Reconciling the American Dream with the Least Among Us

[Bond]

Originally Posted by Professor S

The American Dream is not a myth. The fact is that most of the wealthy people in America are self-made/nouveau riche (came from relatively humble beginnings), and not a result of generational/aristocratic wealth. This is a myth pasted on to American society that was held over from European wealth structure and the writings of Marx and Engels, whose observations tended to be of Eurpean wealth structures. Also, most of the West was settled not by the rich, but by settlers looking to carve out their piece of the American Dream themselves. They took it upon themselves to take the US up on their ofer of land and tread into the great unknown seeking their fame and fortune. They are not to be derided, but celebrated for their sheer audacity.

I would agree with you here in that the percentage of the "wealthy" that are generational is much lower than the self made, but I suppose this might depend as to how precisely we define the term wealthy. I would say, however, that in some ways we have developed our own form of an aristocracy, but to a lesser degree than European nations. We have our Rockefellers and our Vanderbilts, although they are few. I view them more so as a natural by-product of wealth creation than anything else.

We have done more to try and create a culture of fairness over the last 50-80 years with continued and expanding social and wealth redistribution programs and the end result is that we are a culture that has never felt more helpless and unhappy, and as KG shows more and more of us believe that the American Dream is a myth that some people just will never attain.

I don't necessarily disagree with your belief in the American Dream, but how do you explain the fact that the prime determiner of what ones class will be is the class of their parents?

[Professor S]

Originally Posted by Bond

I don't necessarily disagree with your belief in the American Dream, but how do you explain the fact that the prime determiner of what ones class will be is the class of their parents?

My first response would be to not let the myth of the perfect blind anyone from seeing the good.

If the TRUE determiner of one's class are their parents 1) Black people would still be slaves (thats why equality under the law is so important) and 2) I would be a a member of the working poor right now. In my mind the real reason is that we've had a government has been telling people since the 1930's that they can't do it, and has taken steps to ensure that they can't in a misguided attempt to help.

I could cite examples from today's predominantly black inner city ghettos and disproportionate occurrences of single parent households being a result of 1920's - 1940's government policies rather than individual efforts all the way to the counter-productive tax system I described earlier to draconian eminent domain laws. If we want people to achieve, we cannot interfere with their efforts to do so AND then TAKE the results of their achievement when they overcome that interference. In such an environment discouragement would be the norm, not the exception.

Still, even with all of this interference and borderline abuse, America is still the first and best example of people being able to come from nothing and make a successful life on their own terms, whatever that may be. Also, immigrants still flock to out shores. Hell, we're building a damn wall to keep them out because they are fleeing a REAL aristocracy in Mexico, where if you were born with native blood you are essentially &%$@ed at birth.

To me its all about perspective.

[TheSlyMoogle]

Being the best example of a government that allows those in the lowest class to rise to the highest class still doesn't mean it's a good system.

Odds are none of you here have ever had to make the decision of eating dinner or putting gas in your car for work the next day because you just spent most of the money you had on rent. Or going 3 months without a haircut because you couldn't scrape enough cash out to pay for one.

Haha I think the best solution would be that everyone grows up poor as fuck. Problem solved.

[TheGame]

Can someone elaorate on what Prof is talking about when he says "If we want people to achieve, we cannot interfere with their efforts to do so AND then TAKE the results of their achievement when they overcome that interference."

What interference exists now that didn't exist 60-70years ago? And what is taken now that wasn't taken then?

[Professor S]

Originally Posted by TheSlyMoogle

Being the best example of a government that allows those in the lowest class to rise to the highest class still doesn't mean it's a good system.

By that logic you can say anything stinks. Its pure opinion with no qualification or comparison and while I disagree completely there is no point in challenging such a statement.

Odds are none of you here have ever had to make the decision of eating dinner or putting gas in your car for work the next day because you just spent most of the money you had on rent. Or going 3 months without a haircut because you couldn't scrape enough cash out to pay for one.

I can't say I've ever had to make the decision you've described, but I can say my family wasn't far from it at one point. What we didn't do was cry "woe is me" or blame a system for the problem. The only person responsible for an individual and their family is the individual, regardless of what politicians say or laws they pass. In the end it's up to you. Anything else is fantasy.

Haha I think the best solution would be that everyone grows up poor as fuck. Problem solved.

And what a wonderful world that would be... I 'm having a hard time relating to you on this topic. Your statements reflect the thought process of an extraordinarily negative person. I recommend reading the Tao te Ching http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tao_Te_Ching

I don't believe America is perfect in realizing its ideals, but perfection is a myth and chasing it is a dangerous fools game. It can get better, of course, but I've seen too much success in my life to believe the myth that it is a myth. For example, I work with Realtors, and most of them came from very humble beginnings and most either do not have college degrees or they got them later in life once they made their money. What they did have was the time and effort to get their license and master their craft and make their own best life. Does that mean every Realtor shares the same success? Absolutely not. WE are not all equal, we are only guaranteed that shot, not the results. Freedom to succeed also comes with the freedom to fail. I would hate to live in a world where no one ever failed. How boring and pointless would that be?

Buit again, if someone wants to believe they or others are trapped by some mysterious shadow web of wealth and power, they can go right ahead. They're one less person I have to compete with.

[TheSlyMoogle]

Originally Posted by Professor S

By that logic you can say anything stinks. Its pure opinion with no qualification or comparison and while I disagree completely there is no point in challenging such a statement.

What? That's bogus. Just because something has technically worked for the last few centuries doesn't mean it will continue to work, or that it actually works that well. If we tried every governmental system in existence for a period of time, and then our system worked the best, then yeah, that would be true. Just because we've lasted so long, doesn't mean it really is working to benefit anyone. That's like saying there are no need for new cars because the ones we have work well.

Originally Posted by Professor S

I can't say I've ever had to make the decision you've described, but I can say my family wasn't far from it at one point. What we didn't do was cry "woe is me" or blame a system for the problem. The only person responsible for an individual and their family is the individual, regardless of what politicians say or laws they pass. In the end it's up to you. Anything else is fantasy.

Neither did I, but that doesn't mean someone is a lesser individual because the did and it's ignorant to think that everyone had the same chances and control their own destiny. That's just an easy way out for you to blame the homeless person when they beg you for your change. Sure some of us make really bad decisions through life, but it's not the majority, and sometimes it's not a decision, it's just the way things have to be.

Originally Posted by Professor S

And what a wonderful world that would be... I 'm having a hard time relating to you on this topic. Your statements reflect the thought process of an extraordinarily negative person. I recommend reading the Tao te Ching http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tao_Te_Ching

That was a joke. Was hoping the "haha" in front would imply.

Originally Posted by Professor S

I don't believe America is perfect in realizing its ideals, but perfection is a myth and chasing it is a dangerous fools game. It can get better, of course, but I've seen too much success in my life to believe the myth that it is a myth. For example, I work with Realtors, and most of them came from very humble beginnings and most either do not have college degrees or they got them later in life once they made their money. What they did have was the time and effort to get their license and master their craft and make their own best life. Does that mean every Realtor shares the same success? Absolutely not. WE are not all equal, we are only guaranteed that shot, not the results. Freedom to succeed also comes with the freedom to fail. I would hate to live in a world where no one ever failed. How boring and pointless would that be?

You're right, it could get much better. It's also foolish to think that every problem with this country can be solved through hard work. If that was true then none of us would ever need to go to school to practice the things we enjoy. I mean look at me, I probably understand coding better than a lot of the people who are in the coding industry, but do I have a job? No because I can't afford a piece of paper. Amazing.

Originally Posted by Professor S

Buit again, if someone wants to believe they or others are trapped by some mysterious shadow web of wealth and power, they can go right ahead. They're one less person I have to compete with.

I see in this attitude more negativity than anything I've ever said. Protect what you have. That's the American Sentiment. Don't help others, strive to get as many materialistic things as possible, and strive to be better than everyone else. That's the goal.

Sometimes people fall down, and all they need is someone to pick them back up and help them walk again. The American Dream doesn't do that though, it walks over to them, pulls down it's large pair of pants, takes a huge shit, and uses a few Franklins to wipe, then burns them all while laughing.

Fuck the American dream.

[Professor S]

Originally Posted by TheSlyMoogle

What? That's bogus. Just because something has technically worked for the last few centuries doesn't mean it will continue to work, or that it actually works that well. If we tried every governmental system in existence for a period of time, and then our system worked the best, then yeah, that would be true. Just because we've lasted so long, doesn't mean it really is working to benefit anyone. That's like saying there are no need for new cars because the ones we have work well.

My comment had little to do with anything you just described. I simply don't think that a statement like "the best is not necessarily good" is one that anyone can discuss fairly or intelligently. It's pure opinion.

As for trying to make a governmental system work to right all perceived wrongs, well, that's been tried. An estimated 20 million people were slaughtered in the 20th century because of it. Power doesn't wax or wane, it just changes hands. Its much safer to have that power reasonably distributed among the multitudes than centralized in the few. The government is the few and always will be. Centralized power will always oppress. It is in it's nature.

Neither did I, but that doesn't mean someone is a lesser individual because the did and it's ignorant to think that everyone had the same chances and control their own destiny.

I never said anyone had the same opportunity, but I do contend everyone has the same control over their fate. No one is a puppet. No one, unless they choose to be.

That's just an easy way out for you to blame the homeless person when they beg you for your change. Sure some of us make really bad decisions through life, but it's not the majority, and sometimes it's not a decision, it's just the way things have to be.

Actually the majority have alcohol/drug problems and many have severe mental illness. There are very few American homeless that are of sound mind. Personally, I think this is an area that we could do much more with. One of my greatest complaints of the Reagan era was the removal of funds from mental asylums. I think there should be more sanitary and effective asylums in America to house, treat and train the homeless to make them more capable or at least keep the mentally ill of the street and safe.

As I said, America is not perfect. There is work to be done, but I also do not allow a few hundred thousand (some estimates as low as 150,000) homeless cancel out millions of success stories.

That was a joke. Was hoping the "haha" in front would imply.

You have to admit joke or no that statement holds some truth behind it (in your opinion). I chose to address the truth and not the joke. In any case, I still recommend the Tao. It changed my life and made me realize that I am not always in control and I cannot control others, and to allow myself to let go for my own benefit.

You're right, it could get much better. It's also foolish to think that every problem with this country can be solved through hard work.

Not all but most. Will you always succeed through hard work? No, but I dare say your odds increase drastically.

Truthfully, most people don't give up on the American Dream because they see "the writing on the wall". They give up because they're afraid that if they try they could fail, and they don't want to face that possibility. To me, failure is a blessing and a teachable moment. Edison said it best: "I have not failed. I've just found 10,000 ways that won't work."

If that was true then none of us would ever need to go to school to practice the things we enjoy. I mean look at me, I probably understand coding better than a lot of the people who are in the coding industry, but do I have a job? No because I can't afford a piece of paper. Amazing.

Life is about trial and error. I went back to school to become a teacher, but the bureaucracy was so intense that they told me I would have to go back and retake my entire undergraduate degree. I could not afford that and honestly thought it was ridiculous. I analyzed the problem, realized I was not in control of this outcome, and made a decision to change direction and find a new outcome.

Instead of getting my teaching degree, I decided to spend my loan/grant money on a TLT (teaching and learning with technology) certification instead and go after a career in corporate eduction. Now I run a small team of professional trainers and serve 30,000 Realtor members.

Was this the goal I started out with? No. Am I happy with my choices? Absolutely. And my success came to me after YEARS of hard work and suffer for 4 years in the worst job known to mankind. All of that led me to the place where I am now and I know only better things await me in the future because with each step back I will learn and then take 3 steps forward.

I see in this attitude more negativity than anything I've ever said. Protect what you have. That's the American Sentiment. Don't help others, strive to get as many materialistic things as possible, and strive to be better than everyone else. That's the goal.

You misunderstand me. I was trying to make a point. If I didn't want to help you I wouldn't have written everything I just did. The fact is until you see any possibility that you are in control of your own destiny (but not your starting point), no amount of help will assist you. You have the mentality of failure. No one can save you but yourself, and you will not make positive decision until you have a positive attitude.

Take your lack of a "piece of paper" for example. If you really wanted one you would have it. There has never been more assistance for education then now, and rates on loans are incredibly low and they defer payment until after you graduate. Judging by your attitude in this thread I would guess that you haven't gotten the funding because you don't think anything would matter anyway. You have convinced yourself you are fucked from birth, so therefore, why try? Its much easier to give up and blame the universe for our failings or some wealthy person who doesn't even know you much less work against you.

Sometimes people fall down, and all they need is someone to pick them back up and help them walk again. The American Dream doesn't do that though, it walks over to them, pulls down it's large pair of pants, takes a huge shit, and uses a few Franklins to wipe, then burns them all while laughing.

Fuck the American dream.

How has this attitude made your life better? Does your cynicism armor you against all the bad things in life, or continue them?

There is nothing anyone could do to help you if you keep this attitude. We could redistribute every cent in the world and you would still fail simply because you refuse to take any responsibility for your own condition. I don't say this out of malice, but because I like you and want to see you succeed, but if all you do is wait for someone or some government to save you... you'll be waiting a very long time...

You need to stop thinking about how unfair it all is. Recognize your situation. Analyze your options, and there are ALWAYS options, make a decision and MOVE.

"People create their own questions because they are afraid to look straight. All you have to do is look straight and see the road, and when you see it, don't sit looking at it - walk. " Ayn Rand

Also, my positivity doesn't completely come naturally. Very few people know this but in my early 20's I considered committing suicide. That's how alone and sad I was. That said, I made the decision that the status quo couldn't stand. I had to make a change. To this day I work at my success and happiness as much as I work at my job and my marriage.

[TheSlyMoogle]

Well I'm pretty sure we'll never complete the argument here with much resolution but I will go ahead and tell my story about college:

So I graduated 6th in my class in high school. I wasn't able to take AP Calc II due to my only opportunity to take AP Calc 1 was my last semester of High school. There were a total of 8 AP classes offered in my high school until our last year of school when 5 students in my class convinced our upper level math teacher to take a college class to allow her to teach Calc II. Anyway, the way it was supposed to work out I could take Calc I in my last semester and still be Tied with the other 5 students in my grade for Valedictorian. Anyway not that big of a deal still because I was set to be one of 3 students to take AP spanish and that would have still tied me with the other 5 as they couldn't well anyway they got it worked around with the school so that they could take AP spanish still, by doing like a co-Spanish 3/AP class. Still not a big deal as being Valedictorian only got you a 1 time 500 dollar scholarship. So don't know why even telling this, except that I busted my ass through High school (Well not really, not like it was ever hard to get an A anyway.)

Anyway I got a 31 on my final ACT which I took after having Calc (Which helped boost my math score a lot) so I was offered a full ride to Morehead State University. Which wasn't my school of choice, but I took it. Well upon completely the FAFSA my parents income was considered too high so they dropped my Scholarships by 5 grand. 2500 each semester because my parents estimated contribution was 5600 or so. That sad part is, my father had only had the job that put us above poverty level for about 2 years. My mother's salary has been a constant 15 grand since I was 2, and his was only around 18 grand until my sophomore year of high school. My mom didn't finish high school, and my father didn't finish technical school, quite possibly because my parents are severely ignorant. Every friend I have ever had that met my parents have no idea how I happened. So, anyway, I took out loans for both semesters. I wont lie my first semester I goofed off a lot, and didn't take it as seriously as I should (Basically treated it like my high school). I ended up getting a couple of As, 2 Bs, and 2 Cs. Not really so bad, especially considering, but still low enough to temporarily stop my scholarship. Which was no big deal I had the cash saved up. The next semester I slammed out all As in 6 courses and I also switched majors from chemistry to Psychology, because it turns out the only professor at Morehead that taught Chem 111 and 112 was also the only professor to never give above a C in his intro classes. Which I can understand kinda, he's perhaps the hardest teacher I've ever had, but for many students a C = a scholarship killer. Anyway I chose my second semester to tell my mother I was gay because I had started seeing someone. Well my mother didn't call me for about 2 weeks, and one day about a week before finals I got a call from my father telling me I wasn't welcome at home anymore.

So anyway, moved in with the guy I was seeing, when I applied for the fafsa that year I didn't include my parents income as I was now technically independent. Well turns out the government does that for you

I pleaded my case to the financial aid officers over the summer, was basically told that I would have to prove I hadn't received any help from my parents within the past year, and as I couldn't do that, I couldn't be independent. So unable to get enough money to cover school through loans because I had no credit I had to sit out an entire year. So I spent the year working at Cracker Barrel as a waiter, saved up quite a bit of money as I had no expenses, and I also started using credit cards to make any purchases and paid them off completely at the end of the month to build credit. My plan was just to go to school here in Virginia, but well relationship ended and I went back to KY. Thinking that I would get financial aid to cover school as it had been over a year since I had had so much a single word with my parents, and with all the money I had saved, I figured that I was in great shape.

Well the financial aid officers basically couldn't find a way to prove that I was now independent, because apparently the government doesn't care that you got kicked out of your house for being gay. I was told my only hope at getting financial aid without having my parents tacked on was to wait until I was 24. Well I had a little over 10 grand saved, and couldn't wait that long. (I also had paid off my first loan by this point).

So anyway what to say, I had to buy a ratty car that gave me epic trouble, Apparently my credit was only good enough for the very first student loan I got, and I ended up blowing everything I had to stay in school, including using credit cards to pay for some semesters, and one surprise 6000 dollar donation from an ex boyfriend who knew I couldn't afford to go to school another semester (Which was my last semester I was enrolled, and the story of that is a completely different story but probably the nicest thing anyone has ever done for me). Anyway only being able to work on the weekends to focus on my studies (I worked friday night 8 hours, and almost 30 hours on saturday and sunday combined), I basically tapped out. When I couldn't go back I got a second job, but of course the loan payments started pouring in, and the credit card bills etc.


So I've been through everything, talked to a lot of different people. Lawyers, financial aid officers, been in front of the school board even. Nothing I have tried has worked. I'm 9 classes from graduation, and in the year I've been out tuition at this tiny public university has increased by almost 2 grand. Factoring in books it's a little over 1000 dollars to just take 1 class. It's going to cost around 10000 dollars for me to finish school.


And well, this has all happened because one day Dick Nixon decided that people the age of 18 could screw the system by claiming independence and getting a free ride to college, so he decided to draw up the very federal law that has fucked me for the past 5 years basically.

However I did find out that if my parents had allowed me to be a legally emancipated minor before the age of 18 that I would have been able to go to school for free EVEN IF MY GPA HAD DROPPED TO THE POINT OF STRAIGHT Ds THE GOVERNMENT WOULD STILL FLIT THE BILL FOR 4 YEARS! Or had they let my very poor grandparents legally adopt me before the age of 18 I could have gone to school for free. There are about 10 other ways you can get around it.

I'm 9 classes away, since my first semester I've only had 2 grades of a B, calc 1 and 2 (Numbers get jumbled up in my head really badly and I take a lot of time to do problems to get the right answers my discrete mathematics teacher actually let me take the tests outside of the hour time limit but my calc teachers weren't having it, so mostly the Bs were attributed to my lack of actually finishing tests, but what I had done was right at least), and my gpa is a healthy 3.8 which is in the top 2 percentile at a university that barely finishes 30% of the students who enter, and I can't get a fucking scholarship or loan from the school or government because of the FAFSA? Fuck that. My parents barely clear 55,000 dollars a year anyway. Which is fine for them, but when you don't have parents who can cosign for your loans because they don't want you in their lives because you're gay, it really sucks.

And I understand that if the law was different that people would abuse the hell out of it, but the worst part is there are so many kids I went to school with who partied all the fucking time, and didn't go to half their classes, and didn't care who still couldn't get kicked out because it was ok if their GPA sucked as long as it was a 2.0. FUCKING DUMB.

And yes I've even gone as far as to talk to gay organizations and stuff, but pretty much all their scholarships are needs based as well. WTF is with all these needs based Scholarships these days and why do all of them go by the FAFSA?