't seem to like Michael Moore.

Check out some of the other headlines. Most of them have things to do with religious people or homosexuality or the new testament on DVD.

There are also ads on the page about books that bash Clinton.

I won't believe the Michael Moore thing until someone can find the story on another website. Until then I'll have a hard time taking that tidbit seriously. Maybe a neutral news website?

[Dylflon]

Found it in the Washington times. The way the Washington Times words it, it seems he was being very sarcastic. There's a part of Bowling for Columbine where he talks about people being afraid of black people. But even if he was being sarcastic what he said came out very wrong. Sure doesn't make him look good.

[Neo]

A lot of his work is entertaining but he does have the tendency to lose his mind from time to time. Regardless I think his new 9/11 movie is going to convince a lot of neutral voters to go for Kerry.

[Professor S]

I don't think anything Michael Moore does changes anyone's opinions or voting. If you lean to the left, you are going to stand up and applaud everything he puts out, regardless of the fact that he stages events, manipulates video and sometimes out and out lies, because you feel his intentions are in the right place. If you lean to the right you are going to completely dismiss anything he makes because he stages events, manipulates video and sometimes out and out lies.

Back on point, though, there has always been accusations that much of the inferences in Moore's work are inherently racist. He loves to draw lines between blacks and whites whenever possible, but these racist views are overlooked because they FAVOR black people. While favorable stereotypes may be more acceptable than negative ones, they are still wrong and racist at heart.

[Typhoid]

N/O here, but who are you to say he out and out lies, manipulates video and stages events? Did you work with him on any of these movies?

Just as easily and proofless that your saying he does these things i can do the same and say he is a credible source. We both have no proof. Its all by word.

I could say that Jon Stewart is a valid news source and all of his "field reporters" are actually in Iraq, not infront of a green screen. It doesnt make it true.

And i dont see how separating stats for Blacks and whites is racist. Is separating stats for Men and women sexist?

[Crono]

He loves to draw lines between blacks and whites whenever possible, but these racist views are overlooked because they FAVOR black people. While favorable stereotypes may be more acceptable than negative ones, they are still wrong and racist at heart.


Of course they're overlooked since they favour black people, if anything favours white folks, it's automatically considered racist, which pisses me off.

But that's another story of it's own.

[Professor S]

N/O here, but who are you to say he out and out lies, manipulates video and stages events? Did you work with him on any of these movies?

Just as easily and proofless that your saying he does these things i can do the same and say he is a credible source. We both have no proof. Its all by word.

I've had about enough of this. You say all I have is my word, and I have respeatedly posted the Wallstreet Journal article... I REPEAT... AGAIN... WALLSTREET JOURNAL... ONE OF THE MOST RESPECTED NEWSPAPERS IN THE WORLD... several times that POINTS OUT the misinformation, manipulation and lies of Moore's movies and you still don't get it, so I officially give up on you since I don't think you even bothered to read any of the sources I posted. Its not that you can't see the forest for the trees... you can't even see the damn trees when it comes to this issue.

But for everyone else, here is the article that the Wallstreet Journal cites for much of its information on Michael Moore's lies and hypocrisy.

http://www.hardylaw.net/Truth_About_Bowling.html

And here is the actual WALLSTREET JOURNAL article that mentions all of Moore's LIES.

http://www.opinionjournal.com/forms/printThis.html?id=110003233

Here is the address of an excellent Moore debunking website, but it does lean right, so take it with a grain of salt when they start getting into Marilyn Manson and moralism in general.

http://bowlingfortruth.com

And here is the link to the origional thread in which I already went through all of this, but no one listened because they are blinded by political affiliation.

http://www.gametavern.net/forums/showthread.php?t=8616&page=1&pp=15&highlight=Michael+Moore

I'm done with this lunacy for now. The Strangler has left the building.

[Jonbo298]

The whole US Government is corrupt. I'm leaving it at that.

[Crono]

The whole US Government is corrupt. I'm leaving it at that.

Every government is corrupt. No matter what, as long as you're in a position of power, the only you care about is the money.

So it doesn't matter what country... US, Canada, Russia, etc etc, all of the governments are fairly corrupt, some in different ways, and some in more ways than others. It is just the will to power.

[Seth]

I have a hard time admiring Moore as a film maker or person.

Sure, his 'documentaries' make millions but he does lie.

And if it isn't lying then it's twisted facts or facts that really have no relevance except to stir the emotions of the viewers.

Lose some ****ing weight and stop dressing like you've been at your computer for a week striaight without showering. It's a lame attempt to make himself look like just another blue collar. That annoys me.

And I hate his writing. I feel like he's talking to the readers like they're kids.

I really want to se fahrenheit 9/11 though.

[BreakABone]

I say the man speaks the truth.

I say we have a 10 black person minimum on each plane! :D

I've always wanted to see London. ;)

His statement however does remind me of a skit from the Chappelle show as well as a joke from stand-up, but for some reason, I don't think humor is wanted in this thread.

[Typhoid]

I think he is a blue collard guy. So what if hes rich, money doesnt or at least, shouldnt change you. Some of you keep saying to stop looking like a regular person ( but in different terms) but he IS a regular person. Paris Hilton is a regular person. George Bush is a regular person. Money or a job doesnt change who you are and how you grew up. Look at me, i recently got rich ( my family did, not me directly) but i still act/look the same.

[Professor S]

The whole US Government is corrupt. I'm leaving it at that.

I'm sorry, but I'll return to this thread to ask one simple question:

Exactly what the hell does that have to do with anything we're talking about?

[Dylflon]

On the topic of Michael more and being blue collar, I'd like to quote some very insightful words written by Kevin Smith for the movie Clerks.

Title doesn't dictate behaviour.

I believe this is very true. Michael Moore was a blue collar guy before he was rich. Why should he change now that he has money.

I still like Bowling for Columbine even though he does mess around with details and edits the crap out of some things, there's a lot of truth to what he has to say...usually.

Strangler, I know you hate the guy but Michael Moore does have a lot of good things to say. I started reading one of his books, "Dude, Where's My Country" and he seems to have a lot of good questions to ask as well. I didn't read past the first couple chapters considering that everything after those chapters is opinion based. He does source everything he writes and points out a lot of things that made me go, "what the crap!" (directed at the actions of the government around the time of 9/11).

I don't agree with his lying but you all seem to go along with one of the biggest forms of media that leaves out the truth. The news. Mainly CNN. All you guys are seeing is the American spin on everything in Iraq. Thy leave almost everything out that would make the american troops look bad. The news is supposed to portray what's happening in our world but it's failing to do so recently. I see more of what's happening because I have a lot of news sources (including Al Jazeera, BBC, CBC and a couple of rogue websites that take sources from all over). Why is nobody getting pissed off at the news. I'm pissed off at the news. Hundreds of civilians are being shot needlessly over there. Where's the coverage on that? You don't see it. Instead you see the footage of the soldiers giving food packages to Iraqis that plays all day long.

There's something wrong when a news station is biased. Then you really aren't getting the truth. Maybe you guys should care about that instead of some fat guy who has an opinion about something.

[Professor S]

I don't agree with his lying but you all seem to go along with one of the biggest forms of media that leaves out the truth. The news. Mainly CNN. All you guys are seeing is the American spin on everything in Iraq. Thy leave almost everything out that would make the american troops look bad. The news is supposed to portray what's happening in our world but it's failing to do so recently. I see more of what's happening because I have a lot of news sources (including Al Jazeera, BBC, CBC and a couple of rogue websites that take sources from all over). Why is nobody getting pissed off at the news. I'm pissed off at the news. Hundreds of civilians are being shot needlessly over there. Where's the coverage on that? You don't see it. Instead you see the footage of the soldiers giving food packages to Iraqis that plays all day long.

There's something wrong when a news station is biased. Then you really aren't getting the truth. Maybe you guys should care about that instead of some fat guy who has an opinion about something.

Exactly what American news organizations are you watching? I never see positive news about the war, even on FoxNews which is basically a Bush pulpit. All I ever see is arguments about whether or not the war is right and then body counts of American soldiers and Iraqi resistance (which aren't even Iraqi for the most part, but foreign insurgents).

Also, you are making claims that hundreds of innocent Iraqi's are being shot over in Iraq. Please provide a source for that information so that we can make a decision for ourselves on the credibility of that statement. And please leave Al Jazeera out of it, as even mentioning them as a "news" source when it comes to this conflict is out and out laughable since they openly supported a genocidal maniac during the military conflict. BBC and CBC are perfectly acceptable souces, though.

Who knows, you might actually change my mind if I can see it for myself, much like you changed my mind about Halliburton.

As for Michael Moore, I still don't see how anyone can respect a man or take a man seriously whose life is based on deception and manipulation. The name of his production company is, or was when he made Canadian Bacon, PROPOGANDA FILMS for crimenies sake!

You agree with what he is saying, but much of what he is a saying is based on lies, so how can you trust anything he says? He portrays himself as a documentarian, but whenever his "facts" are challenged he claims to be a comedian and is therefore not responsible for the massive innaccuracies in his work (see the Lou Dobbs of CNN interview from the Wallstreet Journal article) Once the pandora's box is opened, you can't close it. Once you are proven to be a liar and a SEVERE capitalist in socialist clothing and its exposed that you are a hypocrit in every facet of your life, how can you expect to ever be taken seriously again?

Evidently Michael Moore has figured out how and is making himself disgustingly rich in the process. You are being worked and manipulated by him. He is a fraud and a leech and is preying on liberal sympathies to make himself into what he claims to hate about America. Michael Moore doesn't hate America, he loves America because its Americans who fall for his absolute bull**** and shell out millions to see his like minded, back patting rubbish.

He is a con-artist... and you are the mark.

Ok, now The Strangler really has left the building... unless Dyflon posts some evidence for the Iraqi's being murdered by US soldiers which I really want to see (and no, I'm not being a smartass, I really would like to see it:D)

[Dylflon]

I probably should have posted this earlier. This site is really leftist but it has a comprehensive database on how, when and where civilians have died due to military intervention. Make sure you click the database link below the total death toll.

Iraqi Body Count (http://www.iraqbodycount.net/)

[Typhoid]

Strangler, we Get CNN and pretty much all of the American news channels here, so i think we was generally referring to them.

And of course the news is going to be biased and show only good things in Iraq, you know why, because the news is controlled by the government, Oh, and whats this an election is coming up soon. So of curse Bush wouldnt want bad media in Iraq because it was his idea to do what they are doing, and if people see innocent people dying, their opinions might change of him. IMO.

[Professor S]

Strangler, we Get CNN and pretty much all of the American news channels here, so i think we was generally referring to them.

And of course the news is going to be biased and show only good things in Iraq, you know why, because the news is controlled by the government, Oh, and whats this an election is coming up soon. So of curse Bush wouldnt want bad media in Iraq because it was his idea to do what they are doing, and if people see innocent people dying, their opinions might change of him. IMO.

Sarcasm really doesn't register with you, does it. My point was that the US media ISN'T positive about the war... AT ALL. Even FoxNews is skeptical about the outcome. Maybe they are less negative than CBC or the BBC, but being less negative doesn't make you positive.

Dyflon, let me check out the site you posted and get my feedback to you soon.

[Bond]

And of course the news is going to be biased and show only good things in Iraq, you know why, because the news is controlled by the government
I fear for the future of Canada.

[Typhoid]

I fear for the future of Canada.


Why, im not the one running the country, and i assure you, not everyone is as stupidly opinionated as myself :D :D


Oh, and Strangler, sorry, im not able to read sarcasm in text. I kind of have to have a hint you know, like a reminder or something. I think i might be the only one here not able to read sarcasm over the internet. Man i gotta work on my internet sarcasm detecting skills.




LOL...BBC?....were not British you know.... :p

[Bond]

Really? Thanks... I feel much better now. :)

[Professor S]

This includes civilian deaths resulting from the breakdown in law and order, and deaths due to inadequate health care or sanitation.

While being unfortunate this is not exactly civilians getting shot now, is it?

Also, when reading the actual Targets from the attacks that they have added to their body count, they are including all terrorist attacks from insurgents against allied forces, Iraqi politicians and Iraqi civilians. Many of these deaths that are reported don't even involve the US military in any way at all.

This is their excuse for doing this:


In the current occupation phase the database includes all deaths which the Occupying Authority has a binding responsibility to prevent under the Geneva Conventions and Hague Regulations.

That along with the first quote basically makes the US military responsible for nearly any death that even remotely has a connection to the US's presence in Iraq.

Also, the Geneva Convention and Hague Reguations are extremely dated especially when it comes to acts of terrorism. Back when these rules were written, people didn't drive car bombs up to mosques. The rules were written to prevent indirectly or directly intentional abuse by an occupying power, and had no precedence for warfare taken to the populace.

But for the purposes of this argument, I'm going to give them all to you. Every single civilian death that is even remotely connected to the US occupation. In fact, I'll even give you an even 15,000 deaths this year, instead of the 11,317 that the website you posted as the MAX.

So that makes the score as follows:

US Military: 15,000 civilian deaths a year

Saddam's Iraq: 50,000 civilian deaths a year*

Wow, looks like the US military saved 35,000 civilan lives this year. Thank for the support Dyflon ;) :D

*based on reported 1.5 million Iraqi civilians killed over Saddam's 30 year reign as Iraq's ruler. This also does not include the hundreds of thousands of Iranians killed during the 10 year war in the 1980's that was a result of Saddam's aggression.

[Dylflon]

S**t. I wasn't arguing anything with you. You asked for a source and I provided one. I'm not saying people never died when Saddam was in power.

But people are still dying due to the occupation.

As you said being less negative doesn't make you positive.

[Typhoid]

Hey Hey, Strangler, Dylflon, i have a pic for both of you.


http://www.ncaabbs.com/funnies/general/domesticthug.jpg
















jk...carry on with your little internet tussle for power. ;)

[Dylflon]

...for me? You shouldn't have. Mainly because you're a lot worse than I am. Onwards ho, Captain Hypocrite!

[Professor S]

S**t. I wasn't arguing anything with you. You asked for a source and I provided one. I'm not saying people never died when Saddam was in power.

But people are still dying due to the occupation.

As you said

Oooooooh, Dyflon.. That was a good one. That stung a little. Throwing someone's words back in your face sounds like something I would do. Excellent job, young Padawan...

Too bad you have fallen to the Darkside ;) :D

[Typhoid]

haha, Strangler, + reps for the star wars thing.

[Jonbo298]

Too bad you have fallen to the Darkside ;) :D

:shakehead

[Professor S]

Jeez Jonbo, have a little fun. If you notice, there were two emoticons making a subtle hint that I was kidding around.

But taking Dyflon's comments seriously for a moment...

I can see where he's coming from. He is upset that anyone is dying because the US is involved in their country, whether or not the US presence is actually sparing tens of thousands of lives in just this year alone. Its an idealist view to be certain, but I would rather have someone care too much than not care at all.

I do care that there are innocent people that are being killed in Iraq, where many here doubt it or not. I just look at it differently than many of you and while the prisoners beaten to death and civilians that have been killed in crossfire make me cringe, I also find solace in the numbers that I posted earlier.

On average over 35,000 Iraqi civilians and innocents did not die this year because Saddam Hussein is gone.

Think about that. 35,000 Iraqi civilians are still alive today because of the United States involvement in Iraq. Take away the singular examples of abuse, the terrorism and day to day fight and just think about those numbers. Thirty Five Thousand...

Now is the US perfect in what they have done? Hell no. The abuse has to stop not only because it is morally and legally reprehensible, but because we are the most powerful nation in the the world, and even if other nations don't want to admit it, they look up to us. If we cannot hold it together and set an example, who will they look to? Especially when we are trying to install a democracy in a land that is very hesitant of democracy to begin with. There aren't enough troops to police the area considering the amount of insurgents crossing the borders everyday and we haven't been able to organize enough of the neighboring countries to help in policing their own borders. Finally, even though I loathe to admit it due to their massive corruption and greed, we need to get the UN involved and involved heavily to lend international credibility but more importantly to help gain the trust of the people we are trying to help.

And yes, all of these areas the US is struggling with and need to improve ASAP, but in the end:

35,000 Iraqi's who would have been dead are now still alive because of US involvement in Iraq. 35,000 families still have husbands, wives and/or children because of the US involvement in Iraq. 35,000 people now still have hope due to US involvement in Iraq.

To me, this trumps any negative you could possibly present.

[Typhoid]

but because we are the most powerful nation in the the world, and even if other nations don't want to admit it, they look up to us.



i dont want to start a flame war here, but exactly how would you know that they look up to you? Do you watch any news or anything thats NOT from America? most other countries hate america. And dont get all " but why would they weve helped so many of them" on me.

Yes i will be the first non-american to admit that the U.S.A has helped out other countries, but sometimes they also act like the worlds police force, and act like, plain old big bullies.

They feel ( generally) that every conflict is their problem. And I know for a fact that Bush is trying to change our laws. Sure you can call it "influencing" but hes seemingly trying to rule another country though hes not in power.



And one note here, i think giving Saddam back is a horrible mistake. He will be back in power, soon after arriving. Do you really think hes going to an Iraqi prison? He has so many people on the inside that love him and warship him. Yes he killed his own people, so did Hitler, Germans still respected him during the war.

[Professor S]

Typhoid, there is a difference between respect and fear. From all reports from those that lived inside and outsiders who observed, no one really respected Hussein, or I should correct that and say very few respected him. They feared him. He killed 50,000 people a year. Husbands dissappeared overnight and never returned and it went on for 30 years.

Those that actaully supported him are Bathist, and they make up a vast minority of Iraqis, and the only reason they supported him was because he didn't kill them on a whim and favored them above all others.

As for Saddam being return to Iraq, he might be but he will return as a prisoner of the United States. Saddam might be tried in Iraq, but he will be held as a prisoner of the United States. I guarantee it. No one in the US is stupid enough to hand him over to anyone else while he's still breathing.

[Bond]

i dont want to start a flame war here, but exactly how would you know that they look up to you?
Because we are the leader of the free world and most people would rather be free than be enslaved?

most other countries hate america.
That's a good mass generalization.

Yes i will be the first non-american to admit that the U.S.A has helped out other countries
You're not the first... you're among millions.

And since you still don't understand this:

they're - They're going over to the house.
there - The house is over there.
their - Is that their house?

[Typhoid]

Thast what ( im pretty sure) Bush said, is that he is handing over Saddam to be held captive in an Iraqi prison, as he is a citizen of there.

I'll look for a quote, but there is a chance i am misinformed.

And dont say ( this is directed at anyone) say i am misinformed without proof please, that really wrinkles my rug..



Bond thanks for the grammar tip, but i dont know what you were trying to correct, because i said none of those forms of the word "there" "their" or "they're", you must have forgot to edit it in.


And i even said it was a generalization.

And im not American, and i dont want to be, yet i am in "the free world", strange huh? ;)

[Bond]

"They feel ( generally) that every conflict is there problem."

[Dylflon]

We need to bring all of the world leaders together to create some sort of superforce to run the world together and make it a better place. We'd elect leaders and they'd all work together to run the planet. It'd be like the UN but way better. That way, we could institute the disarming of nuclear weapons, create a world currency and do other things that would benefit the planet and make the world a better place.

I know this is some crazy dream. But just imagine.


There will be no peace until humans come together as a people.



But...on the subject of world powers, America isn't the worst world power there has been. It really could be worse. While I don't agree with everything the country does, it's not doing a terrible job...for the most part. I still strongly disagree with the patriot act. *shudder* Seriously, that's the first step to our world becomming like the world in the book "1984".

But I'm wildly off topic now...