Let's Talk Politics

[Professor S]

Originally posted by Ranzid
Maybe all of that is true. Maybe he beats his prisoners, sets up rape camps, etc. And maybe it's a very good idea to remove him from power. But tell me this. Do you actually believe that the US government wants to remove him from power because the population of Iraq is suffering (BTW I don't think they are suffering that much) or because Iraq is a threat to the US? Do you really think that?

I think its a little out of column A and a lot out of column B. In either case, its a justifiable course of action.

So by your rationale, the US shouldn't attack Iraq if they are a threat? I think you just argued my point for me

And Ranzid, you drill people about not backing upo their opinions, what facts do you have to prove that Iraq DOESN'T have a Nuke. You strike me as naive in that case. Iraq ordered several tons of aluminum dust from North Korea and that has been documented. Aluminum dust is crucial in the development of Nuclear materials. Do your homework.

[Rndm_Perfection]

First off: Strangler, I respect your arguement, your tone, and your passion for this topic. You're giving the right facts and responses... If it was only you speaking for the pro-war, this thread would be over by now.

Originally posted by Ranzid
Maybe all of that is true. Maybe he beats his prisoners, sets up rape camps, etc. And maybe it's a very good idea to remove him from power. But tell me this. Do you actually believe that the US government wants to remove him from power because the population of Iraq is suffering (BTW I don't think they are suffering that much) or because Iraq is a threat to the US? Do you really think that?

What pisses me off is that the US is saying all kind of crap just to make a good impression on people, and in the end it's all about the oil.

What you just claimed tries to exaggerate the American stereotype. Rather, though, your deep-seated bias has uncovered a certain Canadian stereotype. *shrugs* As much as I try to ignore the two, I can’t help but cringe when they are so blatantly displayed.

“What pisses me off is that the US is saying all kind of crap just to make a good impression on people, and in the end it's all about the oil.”

The old, “I’m going to be pissed at Americans because I believe they live only for themselves, while I’m over in an adjacent country that’s ABSOLUTELY PERFECT,” mindset. Of course, oil is a consideration, but by no means reason enough for war. The United States has Alaska, which remains vastly untapped. There are other various resources for oil.

And… try looking at the oil situation in relation to this… See, back when China was defeated by Japan, the country was split up into the “Spheres of Influence”. That is, China was partially under control by many other countries… similar to what might happen if Iraq where to take conquer the Middle East. After the war, the States requested that no commercial trade would be interfered with between China and other countries. Perhaps this doesn’t make much of an example, but realize that… despite the United States’ desire for maintaining economic health, its success does benefit the progress of the rest of the world. Dare you misinterpret…



“BTW I don't think they are suffering that much”

Aaagh, just because you don’t want to believe the US Government, you’ll toss all reason and empathy for other humans aside. I can’t imagine a single civilian in a Third-World Country is suffering enough under a tyrant’s sadistic iron fist to make a pure enough excuse to overthrow the corrupt dictator. Well… at least, that is… the people can’t be suffering that much!


The United States of America was under attack on September 11, 2001… as if you haven’t heard it enough. And, because this country (despite its size) could feel enough emotion for those that had lost their innocent kin, the United States retaliated against a known enemy in hopes of preventing more “hurt”. Personally, I can’t imagine another country having the boldness to actually launch an entire “War on Terrorism”. Really, large skirmishes against known terrorist cells should have started long ago.

Now, Iraq has been known to be a threat for a long time. Originally, Iraq tried invading the small Kuwait, but the States prevented that action for more reasons than just maintaining “oil trade”. It just happens to be that economic freedom of Kuwait was a large priority, and that the United States happened to benefit primarily in oil, above other products from the Mid-East. What, should we have let Kuwait to be conquered just because “oil” is not reason enough to intervene?

The United States of America is going to be doing the world a favor… again. The US of A has already given masses of aid to various country, heavily improved the world economy, and grants the ever-so-popular free commerce and civil rights that many foreigners flock to this country for.

Apparently, you’re not respecting the good of America enough. Because you can’t see a positive direct relation between the States and yourself, it’s easy to assume that the country isn’t performing well enough. Before you make another preemptive impression of this country’s actions… and the validity that they are not “arrogant” or “selfish”, try to imagine the world as it would be without the United States’ influence. Canada sure would be different…


And to wrap things up, it matters not the motivations of Bush, nor your feelings toward what you see as a greedy government. Rather, what matters are the outcomes of both options that America has. Act upon reasonable assumptions, or sit back and retaliate after tha damage has been done.

Perhaps, with Saddam, he'll only need one chance.

[The Duggler]

.... let me put that in a simple way

So you say, the US are right to attack Iraq because of some bad things they might have done or they will do. It's hard for me to believe what the US has to say about bad thing done by Irak, because of things like this: http://www.geocities.com/CapitolHil...s-iraq-lie.html

I guess this story is true and since you are so well educated, that you have all heard of it before, right? That's why I only posted the 1st link to come in my search, there is ton of other references.

And if it's right to attack for future threat, then, it's the begining of a huge war, after Iraq, who will it be? Korea? and on and on... you'll end up blowing half the planet, don't you think?

I will stand on my point that the primary interest in this war is the control of the middle east oil.

[gekko]

Yet again, Ranzid fails to back up any of his claims.

And your link doesn't work, not like it's a good one, but I'm interested to see what propaganda you found.

[The Duggler]

The original link

some more links

[Professor S]

Oh, the incubator story, back from 1990.

Ok fine, I'll give you that one even though it does come from a public geocities web address (that just screams credibility). How then do you respond the Iraqi rape camps in Kuwait during the occupation, the claims by Saddam's own mistress that he gains sexual pleasure from torturing prisoners, his attempted assassination of his own son, his gassing of his own people, the "disappearances" of "retired" public officials, his threats to use terrorism on the US, the fact that the majority of Iraqi refugees living in the US WANT to depose Saddam Hussein and many have established organizations to that effect (source: 60 Minutes), the fact his own people took up arms against him after the Gulf war and took a large portion of Southern Iraq before being crushed and more resulting "dissappearances".

I have asked you to give me a good reason why Saddam should be tolerated, and you have failed to give one. Good for you.

[The Duggler]

I'm not trying to prove Irak's innocence, I'm just telling you that if the US was able to do such a thing 10 years ago, that it's hard for me to believe anything they say about Iraq now, is that so hard to understand? And if you doubt the story (with the hundreds of links I just posted) than it proves me that you only listen to what you want to listen.

How then do you respond the Iraqi rape camps in Kuwait during the occupation, the claims by Saddam's own mistress that he gains sexual pleasure from torturing prisoners, his attempted assassination of his own son, his gassing of his own people, the "disappearances" of "retired" public officials, his threats to use terrorism on the US

Why then if all of this is true, that the US did a set up story like that?

[Professor S]

The story you quoted was from 1990. Not now. Check the dates.

Also, check any major news site now and see how you feel about the photos of mobile chemical and biological weapons facilities and recordings of Iraqi officials talking about removing evidence of "nerve agent".

And Iraq has still refused to provide any information on any of the chemical and biological agents that are STILL unaccounted for. Do you have any geocities websites that account for these "missing" items?

While you claim that I only hear what I want to hear, I contend that you are content to ignore any actual evidence of Iraq's weapons and bring up news thats 10 years old. You are going to be against the war no matter what evidence is found, because you will simply say that it was a "lie"and any information that you quote to back up your statements will be "fact". Hans Blix has repeatedly expressed his displeasure of Iraq's cooperation with the inspections and has even said that its "Five minutes to Midnight" for Iraq and is pleading with them to cooperate.

trying to measure what it will take to convince you that military action is needed in Iraq is irrelevant, because there is no amount of evidence that will sway your opinion.

Just do one thing for me, as I have asked repeatedly, and give me one good reason why a psychotic dictator like Saddam should remain in power, when even his own people who have escaped his country are the most adamant about his removal, and who is a direct threat to the US via supplying terrorist organizations with avenues to kill thousands if not tens of thousands. Just give me ONE GOOD REASON.

[The Duggler]

IT'S NOT YOUR DAMN BUSINESS!

[Professor S]

LOL!!!!!

Ahhhhhhh, I love it.

If your reasons for keeping Iraq in power are none of our business, then the US's reasons for removing him are none of yours.

NEXT

[The Duggler]

Look, we can argue as long as we want, we won't change our idea on the subject. I guess we'll have to wait and see. The US is going to attack we all know that, what the result will be? That's to see. But if you guys stop after Irak, I'll be right (because you will have oil control in that region) but if you continue on with all the other countries that poses a threat, than you will be right. So the countdown begins.

[gekko]

Originally posted by Ranzid
But if you guys stop after Irak, I'll be right (because you will have oil control in that region) but if you continue on with all the other countries that poses a threat, than you will be right.

You really are that naive.

[Professor S]

Once again, only about 20% of US oil comes from the Middle East. Now how much do you suppose comes from Iraq? NONE. ITS CALLED SANCTIONS. We have plenty of places to get oil, we don't need Iraq. Plus, right now the US is one of the cheaper countries to get oil. I'm in Canada now and the price of gas is outrageous, and its even worse in Europe.

So if you are going to continue arguing your points on this thread, at least try and keep them moderately researched and intelligent instead of just trying to convince everyone that the US is only in this for oil. Oil is the least of our concerns when it comes to Iraq.

And I notice you still haven't contended any of my points I illustrated earlier. What do you think about the evidence Powell displayed against Iraq? Do you think those trucks were delivering MILK?

[The Duggler]

Oil is the least of our concerns when it comes to Iraq

Humm are you sure?

I researched a bit to get some information about where the US takes its oil, but I didn't find much, do you have some good link about that? I also looked for where the oil is mostly produced. I think that Iraq is 2nd behind Saudi Arabia. But I saw that on 1 site, so i'm not sure. But to say what I just quoted is a little bit exaggerated I think.

And I notice you still haven't contended any of my points I illustrated earlier. What do you think about the evidence Powell displayed against Iraq? Do you think those trucks were delivering MILK?

I already told you what I think of what the US has to say about Iraq. The US credebility has taken a big hit with that incubator story of the early 90's. And why, if the US are able to film those mobile laboratories, that they can't guide the UN to them? As long as the UN hasn't confirmed those, I won't believe it.

Like I said earlier, we could argue as long as we can, it won't change our position on the subject, we have to wait and see. So the countdown continues.

[gekko]

Originally posted by Ranzid
Humm are you sure?

Hmm... have you ever taken a minute out of your anti-America BS post to think? If we wanted Iraq's oil, we would've taken it long ago.

I researched

Thank God. Can you do this for your other claims too? Oh, and avoid Geocities, its not any credible information.

The US credebility has taken a big hit with that incubator story of the early 90's.

No, you're trying your very hardest to find a reason why you can not believe the US so you can pretend your argument has some basis, which it doesn't. The US credability didn't fall, only in your mind. And coming from someone who believes Iraq and Geocities over the US, you're not one to talk on credability.

And why, if the US are able to film those mobile laboratories, that they can't guide the UN to them?

You want the US to try to follow a couple semitrucks all over the country which look exactly like the thousands of others traveling of the exact same roads? Please tell me you're joking.

As long as the UN hasn't confirmed those, I won't believe it.

Don't kid yourself, once they prove that you'll claim it's a lie and look for some other reason to go against the US. Hans Blix's report proved a lot of the US claims to be true, and yet you continue to say it's all a lie. Give me a break.