Nintendo: Arrogance or something else?

[thatmariolover]

I think we would have been embarrassed to do what our competitors are currently doing [motion controls]... So, all I can tell you is that we will innovate. We will provide something new. Something that the consumer and the industry will look at and say, 'Wow, I didn't see that coming.'

Only geeks and otaku [want more storage].

As far as the Wii is concerned, we have not found a significant reason to make it HD-compatible at this time.

As for when digital will overtake packaged goods, our view is that is well into the future.

GI: As far as Virtual Console pricing how it breaks down in Europe, Japan, and here, it seems most expensive in the U.S. when you check exchange rates…

Kaplan: Do you drink lattes?

GI: Yeah.

Kaplan: How much do you spend on lattes?

GI: I spend a lot.

Kaplan: There you go. This is something that lasts forever.

Customers do not want online games.

These quips used to be funny, but they just underscore the arrogance that seems to have become core to Nintendo as a company of late. And I'm sure there are quite a few I've missed (feel free to add them).

Nintendo snubs every company to release a product that does something theirs doesn't (and the feature(s) is/are dismissed as superfluous). They categorize their markets as hardcore and mainstream - which as far as I can tell is code for informed and uninformed - and then market to the mainstream because there's more revenue. Granted, if can sell your product that's great. Just not to the extent of alienating the same people who got you where you are. If you look at their press releases during the N64 and Cube generations, Nintendo was a bit more reserved. They (retrospectively) talked about the failures of the company and how the Cube (and then eventually the Wii) would be better. But they've taken the wrong idea and focused solely on sales instead of making a quality product. They’ve focused on a unique function (motion control) to the exclusion of every other good idea that the other major manufacturers implemented in their products. When called on it, they offer an anecdote, make a sweeping generalization of what people don't want, or dissemble to the point that you don't know what they said.

Let’s look at a few evolutionary advancements in gaming over the last 10 years that Nintendo has ignored.

Online Gaming:
Thanks to Xbox Live (for the most part), online gaming is huge. It's now grown to the point it can be broken down into four main parts: Avatar, Multiplayer, Achievements, and Downloadable Content. What has Nintendo done for online gaming? Wii Friend Codes, meaning you're a number instead of a name. You can have a Mii (avatar), but you can't find your friends Mii, you have to enter their friends code after contacting them in a more traditional method. Achievements? Nada. Downloadable Content? Without mass storage that's pretty tough.

The move to HD:
Yes, yes, it might be coming. The Wii HD. Too bad Nintendo was so slow to add this. You know, considering how dated the tech is in the Wii (and subsequently how cheap it is), they could have at least sprung for a little more video memory for HD output. Honestly, emulating the Wii is getting to the point that it will be the better option for HD gaming before long.

Mass storage:
The ability to use SD cards is laughable, and came after years of protest. During which time Nintendo simply wrote off mass storage as something nobody would want except 'geeks and otaku' (http://bit.ly/a75k0p). Nintendo considers themselves so accepted by the mainstream that they can insult the very people (Geeks and Otaku) that have been padding their wallet for the last 20 years? I don't think so. Mass storage is perfectly possible on the Wii as demonstrated by the excellent homebrew scene.

Nintendo's history demonstrates that they want nothing to do with an idea if it's been done by a competitor in the last five years - so they lag behind in every aspect but the one they focused on for their current product. This time around, motion controllers. Next up, 3D on the DS – how much do you want to bet they’ll forget something critical while they tout the 3D screens and charge out of the nose for it while using second rate tech to power it. If Nintendo doesn't start reacting to their market as well as try to anticipate it, their future history will be unfortunately cyclical.

[Typhoid]

Well put thread.

Also, I completely forgot that Nintendo released the Virtual Boy in 95.
The horrible, horrible failure of a machine.

And I also just realized that the GC controllers are basically Virtual Boy controllers minus the thumb sticks.

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/6/61/Virtual_Boy_controller.jpg/220px-Virtual_Boy_controller.jpg

[uber_paddler]

Meh, it's just posturing, everyone does it. Have you seen the latest Sony Move ad (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w0puP8nrIU8)? When it comes down to it the shareholders love this kind of shit.

Plus, most of that is kinda correct. Yeah, they don't have a reason to release an HD system, they're selling the current ones like hotcakes. Probably better than hotcakes, actually. Also, no, most people don't need extra storage. Geeks and otaku probably make up a larger percentage of those that do need more. Most of the consumers who buy a Wii probably don't give a damn about online games, either.

Not saying I necessarily think it's ok, and I'm not saying I don't think Nintendo should be more open to the technology of others. But ultimately they have the right to be arrogant, 'cause they're crushing the competition. From a non-gamers perspective it makes sense. As a gamer their reluctance to innovate beyond their one key concept every generation annoys me, yes.

[Xantar]

What's that? Oh, a rehash of the same conversation we've been having for the past four years? Wake me up if somebody says anything new.

[Typhoid]

What's that? Oh, a rehash of the same conversation we've been having for the past four years? Wake me up if somebody says anything new.

Sleep Beiber, sleep.


they're selling the current ones like hotcakes. Probably better than hotcakes, actually. Also, no, most people don't need extra storage. Geeks and otaku probably make up a larger percentage of those that do need more.


I'd say storage is a nice thing. With PS3 or 360 I can put my music on there, and sub it into certain games in place of the terrible music in the game. Its not a deal breaker or anything, it's just a nice bonus feature, to be able to use your console as sort of an 'everything box'.

Also:

Most of the consumers don't give a damn about online games, either.

I highly disagree with this, solely based on the immense success of online gaming. Nothing more really needs to be said. If you want to see a modern day revolt, take away the online capability from everyone.

[thatmariolover]

What's that? Oh, a rehash of the same conversation we've been having for the past four years? Wake me up if somebody says anything new.

Maybe we've been having two different conversations, then.

The base arguements might remain the same but there are important differences. Specifically I'm taking quotes from this past generation to drive the point home. I'm also on the other side of the debate this time (though I've been on the fence for a while). I posed it as a question, and then presented my own answer. Feel free to do the same.

[uber_paddler]

I highly disagree with this, solely based on the immense success of online gaming. Nothing more really needs to be said. If you want to see a modern day revolt, take away the online capability from everyone.

I should, perhaps, have been more specific there. I was speaking purely of the Wii audience when I said that. Online gaming is, in general, awesome. I enjoy the hell out of it. I don't think most of the people who buy a Wii care about it at all, though.

[Typhoid]

I should, perhaps, have been more specific there. I was speaking purely of the Wii audience when I said that. Online gaming is, in general, awesome. I enjoy the hell out of it. I don't think most of the people who buy a Wii care about it at all, though.

Oh, okay.
Touche.
Thanks for clearing that up, because if you're solely talking about Wii people, then I completely agree.

[KillerGremlin]

...and Xantar takes a whiff of his own fart while adjusting his monocle.

Bravo.

http://www.colectiva.tv/wordpress/wp-content/uploads/2009/07/lkzyz89efm_clap.gif

[Xantar]

Maybe we've been having two different conversations, then.

The base arguements might remain the same but there are important differences. Specifically I'm taking quotes from this past generation to drive the point home. I'm also on the other side of the debate this time (though I've been on the fence for a while). I posed it as a question, and then presented my own answer. Feel free to do the same.

Maybe this thread is different in some hair splittingly minor way from all the other kvetching about Nintendo, but I don't really see it. And I don't care if you're on the "other" side. I've never assumed you're on any "side" at all. Nor should you assume I'm on any particular "side" either.

Look, you know I like and respect you. But I'm telling you honestly that I don't see any difference between this thread and about a dozen other threads all over GT and the Internet. And it's not that I agree or disagree with anything you're saying. It's just that I don't see anything new here. Nor do I see any potential for anybody here to say anything I couldn't have predicted them saying. I've read everything so far and see no reason to continue.

So this time you have quotes? So what? Corporate PR often sounds like jackassery. Not to mention it's often outright lies. Remember that time Nintendo claimed they weren't lowering thr price of the GameCube about three days before they lowered the price of the GameCube? As Moogle pointed out, public statements are worthless.

So once I cut out all the PR lying, I'm left with the same old complaints about Nintendo not having an online system, not using HD, being unnecessarily restrictive and so on. And it's not that they're wrong. They're just the exact same thing we've been talking about for four years. Explain to me why I should bother continuing.

[thatmariolover]

...and Xantar takes a whiff of his own fart while adjusting his monocle.

Bravo.

http://www.colectiva.tv/wordpress/wp-content/uploads/2009/07/lkzyz89efm_clap.gif

Well, to him this argument has been beaten to death, so I can hardly blame him. To us, GT has only recently started having conversations and debates again. I think we stopped talking about stuff because we assumed we knew how everybody felt about most things. But the truth is, we're all getting older and our opinions are clearly changing as well. And Nintendo has said a lot more in recent years now that they've been put on the pedestal.

Regardless, that picture is enormously satisfying all by itself.

Maybe this thread is different in some hair splittingly minor way from all the other kvetching about Nintendo, but I don't really see it. And I don't care if you're on the "other" side. I've never assumed you're on any "side" at all. Nor should you assume I'm on any particular "side" either.

Look, you know I like and respect you. But I'm telling you honestly that I don't see any difference between this thread and about a dozen other threads all over GT and the Internet. And it's not that I agree or disagree with anything you're saying. It's just that I don't see anything new here. Nor do I see any potential for anybody here to say anything I couldn't have predicted them saying. I've read everything so far and see no reason to continue.

So this time you have quotes? So what? Corporate PR often sounds like jackassery. Not to mention it's often outright lies. Remember that time Nintendo claimed they weren't lowering thr price of the GameCube about three days before they lowered the price of the GameCube? As Moogle pointed out, public statements are worthless.

So once I cut out all the PR lying, I'm left with the same old complaints about Nintendo not having an online system, not using HD, being unnecessarily restrictive and so on. And it's not that they're wrong. They're just the exact same thing we've been talking about for four years. Explain to me why I should bother continuing.

Don't continue the conversation if you don't want to participate. Start one you do want to participate in. I'm not offended at all. But I want to be convinced I'm either wrong, or that there's a really good reason for disagreeing. If this is the way they're conducting business, what do you want to change? Is it a Japanese business ego? Is it just cultural differences? Is it money? What is it? Regardless, your opinion is neither unanticipated or ill received. I apparently just want to hear it one more time.

[Typhoid]

Xantar, nobody's asking you to participate in this thread if you see no point in the conversation at hand.
If you're not interested in the topic, then stop posting about it.
Simple problem, simple solution.

Regardless, that picture is enormously satisfying all by itself.

So very, very much agreed.

[KillerGremlin]

Despite my poking fun I kind of see where Xantar is coming from.

I think the real question is why is the Wii doing so good and is the future of gaming the "serious person's" console or more Wii-oriented gaming and is gaming's future even on the console or on gadgets that appeal to morons like the iTampon.

That's my question.

[thatmariolover]

Despite my poking fun I kind of see where Xantar is coming from.

I think the real question is why is the Wii doing so good and is the future of gaming the "serious person's" console or more Wii-oriented gaming and is gaming's future even on the console or on gadgets that appeal to morons like the iTampon.

That's my question.

Your question poses another problem I have. Nintendo definitely underestimates the Android/App Store and the iPhone/iPod Touch/iPad and any other multifunction device where gaming is starting to grow. Then again, I think you do too.

The iPad may have a terrible name and a few definite shortcomings, but it also fills a gap that encroaches on the handheld market to a degree (and the iPod Touch even more so). Why would I buy a $200 DSi XL when I can spend $300 and get an iPod Touch? It does a lot more, and if I jailbreak it (no reason not to without a phone contract) I can even emulate Nintendo's back library on the go.

60% of the apps on the iPad are games. Some of them serious. And as the iPad is charging more of a premium on apps, big name developers will be less shy about bringing their games to it.

Regardless of how much you like the iPad, it sold 300,000+ units on the first day. It (and other tablets like it) is going to be around for a while.

[manasecret]

Despite their public blustering, I believe Nintendo will slowly incorporate more and more of what the competition has made popular. But I do mean slowly.

Just remember how they felt about CDs back with the N64. Then they decided to go DVD with GCN, but oh wait! It's a GD-ROM bitches! Don't even bother asking what the G stands for, it stands for GREAT. As in GREAT DICK-ROM YOUR MOM.

Then remember how they would never ever incorporate online gaming. Well, along comes the Wii and there they have it. But oh wait, you want it to be a simple and pleasurable experience?? Sorry, pedos are everywhere. You've heard about the pope right?

Then comes HD gaming. Wii does HD, but it doesn't do super HD like all the others. What, you want super HD? May I refer you to our GD-ROM?

So, yeah, they're arrogant. Sometimes it works for them (NES, SNES, Wii, GameBoys, DS), sometimes it doesn't (all the others). I think overall, though, they win big-time.

And TML, going back to your old DS topic competing with Apple products, I think you and many others I've read are way over-estimating how much of the market the i devices will snag. Without dedicated game controls, the iPods will never make much of a dent on the handheld market. Also, may I refer you to the Sega Game Gear, Sony PSP, and that always-popular N-Gage?

[uber_paddler]

Hate to break it to you, but I'm pretty sure the "G" stands for Gamecube.

[thatmariolover]

And TML, going back to your old DS topic competing with Apple products, I think you and many others I've read are way over-estimating how much of the market the i devices will snag. Without dedicated game controls, the iPods will never make much of a dent on the handheld market. Also, may I refer you to the Sega Game Gear, Sony PSP, and that always-popular N-Gage?

These devices are getting cheaper and cheaper and more and more capable. They're also generally priced more reasonably than Nintendo's handhelds (relative to the hardware costs). And as locked as they can be, they're far more open than any product Nintendo releases in terms of features.

During Apple's press conference today they presented their new online gaming network that will power the iPhone. You'll be able to invite contacts or use the matchmaking service. They'll have achievements and leaderboards as well. Plus with network connectivity out of the way (Wifi or 3G) they have a partial advantage of where the device can be used over Nintendo.

No it is not a 1:1 overlap but it's moving quickly in that direction.

http://gizmodo.com/5512637/iphone-40s-game-center-matchmaking-leaderboards-and-achievements

[manasecret]

Hate to break it to you, but I'm pretty sure the "G" stands for Gamecube.

Actually I fucked up that joke. They were just mini-DVDs on the GCN. The Dreamcast used GD-ROMs. The spirit of the joke still works......

[manasecret]

These devices are getting cheaper and cheaper and more and more capable. They're also generally priced more reasonably than Nintendo's handhelds. And as locked as they can be, they're far more open than any product Nintendo releases in terms of features.

During Apple's press conference today they presented their new online gaming network that will power the iPhone. You'll be able to invite contacts or use the matchmaking service. They'll have achievements and leaderboards as well. Plus with network connectivity out of the way (Wifi or 3G) they have a partial advantage of where the device can be used over Nintendo.

No it is not a 1:1 overlap but it's moving quickly in that direction.

http://gizmodo.com/5512637/iphone-40s-game-center-matchmaking-leaderboards-and-achievements

Again, way overestimating. I repeat, until the iPods of the world have dedicated gaming controls, they will not make a serious dent in Nintendo's market share.

I'll break my opinion down a little more.

Cheapness doesn't matter, since the DS is priced at a cheap enough point where it doesn't matter.

Power doesn't matter. It has never mattered in the handheld world. This is nothing new.

Open nature doesn't matter. Look at the PC. It doesn't beat all other consoles, despite being quite open.

Gaming network doesn't matter. PSP I'm pretty sure has one. The X360 and PS3 have great ones. The PC has the ultimate open gaming network. The Wii and DS still win.

All that shit doesn't matter. They're nice, but they're not deal breakers. The games in the end, are the only thing that matter. Nintendo has them, and in my opinion, in large part it's because the DS has dedicated gaming controls and that they don't bother doing much of the other crap (albeit nice crap), and instead focus on the games. It's a handheld gaming device, and that's about it. Simple and does what you want it to.

Again, reiterating from that last topic about this, I'm not saying the DS and iPods can't coexist happily. I'm just saying that Nintendo has little to worry about when it comes to Apple, and for good reason.

[thatmariolover]

Again, way overestimating. I repeat, until the iPods of the world have dedicated gaming controls, they will not make a serious dent in Nintendo's market share.

Apple just scored patents for gaming controller peripherals that just plug onto the dongle on iPhones and iPods.

http://www.patentlyapple.com/patently-apple/2010/04/whoa-apple-reveals-amazing-gaming-accessories-in-the-works.html

Edit: Better link

[manasecret]

Apple just scored patents for gaming controller peripherals that just plug onto the dongle on iPhones and iPods.

http://www.patentlyapple.com/patently-apple/2010/04/whoa-apple-reveals-amazing-gaming-accessories-in-the-works.html

Edit: Better link

That's a good start. Let's see if anything comes of it.

[thatmariolover]

Cheapness doesn't matter, since the DS is priced at a cheap enough point where it doesn't matter.

Power doesn't matter. It has never mattered in the handheld world. This is nothing new.

[WALL OF TEXT]

I disagree with a few points, but I think it’s a difference in perception more than anything else. Cheapness and power don’t matter as much, except the two can equate to value when competition emerges.

This isn’t about Apple. This is about the whole handheld electronic market changing. Apple’s just the easiest example. But the truth is, we’re entering into a completely new era of handheld computing. Batteries are becoming more efficient, chipsets are shrinking into the nano-scale exponentially, and it’s becoming feasible for relatively tiny companies to mass produce a capable product. We have handheld processors with more power than a Dreamcast (nigh on reaching Gamecube/Xbox) abilities. These small scale processors are getting faster and more power efficient at a quicker pace than their console counterparts.

It’s getting so cheap to integrate features into mobile devices that all we’ll have is portable multimedia machines. Some will be better at games than others, certainly Nintendo and Sony will focus on that. Even Microsoft plans to extend Xbox Live service to the Zune, which will be their gaming handheld/media device (Zune already has a Tegra chip inside for graphics, the iPhone 3GS can push 28 million polys per second with full OpenGL 2.0 support and newer Snapdragon (mobile) GPU’s push more than 90 million polygons per second).

When Nintendo is selling their fourth revision to the ORIGINAL DS hardware (yes, they’ve already done three – each released with a different gimmick except the DS Lite to keep the price up) for $200 vs. a $300 iPod touch that has its own app store that does a lot more than just games, I think value will matter. Granted, the 3DS is coming (sometime). We’ll see more of that at E3. Apple’s next hardware refresh is looking to be sometime this summer/fall.

As for the open nature not mattering, it hasn’t mattered because most users haven’t been exposed to it on a handheld device. With reference to set-top gaming (PC/consoles), we’ve seen a huge blending of PC and console capabilities. Aside from the price difference, consoles have had the advantage of instantly playing vs. installing as well as being markedly cheaper for a quality gaming machine. Neither of these is true in the comparison between Nintendo and the upcoming handheld market challengers.

Just in the last generation we’ve gotten tons of PC specific functionality implemented in consoles. HD gaming, Netflix, Pandora, and Emulation of back catalogues just to name a few. Look a little further back and you saw Xbox live spring up to support online gaming, something that was effectively PC only for ages. There will be a demand for more.

The Wii and DS ‘win’ (in terms of sales) because they appeal to the mainstream market and not the main gaming market Nintendo had been targeting. This will backfire when the mainstream market has something as mainstream as a PMP in their face that outperforms their dedicated gaming handheld at gaming and still does a lot more. I really think Nintendo will gradually lose their market share under those conditions. So all I’m really saying, is that they will be a threat only if Nintendo doesn’t adapt (as they’ve shown themselves extremely bad at adapting, I have doubts).

I own a DS and it has some real gems. But many of the games are as flippant as any free app on the App Store, and there are App Store games that rival anything on the DS even without physical controls (I’ve played both, I’m really not making this up). So when developers can get a better cut on the App Store than they do from Nintendo, have a huge install base with their credit cards programmed into the app store, have a much bigger and more functional touch screen, and no need to worry about physical media or space limitations, I think there will be some developer exclusivity losses.

Time will tell, and I might be jumping the gun. Anyway, that’s why I feel how I feel.

[/WALL OF TEXT]

Easily flagged the wall of text, feel free to pretend it doesn't exist so I don't kill the thread ;)

[KillerGremlin]

Your question poses another problem I have. Nintendo definitely underestimates the Android/App Store and the iPhone/iPod Touch/iPad and any other multifunction device where gaming is starting to grow. Then again, I think you do too.

I don't underestimate the iPad, I just think morons buy it.

Also, with the need for a Cellphone/MP3 player, and the way Cellphone/MP3 players now have games on them, and these games are the same simple-minded bullshit titles that have made the Wii such a hit this generation amongst morons, I suspect we will see a dramatic change in the direction of handheld gaming in the future. Well, gaming in general.

I personally think this generation took gaming down a peg.

[Angrist]

Nintendo has often hired some stupid people. Perrin Kaplan for example. People who don't know the industry, and try too hard to promote/defend Nintendo. Reggie borders on that.

Luckily their PR isn't 1/10 as bad as Sony's. :D

As for not reacting to trends very fast:
At the moment they don't really have to, but I do think they realize they'll need to in the future. Already we can see careful steps in the right direction.
- More games have online multiplayer now, some don't even require friend codes.
- They experimented with achievements ('stamps') in WiiSort.
- The Wii has tons of fun online channels... It just lacks a good friend system for them.
- They admit the pressure the Zelda team feels from Monster Hunter 3. I suspect that the Wii has shown them that graphics DO matter for a big clunk of the market. Heck, they're even talking about 3D for the next handheld.
- The SD storage for Wii is a good step in the storage direction.
- They might be ahead of their time with wanting people to download a (VC/WW) game each time they play it. It would work with a better interface and faster internet. :)

I have good faith that their next console will incorporate almost all features that this thread discusses. Maybe not 100% perfect, but enough to satisfy the geeks.

[Xantar]

I personally think this generation took gaming down a peg.

Really? How so? Did you not have enough games to enjoy? Was Resident Evil 5, Devil May Cry 4, Alan Wake, Mass Effect, Bioshock, Heavy Rain, Call of Duty: Modern Warfare, Super Mario Galaxy, Metroid Prime: Corruption, Grand Theft Auto 4, Final Fantasy XIII, Borderlands, Soul Calibur 4, Gears of War, Halo 3, Dragon Ago and about a dozen other games I'm not thinking of enough for you?

[KillerGremlin]

Really? How so? Did you not have enough games to enjoy? Was Resident Evil 5, Devil May Cry 4, Alan Wake, Mass Effect, Bioshock, Heavy Rain, Call of Duty: Modern Warfare, Super Mario Galaxy, Metroid Prime: Corruption, Grand Theft Auto 4, Final Fantasy XIII, Borderlands, Soul Calibur 4, Gears of War, Halo 3, Dragon Ago and about a dozen other games I'm not thinking of enough for you?

I'll remember it as: Generation Sequels.

I'm not just talking about the games, many of which are good if not great as you listed. I'm talking about technology trends this generation, the explosion of social media, the explosion of non-gaming business ventures popping up on consoles, the increase in gimmicks in way of gaming. There is also the dumbing down of online gaming for consoles and the abuse of DLC, and yeah I won't get off my PC-gaming high horse. And the cherry on top is that I do see gaming being removed from consoles and brought over to multimedia platforms like cell phones or iPads. Maybe that isn't a bad thing, but get off my lawn!

I'd think you, of all people, being a Nintendo fan and an old school one at that, would long for the nostalgia and kinda get at how I feel.

[Xantar]

I'd think you, of all people, being a Nintendo fan and an old school one at that, would long for the nostalgia and kinda get at how I feel.

What I get out of being a (busy, adult, trying to build a career) Nintendo fan is this: there are lots of games out there that I like. And they are reasonably priced. And ultimately I don't have enough time to play them all. This is good.

There are also lots of games being developed for other platforms. Some of those other platforms are high-end consoles and some of them are little mobile-media platforms and some are social networking sites. On the other hand, games that I like and want are still being made. I don't really care what other games are being released just as long as they don't affect my ability to play the games I want to play.

[Angrist]

Abuse of DLC is really a good point, but I don't have much issues with those other things.

This generation I got more Mario than in the previous 2 gens together. I get a few awesome Zeldas, I got a lot of other good stuff.
On the PC I got everything I wanted and more. At least, I will in a few months when Starcraft 2 is out.

I know there are huge amounts of shovelware and casual games, but I don't need to buy those, do I?