Reconciling the American Dream with the Least Among Us

[Professor S]

The American Dream is not a myth. The fact is that most of the wealthy people in America are self-made/nouveau riche (came from relatively humble beginnings), and not a result of generational/aristocratic wealth. This is a myth pasted on to American society that was held over from European wealth structure and the writings of Marx and Engels, whose observations tended to be of Eurpean wealth structures. Also, most of the West was settled not by the rich, but by settlers looking to carve out their piece of the American Dream themselves. They took it upon themselves to take the US up on their ofer of land and tread into the great unknown seeking their fame and fortune. They are not to be derided, but celebrated for their sheer audacity.

Also, we have to define what the American Dream really is. After all, I'm sure many people who say they'll never "make it" likely have an iPhone in their pocket and a car. For previous generations a modest house and a car in every garage was the dream. Now people think they failed if they didn't get featured on My Super Sweet Sixteen on MTV.

There are just too many examples of people making the American Dream, whatever that may be, come true for it to be myth. Our ducation levels have never been higher (can be accredited to the GI Bill and government grants/loans) and wealth, even with the recession, has skyrocketed over time for every income level. Now is the American Dream more difficult for the poor (I refuse to call them the "least of us", that is insulting)? Undoubtedly, but no one said that everyone is the same, only that we have the equal opportunity under the law, not under the fairness. We would all love for everyone in the world to have the same starting point in life, but that will never happen whether by chance (status/wealth at birth) or by act of God (intelligence and health level).

We have done more to try and create a culture of fairness over the last 50-80 years with continued and expanding social and wealth redistribution programs and the end result is that we are a culture that has never felt more helpless and unhappy, and as KG shows more and more of us believe that the American Dream is a myth that some people just will never attain.

Me? I tend to agree with Michael Corleone from The Godfather... "Contempt for wealth is a trick played by the rich on the poor to ensure they never have it." The more the poor are convinced they'll never have anything, the less people the rich have to worry about competing with them. Even look at our tax structure. As we have gone forward to make the ideal of "fairness" a law and created taxes that punish and redistribute rather than encourage new wealth, it has made the American Dream harder and harder to attain. Now if you HAVE money and can hire tax, financial and legal counsel you can avoid paying most of the punitive taxes... but hey, thats for THEM not for YOU. It takes money to keep money in our current government.

If everyone would stop pining over everyone else, and start pining over their own condition, I think the world would be in a much better state and we wouldn't have a generation growing up thinking they have no hope unless the government spoon-feeds it to them atop an infant's high chair.

[Bond]

Originally Posted by Professor S

The American Dream is not a myth. The fact is that most of the wealthy people in America are self-made/nouveau riche (came from relatively humble beginnings), and not a result of generational/aristocratic wealth. This is a myth pasted on to American society that was held over from European wealth structure and the writings of Marx and Engels, whose observations tended to be of Eurpean wealth structures. Also, most of the West was settled not by the rich, but by settlers looking to carve out their piece of the American Dream themselves. They took it upon themselves to take the US up on their ofer of land and tread into the great unknown seeking their fame and fortune. They are not to be derided, but celebrated for their sheer audacity.

I would agree with you here in that the percentage of the "wealthy" that are generational is much lower than the self made, but I suppose this might depend as to how precisely we define the term wealthy. I would say, however, that in some ways we have developed our own form of an aristocracy, but to a lesser degree than European nations. We have our Rockefellers and our Vanderbilts, although they are few. I view them more so as a natural by-product of wealth creation than anything else.

We have done more to try and create a culture of fairness over the last 50-80 years with continued and expanding social and wealth redistribution programs and the end result is that we are a culture that has never felt more helpless and unhappy, and as KG shows more and more of us believe that the American Dream is a myth that some people just will never attain.

I don't necessarily disagree with your belief in the American Dream, but how do you explain the fact that the prime determiner of what ones class will be is the class of their parents?

[Professor S]

Originally Posted by Bond

I don't necessarily disagree with your belief in the American Dream, but how do you explain the fact that the prime determiner of what ones class will be is the class of their parents?

My first response would be to not let the myth of the perfect blind anyone from seeing the good.

If the TRUE determiner of one's class are their parents 1) Black people would still be slaves (thats why equality under the law is so important) and 2) I would be a a member of the working poor right now. In my mind the real reason is that we've had a government has been telling people since the 1930's that they can't do it, and has taken steps to ensure that they can't in a misguided attempt to help.

I could cite examples from today's predominantly black inner city ghettos and disproportionate occurrences of single parent households being a result of 1920's - 1940's government policies rather than individual efforts all the way to the counter-productive tax system I described earlier to draconian eminent domain laws. If we want people to achieve, we cannot interfere with their efforts to do so AND then TAKE the results of their achievement when they overcome that interference. In such an environment discouragement would be the norm, not the exception.

Still, even with all of this interference and borderline abuse, America is still the first and best example of people being able to come from nothing and make a successful life on their own terms, whatever that may be. Also, immigrants still flock to out shores. Hell, we're building a damn wall to keep them out because they are fleeing a REAL aristocracy in Mexico, where if you were born with native blood you are essentially &%$@ed at birth.

To me its all about perspective.

[TheSlyMoogle]

Being the best example of a government that allows those in the lowest class to rise to the highest class still doesn't mean it's a good system.

Odds are none of you here have ever had to make the decision of eating dinner or putting gas in your car for work the next day because you just spent most of the money you had on rent. Or going 3 months without a haircut because you couldn't scrape enough cash out to pay for one.

Haha I think the best solution would be that everyone grows up poor as fuck. Problem solved.

[TheGame]

Can someone elaorate on what Prof is talking about when he says "If we want people to achieve, we cannot interfere with their efforts to do so AND then TAKE the results of their achievement when they overcome that interference."

What interference exists now that didn't exist 60-70years ago? And what is taken now that wasn't taken then?

[Professor S]

Originally Posted by TheSlyMoogle

Being the best example of a government that allows those in the lowest class to rise to the highest class still doesn't mean it's a good system.

By that logic you can say anything stinks. Its pure opinion with no qualification or comparison and while I disagree completely there is no point in challenging such a statement.

Odds are none of you here have ever had to make the decision of eating dinner or putting gas in your car for work the next day because you just spent most of the money you had on rent. Or going 3 months without a haircut because you couldn't scrape enough cash out to pay for one.

I can't say I've ever had to make the decision you've described, but I can say my family wasn't far from it at one point. What we didn't do was cry "woe is me" or blame a system for the problem. The only person responsible for an individual and their family is the individual, regardless of what politicians say or laws they pass. In the end it's up to you. Anything else is fantasy.

Haha I think the best solution would be that everyone grows up poor as fuck. Problem solved.

And what a wonderful world that would be... I 'm having a hard time relating to you on this topic. Your statements reflect the thought process of an extraordinarily negative person. I recommend reading the Tao te Ching http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tao_Te_Ching

I don't believe America is perfect in realizing its ideals, but perfection is a myth and chasing it is a dangerous fools game. It can get better, of course, but I've seen too much success in my life to believe the myth that it is a myth. For example, I work with Realtors, and most of them came from very humble beginnings and most either do not have college degrees or they got them later in life once they made their money. What they did have was the time and effort to get their license and master their craft and make their own best life. Does that mean every Realtor shares the same success? Absolutely not. WE are not all equal, we are only guaranteed that shot, not the results. Freedom to succeed also comes with the freedom to fail. I would hate to live in a world where no one ever failed. How boring and pointless would that be?

Buit again, if someone wants to believe they or others are trapped by some mysterious shadow web of wealth and power, they can go right ahead. They're one less person I have to compete with.

[TheSlyMoogle]

Originally Posted by Professor S

By that logic you can say anything stinks. Its pure opinion with no qualification or comparison and while I disagree completely there is no point in challenging such a statement.

What? That's bogus. Just because something has technically worked for the last few centuries doesn't mean it will continue to work, or that it actually works that well. If we tried every governmental system in existence for a period of time, and then our system worked the best, then yeah, that would be true. Just because we've lasted so long, doesn't mean it really is working to benefit anyone. That's like saying there are no need for new cars because the ones we have work well.

Originally Posted by Professor S

I can't say I've ever had to make the decision you've described, but I can say my family wasn't far from it at one point. What we didn't do was cry "woe is me" or blame a system for the problem. The only person responsible for an individual and their family is the individual, regardless of what politicians say or laws they pass. In the end it's up to you. Anything else is fantasy.

Neither did I, but that doesn't mean someone is a lesser individual because the did and it's ignorant to think that everyone had the same chances and control their own destiny. That's just an easy way out for you to blame the homeless person when they beg you for your change. Sure some of us make really bad decisions through life, but it's not the majority, and sometimes it's not a decision, it's just the way things have to be.

Originally Posted by Professor S

And what a wonderful world that would be... I 'm having a hard time relating to you on this topic. Your statements reflect the thought process of an extraordinarily negative person. I recommend reading the Tao te Ching http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tao_Te_Ching

That was a joke. Was hoping the "haha" in front would imply.

Originally Posted by Professor S

I don't believe America is perfect in realizing its ideals, but perfection is a myth and chasing it is a dangerous fools game. It can get better, of course, but I've seen too much success in my life to believe the myth that it is a myth. For example, I work with Realtors, and most of them came from very humble beginnings and most either do not have college degrees or they got them later in life once they made their money. What they did have was the time and effort to get their license and master their craft and make their own best life. Does that mean every Realtor shares the same success? Absolutely not. WE are not all equal, we are only guaranteed that shot, not the results. Freedom to succeed also comes with the freedom to fail. I would hate to live in a world where no one ever failed. How boring and pointless would that be?

You're right, it could get much better. It's also foolish to think that every problem with this country can be solved through hard work. If that was true then none of us would ever need to go to school to practice the things we enjoy. I mean look at me, I probably understand coding better than a lot of the people who are in the coding industry, but do I have a job? No because I can't afford a piece of paper. Amazing.

Originally Posted by Professor S

Buit again, if someone wants to believe they or others are trapped by some mysterious shadow web of wealth and power, they can go right ahead. They're one less person I have to compete with.

I see in this attitude more negativity than anything I've ever said. Protect what you have. That's the American Sentiment. Don't help others, strive to get as many materialistic things as possible, and strive to be better than everyone else. That's the goal.

Sometimes people fall down, and all they need is someone to pick them back up and help them walk again. The American Dream doesn't do that though, it walks over to them, pulls down it's large pair of pants, takes a huge shit, and uses a few Franklins to wipe, then burns them all while laughing.

Fuck the American dream.

[Professor S]

Originally Posted by TheSlyMoogle

What? That's bogus. Just because something has technically worked for the last few centuries doesn't mean it will continue to work, or that it actually works that well. If we tried every governmental system in existence for a period of time, and then our system worked the best, then yeah, that would be true. Just because we've lasted so long, doesn't mean it really is working to benefit anyone. That's like saying there are no need for new cars because the ones we have work well.

My comment had little to do with anything you just described. I simply don't think that a statement like "the best is not necessarily good" is one that anyone can discuss fairly or intelligently. It's pure opinion.

As for trying to make a governmental system work to right all perceived wrongs, well, that's been tried. An estimated 20 million people were slaughtered in the 20th century because of it. Power doesn't wax or wane, it just changes hands. Its much safer to have that power reasonably distributed among the multitudes than centralized in the few. The government is the few and always will be. Centralized power will always oppress. It is in it's nature.

Neither did I, but that doesn't mean someone is a lesser individual because the did and it's ignorant to think that everyone had the same chances and control their own destiny.

I never said anyone had the same opportunity, but I do contend everyone has the same control over their fate. No one is a puppet. No one, unless they choose to be.

That's just an easy way out for you to blame the homeless person when they beg you for your change. Sure some of us make really bad decisions through life, but it's not the majority, and sometimes it's not a decision, it's just the way things have to be.

Actually the majority have alcohol/drug problems and many have severe mental illness. There are very few American homeless that are of sound mind. Personally, I think this is an area that we could do much more with. One of my greatest complaints of the Reagan era was the removal of funds from mental asylums. I think there should be more sanitary and effective asylums in America to house, treat and train the homeless to make them more capable or at least keep the mentally ill of the street and safe.

As I said, America is not perfect. There is work to be done, but I also do not allow a few hundred thousand (some estimates as low as 150,000) homeless cancel out millions of success stories.

That was a joke. Was hoping the "haha" in front would imply.

You have to admit joke or no that statement holds some truth behind it (in your opinion). I chose to address the truth and not the joke. In any case, I still recommend the Tao. It changed my life and made me realize that I am not always in control and I cannot control others, and to allow myself to let go for my own benefit.

You're right, it could get much better. It's also foolish to think that every problem with this country can be solved through hard work.

Not all but most. Will you always succeed through hard work? No, but I dare say your odds increase drastically.

Truthfully, most people don't give up on the American Dream because they see "the writing on the wall". They give up because they're afraid that if they try they could fail, and they don't want to face that possibility. To me, failure is a blessing and a teachable moment. Edison said it best: "I have not failed. I've just found 10,000 ways that won't work."

If that was true then none of us would ever need to go to school to practice the things we enjoy. I mean look at me, I probably understand coding better than a lot of the people who are in the coding industry, but do I have a job? No because I can't afford a piece of paper. Amazing.

Life is about trial and error. I went back to school to become a teacher, but the bureaucracy was so intense that they told me I would have to go back and retake my entire undergraduate degree. I could not afford that and honestly thought it was ridiculous. I analyzed the problem, realized I was not in control of this outcome, and made a decision to change direction and find a new outcome.

Instead of getting my teaching degree, I decided to spend my loan/grant money on a TLT (teaching and learning with technology) certification instead and go after a career in corporate eduction. Now I run a small team of professional trainers and serve 30,000 Realtor members.

Was this the goal I started out with? No. Am I happy with my choices? Absolutely. And my success came to me after YEARS of hard work and suffer for 4 years in the worst job known to mankind. All of that led me to the place where I am now and I know only better things await me in the future because with each step back I will learn and then take 3 steps forward.

I see in this attitude more negativity than anything I've ever said. Protect what you have. That's the American Sentiment. Don't help others, strive to get as many materialistic things as possible, and strive to be better than everyone else. That's the goal.

You misunderstand me. I was trying to make a point. If I didn't want to help you I wouldn't have written everything I just did. The fact is until you see any possibility that you are in control of your own destiny (but not your starting point), no amount of help will assist you. You have the mentality of failure. No one can save you but yourself, and you will not make positive decision until you have a positive attitude.

Take your lack of a "piece of paper" for example. If you really wanted one you would have it. There has never been more assistance for education then now, and rates on loans are incredibly low and they defer payment until after you graduate. Judging by your attitude in this thread I would guess that you haven't gotten the funding because you don't think anything would matter anyway. You have convinced yourself you are fucked from birth, so therefore, why try? Its much easier to give up and blame the universe for our failings or some wealthy person who doesn't even know you much less work against you.

Sometimes people fall down, and all they need is someone to pick them back up and help them walk again. The American Dream doesn't do that though, it walks over to them, pulls down it's large pair of pants, takes a huge shit, and uses a few Franklins to wipe, then burns them all while laughing.

Fuck the American dream.

How has this attitude made your life better? Does your cynicism armor you against all the bad things in life, or continue them?

There is nothing anyone could do to help you if you keep this attitude. We could redistribute every cent in the world and you would still fail simply because you refuse to take any responsibility for your own condition. I don't say this out of malice, but because I like you and want to see you succeed, but if all you do is wait for someone or some government to save you... you'll be waiting a very long time...

You need to stop thinking about how unfair it all is. Recognize your situation. Analyze your options, and there are ALWAYS options, make a decision and MOVE.

"People create their own questions because they are afraid to look straight. All you have to do is look straight and see the road, and when you see it, don't sit looking at it - walk. " Ayn Rand

Also, my positivity doesn't completely come naturally. Very few people know this but in my early 20's I considered committing suicide. That's how alone and sad I was. That said, I made the decision that the status quo couldn't stand. I had to make a change. To this day I work at my success and happiness as much as I work at my job and my marriage.

[KillerGremlin]

Originally Posted by Professor S

The American Dream is not a myth. The fact is that most of the wealthy people in America are self-made/nouveau riche (came from relatively humble beginnings), and not a result of generational/aristocratic wealth. This is a myth pasted on to American society that was held over from European wealth structure and the writings of Marx and Engels, whose observations tended to be of Eurpean wealth structures. Also, most of the West was settled not by the rich, but by settlers looking to carve out their piece of the American Dream themselves. They took it upon themselves to take the US up on their ofer of land and tread into the great unknown seeking their fame and fortune. They are not to be derided, but celebrated for their sheer audacity.

Also, we have to define what the American Dream really is. After all, I'm sure many people who say they'll never "make it" likely have an iPhone in their pocket and a car. For previous generations a modest house and a car in every garage was the dream. Now people think they failed if they didn't get featured on My Super Sweet Sixteen on MTV.

There are just too many examples of people making the American Dream, whatever that may be, come true for it to be myth. Our ducation levels have never been higher (can be accredited to the GI Bill and government grants/loans) and wealth, even with the recession, has skyrocketed over time for every income level. Now is the American Dream more difficult for the poor (I refuse to call them the "least of us", that is insulting)? Undoubtedly, but no one said that everyone is the same, only that we have the equal opportunity under the law, not under the fairness. We would all love for everyone in the world to have the same starting point in life, but that will never happen whether by chance (status/wealth at birth) or by act of God (intelligence and health level).

We have done more to try and create a culture of fairness over the last 50-80 years with continued and expanding social and wealth redistribution programs and the end result is that we are a culture that has never felt more helpless and unhappy, and as KG shows more and more of us believe that the American Dream is a myth that some people just will never attain.

What is this American dream? Is it the broadening class gap between the rich and the poor? The rich keep getting richer, the poor keep getting poorer. Is the American dream living in country that lives beyond its means? Our rampant consumerism, and we have been a consumerist nation for the past several decades, has resulted in us exploiting the labor of poor people (oh noes, slave labor in sweatshops, there's one example of privelage or lack thereof) as well as the environment. Or how about the waste we have accumulated (garbage) and the damage we have done to the environment to have all our stuff. Is the American dream to own a bunch of objects: iPods, cars, houses, cellphones, etc. Is it to be a consumerist driven society that wants and wants and wants? We are an A-D-D society that no longer values art or reading or philosophy or religion, and in my opinion education to an extent. How normal is it for youth to read books and bask in the wonders of education? Now it's a bunch of standardized testing to get your kid into college so he can get a job so he can make money so he can BUY SHIT HE DOES NOT NEED. Is that the American dream? Is the American dream really to become the CEO of a company and get paid a ridiculous salary that NO ONE is worth/deserves, or is it just to have basic things like security in your neighborhood, food on the table, a right to your own decision regarding your job, and a freedom to express yourself.

If there is an American dream, it is that most people want stuff. Consumerism. That's not a dream that's an [ism]. I confess I want stuff. Stuff I don't need, and stuff that is going to exploit others. And how will I get this stuff! By working a job and going to school. I, like many people, am driven by moola.

Am I cynical?

I really did not want to get involved in this thread...but TheSlyMoogle has done a lot of the work for me so why not.

Also, I feel somewhat obligated since I found Bond's original post to be humorous (like how can you have a diversity course in a cornfield in Wisconsin. And by the way, isn't Madison ranked fairly low in terms of diversity)

Originally Posted by Professor S

Overall, reading your story I think the real monkey wrench was your relationship with your parents (and bureaucracy that I talked about as an inhibitor to the AD earlier, and how it relates to esclalating education costs, but that is another topic all together), which is very unfortunate and I hope they will come to their senses so your family can be healthy and happy. But that said, I'm not sure your circumstances could be described as normal and applied to the American Dream as a whole, even though it certainly affects you.

I don't want to accuse you of anything, but it sounds like you are making this story an individualist one.

We live in a world that operates based on certain social norms, and within those norms are a lot of social codes. TheSlyMoogle's situation is not particularly unique as many Queer people (anyone in the LGBTQ community) tell narratives of family members reacting quite negatively to their coming out process. Also narrated are stories of friends, teachers and communities lashing out against these people. It is no coincidence that the LGBTQ community has the highest rate of suicide amongst youth. There is deep rooted discrimination in our society towards the LGBTQ community. We obviously are not a post-Gender society. So, being LGBTQ puts you at a social disadvantage in many ways according to our normal social codes. I am privileged to be a normal straight guy. I never had to deal with coming out, never had to deal with issues within social network, etc. It is advantageous to not be gay (although less so now) and it has been for quite some time. To simply reduce TheSlyMoogle's situation to a simple family problem is to negate broader social issues. TheSlyMoogle's parents are not unique in their hatred towards gays: they were conditioned by external forces in the world we live in. Similar broad social norms and codes apply to all sorts of communities...which is why privilege is such a big issue. How do you reconcile this? I don't know that you can in a GT forum thread.


By the way, I'm not saying there is a solution to this, as I noted before I feel like we will always live in a dog-eat-dog world. People are selfish by nature, and that's not a cynical comment it's an honest observation. The two major motivations that drive people are money and power over others.

So while I'm all for individualism (I really am, I'm going into Psychology because I like helping people, I like that individual connection, and sociology is too theoretical and idealistic for me) and rooting on the people who do make an effort to get an education and succeed, I'm also empathetic to those who fall victim to depression, suicide, gang violence, drugs, prison, etc.

Growing up in certain situations makes it hard for people to do even the simplest things...like getting an education. As for the American dream...I really need an ipod.

[TheSlyMoogle]

Originally Posted by KillerGremlin

I don't want to accuse you of anything, but it sounds like you are making this story an individualist one.

We live in a world that operates based on certain social norms, and within those norms are a lot of social codes. TheSlyMoogle's situation is not particularly unique as many Queer people (anyone in the LGBTQ community) tell narratives of family members reacting quite negatively to their coming out process. Also narrated are stories of friends, teachers and communities lashing out against these people. It is no coincidence that the LGBTQ community has the highest rate of suicide amongst youth. There is deep rooted discrimination in our society towards the LGBTQ community. We obviously are not a post-Gender society. So, being LGBTQ puts you at a social disadvantage in many ways according to our normal social codes. I am privileged to be a normal straight guy. I never had to deal with coming out, never had to deal with issues within social network, etc. It is advantageous to not be gay (although less so now) and it has been for quite some time. To simply reduce TheSlyMoogle's situation to a simple family problem is to negate broader social issues. TheSlyMoogle's parents are not unique in their hatred towards gays: they were conditioned by external forces in the world we live in. Similar broad social norms and codes apply to all sorts of communities...which is why privilege is such a big issue. How do you reconcile this? I don't know that you can in a GT forum thread.

As for the American dream...I really need an ipod.

Haha I wasn't going to get into this as was done with the thread, but you pretty much said everything I would have. It is the norm, most people who I've met in my life since have been like "Oh yeah I have a friend whose parents did the same thing"

It's quite common for most people, especially in this part of the US. Hell, until 1973 Homosexuality was considered a mental disorder.

Basically due to our overly religious society mostly, and because it's just the next thing to hate. "Oh not cool to hate people of other races anymore? Fine... I'll hate someone else. Oh gay people, that seems hateable. Let's do that."

That's an entirely different discussion.

I will say that I am fortunate enough to have not run into many people in my lifetime that have viewed me in a negative way because of my sexual preference. At least, not at face, and really in the end societal tolerance through societal pressure is fine with me Hahaha.


Also I wish everyone could have an iPod. Also that it was cool for everyone to just jam out all the time. Think the world would be a better place if there was more music.

[Professor S]

Originally Posted by KillerGremlin

What is this American dream? Is it the broadening class gap between the rich and the poor? The rich keep getting richer, the poor keep getting poorer.

That is not correct, but I understand why you think that. Those that want to create more class warfare and contempt for wealth for poltical gain always quote the "disparity between the rich and the poor". Yes, there is a growing disparity, but all "classes" have grown in wealth in the recent past. Adjusted for inflation, I believe the rich have grown by around 70% while the poor have grown by aout 30% over the last 30 years. Again, I'm remembering this off the top of my head so please don't quote me on the numbers. Also, I'm not saying this is acceptable of unacceptable, I'm simply stating what it is.

Is the American dream living in country that lives beyond its means?

No, and I don't. That is a personal choice. People are responsible for their own actions. While I agree that credit card companies have been essentially abusing relaxation in usery law for years (I'm happy to see the new laws passed about credit abuse), at this point does anyone not know that they'll be paying exorbinate interest rates on credit cards, etc? No. The Anerican Dream doesn't excuse poor choices, but it will forgive them if you make better choices. The American Dream is about choice.

Our rampant consumerism, and we have been a consumerist nation for the past several decades, has resulted in us exploiting the labor of poor people (oh noes, slave labor in sweatshops, there's one example of privelage or lack thereof) as well as the environment.

"Poor" is a relative term. In many nations these "sweatshops" pay on average more than their average citizen makes. Is it "slave labor" in America? Yes. But these countries are not America and what they can get for a dollar is far different from what we can get for a dollar. Also, India and China's economies and educational levels have exploded because of an influx of work from overseas. In a few years both of those countries are going to have more college graduates than we have high school graduates. You cannot exclude this skyrocketing standard of living from the surge in the global economy, and in fact, I would say it's because of the so called "slave labor" that these countries are exploding in terms of wealth and standard of living.

If anything, I'd say India is better at pursuing the American Dream than we are right now and China's continued assimilation of free market philosophies are rapidly improving their civil rights status, but again, everything is relative.

Or how about the waste we have accumulated (garbage) and the damage we have done to the environment to have all our stuff. Is the American dream to own a bunch of objects: iPods, cars, houses, cellphones, etc. Is it to be a consumerist driven society that wants and wants and wants?

I think the American Dream is about chasing whatever it is that you can define as success. It's not about what the group says you should have or need, its about what YOU determine you want and need. Letting the group determine your life is not freedom or a dream, its oppression and a nightmare.

We are an A-D-D society that no longer values art or reading or philosophy or religion, and in my opinion education to an extent. How normal is it for youth to read books and bask in the wonders of education?

I would point back to my earlier statements about government interference, 30's and 40's in particular, for much of what we find lacking in poor family dynamics in America, especially among urban minorities. Contempt for wealth is also a reason hy I think people tend to disregard education. Why study if you can never improve your situation, or worse yet, if you bask in your own poverty and needful status? There is no point and therefore no progress is made.

Now it's a bunch of standardized testing to get your kid into college so he can get a job so he can make money so he can BUY SHIT HE DOES NOT NEED.

By whose standard do ou make such claims about want and need? Yours? I find it funny that you might expect people to take life advice from someone with such a negative view of the world.

Is that the American dream? Is the American dream really to become the CEO of a company and get paid a ridiculous salary that NO ONE is worth/deserves, or is it just to have basic things like security in your neighborhood, food on the table, a right to your own decision regarding your job, and a freedom to express yourself.

It depends on the person. My dream is to live and retire comfortably while raising a happy and healthy family. Bill gates dream was to build the largest and most successful software company in the world, and once he achieved it, his new dream is to be the world's greatest philathropist. He has achieved both and his American Dream has literally helped MILLIONS.

It's up to you. The American Dream is about allowing the individual to be FREE to pursue their HAPPINESS. Its not about dictating what someone should or should not have. That is at best unproductive for you, and at worst oppressive to others.

If there is an American dream, it is that most people want stuff. Consumerism.

Thats your opinion, and how you have defined success. And by the way, if that makes people TRULY happy and is not simply a bandage to cover the wounds of an unhappy life (Marx), I'm fine with that and would encourage them continue.

That's not a dream that's an [ism]. I confess I want stuff. Stuff I don't need, and stuff that is going to exploit others. And how will I get this stuff! By working a job and going to school. I, like many people, am driven by moola.

Thats you. I'm driven by more own sense of achievement and my puruit of happiness. I am perfectly happy and I live well below my means, 10% of my salary goes into my retirement account, I drive a 2000 Buick Century and live in an old house I'm fixing up. If I want something and can afford it with all things considered, I go get it. I like living in a country where I am free to do so and industry is free to offer me things I might like to purchase (and by the way, so enables their families to succeed and prosper as well) Currently, my biggest money worry is making enough money to allow my wife to quit her job and work from home while raising our children. THAT is what would make me happy. Money is just the means for attaining it.

"If money is the root of all evil, what is the root of all money?" ~Ayn Rand

I don't want to accuse you of anything, but it sounds like you are making this story an individualist one.

There is no accusation in pointing out the obvious. The American Dream is an individualist one. It always has been and always will be. Look at the Constitution and Bill of Rights. It is the standard by which the idea of the American Dream was originated and it is literally a "thou shall not" list for the government when it comes to it screwing with the individual.

By the way, I am an open and unabashed individualist. Ayn Rand is my homeboy.

We live in a world that operates based on certain social norms, and within those norms are a lot of social codes. TheSlyMoogle's situation is not particularly unique as many Queer people (anyone in the LGBTQ community) tell narratives of family members reacting quite negatively to their coming out process. Also narrated are stories of friends, teachers and communities lashing out against these people. It is no coincidence that the LGBTQ community has the highest rate of suicide amongst youth. There is deep rooted discrimination in our society towards the LGBTQ community. We obviously are not a post-Gender society. So, being LGBTQ puts you at a social disadvantage in many ways according to our normal social codes. I am privileged to be a normal straight guy. I never had to deal with coming out, never had to deal with issues within social network, etc. It is advantageous to not be gay (although less so now) and it has been for quite some time. To simply reduce TheSlyMoogle's situation to a simple family problem is to negate broader social issues. TheSlyMoogle's parents are not unique in their hatred towards gays: they were conditioned by external forces in the world we live in. Similar broad social norms and codes apply to all sorts of communities...which is why privilege is such a big issue. How do you reconcile this? I don't know that you can in a GT forum thread.

And yet through all of this SlyMoogle has not given up on the American Dream, regardless of what he claims. The fact is, as he stated, he is still working towards it.

The American Dream isn't about entitlement and its not a tangible or defineable end point. It is about being free to pursue what you want from your life, and not having a culture or government tell you you can't do it and thats that. Nothing about it says your journey will be easy, and there are NO GUARANTEES. Some stories and situations are harder than others, but that is life, not fate. You own your future. Dictating what someone should want, need and get would not make this better, it would make it FAR worse and HAS made it far worse when attempted.

By the way, I'm not saying there is a solution to this, as I noted before I feel like we will always live in a dog-eat-dog world. People are selfish by nature, and that's not a cynical comment it's an honest observation. The two major motivations that drive people are money and power over others.

By your standard I suppose thats true. I apply my own standard to my motivations.

Growing up in certain situations makes it hard for people to do even the simplest things...like getting an education. As for the American dream...I really need an ipod.

And does telling people how hard their lives are, or convincing them that "the man" will always keep them down help things? This is exactly what I don't understand: How does all of this overwrought and hyperbolic negativity help anyone? Has any of it ever benefitted your life? IMO, it just creates and continues a culture of lowered expectations.

My opinions on this are not cynical, they are realistic: No matter the social, cultural or governmental standard or assistance, one's success (however they define it) will ALWAYS be up to the individual. And the first step towards the American Dream is not to criticize or bemoan universal inequity, but to take action on your own life, concentrating on your sphere of influence.

Pissing into the wind only gets you wet.

[KillerGremlin]

I like you Prof...because at least you're fair. And I find that by putting my thoughts out here, I learn stuff (like your response and Seth's post). I'm pretty reactionary which is another reason why I wouldn't survive in law...but I digress.

Originally Posted by Professor S

That is not correct, but I understand why you think that. Those that want to create more class warfare and contempt for wealth for poltical gain always quote the "disparity between the rich and the poor". Yes, there is a growing disparity, but all "classes" have grown in wealth in the recent past. Adjusted for inflation, I believe the rich have grown by around 70% while the poor have grown by aout 30% over the last 30 years. Again, I'm remembering this off the top of my head so please don't quote me on the numbers. Also, I'm not saying this is acceptable of unacceptable, I'm simply stating what it is.

True. My post was pretty reactionary...I guess it just seems that way (the broadening gap) given all the media focus on the CEOs and the bankers.

Originally Posted by Professor S

No, and I don't. That is a personal choice. People are responsible for their own actions. While I agree that credit card companies have been essentially abusing relaxation in usery law for years (I'm happy to see the new laws passed about credit abuse), at this point does anyone not know that they'll be paying exorbinate interest rates on credit cards, etc? No. The Anerican Dream doesn't excuse poor choices, but it will forgive them if you make better choices. The American Dream is about choice.

Agreed...especially on a person level. People make bad choices. I think there is a lot of deception and things that influence people to make bad choices, and it questions the motives of credit card companies and banks, but it is what it is and if people were wiser (like my parents, and it sounds like you and your family as well) then it'd be better in general. On the other hand, do you think our government and our economy is structured in a way that is beyond our means? Is there a point where this country will financially hit a roadblock and not be able to resolve the issue? I'm asking your opinion, not argumentatively because I do not know.

Originally Posted by Professor S

"Poor" is a relative term. In many nations these "sweatshops" pay on average more than their average citizen makes. Is it "slave labor" in America? Yes. But these countries are not America and what they can get for a dollar is far different from what we can get for a dollar. Also, India and China's economies and educational levels have exploded because of an influx of work from overseas. In a few years both of those countries are going to have more college graduates than we have high school graduates. You cannot exclude this skyrocketing standard of living from the surge in the global economy, and in fact, I would say it's because of the so called "slave labor" that these countries are exploding in terms of wealth and standard of living.

My understanding is the brain drain actually has caused India to take a financial hit as a country? Again, I'm not really trying to provoke an argument, I've just heard conflicting reports. Also, there exists sweatshops outside of China and India where standards are a lot different. We could probably do a whole thread on labor across the world, and globalization and all that. I think you'd find I agree with you about a lot of the issues because I personally believe that as we progress as a global society, much of what determines a country's value will be education.

Originally Posted by Professor S

I think the American Dream is about chasing whatever it is that you can define as success. It's not about what the group says you should have or need, its about what YOU determine you want and need. Letting the group determine your life is not freedom or a dream, its oppression and a nightmare.

And I agree with this! I say AMEN! I think the problem is our society has defined what people need/want. Especially current generations. I know when I was in high school there was little leeway for the artists or musicians or the people who wanted to pursue something outside of college like plumbing or electricity. It was a push from high school to college to the job that you supposedly need and want at the end of the tunnel. For many people, I think, society conditions them to believe they have this set path. And it gets worse and worse because our education now focuses on standardized testing and bullshit tests like the ACT or the GRE to determine intelligence (these tests are as flawed as the IQ tests). I think our country is becoming a bit oppressed, I think it is very covert. Again...I could go on this for hours, we could dedicate a thread to this.

Originally Posted by Professor S

I would point back to my earlier statements about government interference, 30's and 40's in particular, for much of what we find lacking in poor family dynamics in America, especially among urban minorities. Contempt for wealth is also a reason hy I think people tend to disregard education. Why study if you can never improve your situation, or worse yet, if you bask in your own poverty and needful status? There is no point and therefore no progress is made.

Agreed. Again, all this standardized testing and merit of intelligence doesn't help either, in my opinion.

Originally Posted by Professor S

By whose standard do ou make such claims about want and need? Yours? I find it funny that you might expect people to take life advice from someone with such a negative view of the world.

Touche, I guess?

Originally Posted by Professor S

It depends on the person. My dream is to live and retire comfortably while raising a happy and healthy family. Bill gates dream was to build the largest and most successful software company in the world, and once he achieved it, his new dream is to be the world's greatest philathropist. He has achieved both and his American Dream has literally helped MILLIONS.

It's up to you. The American Dream is about allowing the individual to be FREE to pursue their HAPPINESS. Its not about dictating what someone should or should not have. That is at best unproductive for you, and at worst oppressive to others.

My comment about the CEO thing was kind of a sarcastic response to your statement which was:
"Now people think they failed if they didn't get featured on My Super Sweet Sixteen on MTV."

I don't think people really want to become overpaid CEOs or to get on TV. I think they just want the basic stuff like what you want: a family, retirement, a beer. Of course I cannot speak on behalf of everyone, but neither can you.

Originally Posted by Professor S

Thats your opinion, and how you have defined success. And by the way, if that makes people TRULY happy and is not simply a bandage to cover the wounds of an unhappy life (Marx), I'm fine with that and would encourage them continue.

I'll agree to disagree and add a twist. I think we are a consumerist driven society but I think we are a species that is driven by want anyway. I think that drive could be good in that it gives us something to live for. And I'll leave it at that because again...we could make a whole new thread.

Originally Posted by Professor S

Thats you. I'm driven by more own sense of achievement and my puruit of happiness. I am perfectly happy and I live well below my means, 10% of my salary goes into my retirement account, I drive a 2000 Buick Century and live in an old house I'm fixing up. If I want something and can afford it with all things considered, I go get it. I like living in a country where I am free to do so and industry is free to offer me things I might like to purchase (and by the way, so enables their families to succeed and prosper as well) Currently, my biggest money worry is making enough money to allow my wife to quit her job and work from home while raising our children. THAT is what would make me happy. Money is just the means for attaining it.

"If money is the root of all evil, what is the root of all money?" ~Ayn Rand

My statement was both brash and a disclaimer to myself. Basically, my disclaimer is that I want stuff and I enjoy wanting it. I don't consider myself better or unique than anyone else in the world, and my observations about our consumerist driven society are true to myself. Money doesn't make me happy...writing, music, exercising, my family, my girlfriend, my pursuits of education on my own behalf...these things make me happy. I also enjoy horology, a recent hobby, which requires money. I realize watches are a somewhat superficial hobby, but it could be argued that video gaming or comics or anything is. At the same time, I do think that a lot of the things I want are things I don't need, and that want does help motivate myself to work. I guess it is just conditioning.

Originally Posted by Professor S

There is no accusation in pointing out the obvious. The American Dream is an individualist one. It always has been and always will be. Look at the Constitution and Bill of Rights. It is the standard by which the idea of the American Dream was originated and it is literally a "thou shall not" list for the government when it comes to it screwing with the individual.

By the way, I am an open and unabashed individualist. Ayn Rand is my homeboy.

I like the Constitution.

Originally Posted by Professor S

And yet through all of this SlyMoogle has not given up on the American Dream, regardless of what he claims. The fact is, as he stated, he is still working towards it.

The American Dream isn't about entitlement and its not a tangible or defineable end point. It is about being free to pursue what you want from your life, and not having a culture or government tell you you can't do it and thats that. Nothing about it says your journey will be easy, and there are NO GUARANTEES. Some stories and situations are harder than others, but that is life, not fate. You own your future. Dictating what someone should want, need and get would not make this better, it would make it FAR worse and HAS made it far worse when attempted.

I guess the only thing I would say to this is that sometimes your culture and government influences you in a way that does impact what you can or cannot do. Your mobility in society is greatly influenced by your race, class, sexuality, etc. Some people have to overcome additional burdens (like a black queer vs. white straight person) and that is how privilege factors into the pursuit of the American dream. That's my opinion. And as far as "you own your future," I would disagree. You don't chose your skin color or your sexuality, and so part of your future is dictated by your personal choices as well as the world you live in. 100 years ago, if you were born with a mental disorder you were thrown into a prison for life and tortured. Pre-Stonewall, if you were gay and you went to a club you got throw in jail. Today, if you you use crack cocaine you face more time in prison than someone who uses regular cocaine (and guess which communities have the highest rates of use of crack cocaine).

Ultimately, you and I are going to disagree forever unless my opinion changes (and I'm open to change....lol...I've changed on quite a few issues that I think even you and I have discussed during my tenure on these boards). I respect the people who do rise above their struggles, they are the examples that we as a society should live by.

Originally Posted by Professor S

And does telling people how hard their lives are, or convincing them that "the man" will always keep them down help things? This is exactly what I don't understand: How does all of this overwrought and hyperbolic negativity help anyone? Has any of it ever benefitted your life? IMO, it just creates and continues a culture of lowered expectations.

And this is my #1 problem with sociology. It is a bit self-serving and self-loathing. At the same time, I hope that by recognizing the broader social issues that keep certain groups repressed we can move forward as a society. You said I'm very negative, but I think that's a fairly optimistic way to look at sociology and things like civil rights. Also, when you have groups in the age bracket of 12-18 (inner city kids who go to Chicago Public Schools) that see gang violence frequently, or Latino children attending schools in California who see murders (and it is common enough of occurrence that it happens to about 1 in 3 youth), it becomes less of a self-defeating exercise and more of a "what the heck is wrong with society?" conversation.

Originally Posted by Professor S

My opinions on this are not cynical, they are realistic: No matter the social, cultural or governmental standard or assistance, one's success (however they define it) will ALWAYS be up to the individual. And the first step towards the American Dream is not to criticize or bemoan universal inequity, but to take action on your own life, concentrating on your sphere of influence.

Again, I think there is some truth in this and that the truth in it is inspiring. But overall I'm going to agree to disagree. And pleasantly so if I may add.

If this was a real pub I'd say let's put our differences aside and have a beer. This whole Internet thing is really throwing off the fun of a good argument, eh?

[Bond]

Originally Posted by KillerGremlin

Also, I feel somewhat obligated since I found Bond's original post to be humorous (like how can you have a diversity course in a cornfield in Wisconsin. And by the way, isn't Madison ranked fairly low in terms of diversity)

Madison is not a cornfield you silly head. While Madison is ~83% white, that statistic does not take into account our significant international population. To be fair, I wouldn't defend the city or its diversity in a normal conversation, but someone has to stand up to those mean people from Illinois.

[KillerGremlin]

Originally Posted by Bond

Madison is not a cornfield you silly head. While Madison is ~83% white, that statistic does not take into account our significant international population. To be fair, I wouldn't defend the city or its diversity in a normal conversation, but someone has to stand up to those mean people from Illinois.

I was semi-giving you a hard time.

Most universities aren't all that diverse to begin with (the main bias being...it's full of smart college students).

[Professor S]

Hey KG, I think I definitely see where you're coming from now, and I think we probably agree on more than we think we do. And for the record, I think this has been a great argument!

ahem

sorry

"Civil discussion"

EDIT: Almost forgot some stats on India's economy... According to most recent stats India's poverty situation has been improving steadily for a long time.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:BPL_Data_GOI.png

And for the last decade the rate of growth has been very high

http://www.indexmundi.com/india/gdp_...owth_rate.html

That's all the really hard India data I could find. Its much more promising, but certainly not ideal.