Religion - Page 7

Joeiss · 01-19-2003, 03:47 PM

The bible I guess has no contradictions... But there are alot of things that could be metaphorical, not real in it... I don't remember any examples, but I watched a cool program on it on A&E!

Almansurah · 01-19-2003, 03:50 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by quiet mike

The Bible has no contradictions!
What Almansurah posted is very hard to follow if you don't know the Bible. But if you read all 4 gospels, you will see that they don't argue of who was at the tomb, how the stone was moved, but they look from different perspectives. One only follows Maria Magdalene, the others follow two or more of the women that went that Sunday morning. And even though it was told 4 different ways, it was dawn. And I can go on about all the things that were posted and show you how it's just a different perspective on the same thing.

The Qu'raan was written by more than one person but since it was something memorized word by word, they all knew the same exact thing.
The Bible was also written by more persons, but they each wrote the way they saw or heared (Luke) the things (in the Gospels). But there is no contradiction anywhere in the bible, where it is said something about an event and being contradicted in another place. It is the same thing happening the same way, viewed from a different perspective.

The bible has no contradictions? Puh-Lease, the bible is full of contradictions, I state again, if you want me to post more, I will. And i've challenged you to post contradictions in the Qur'an, and InshAllah by the will of Allah, they will be refuted with ease, and with explanation, and not by stating that's not a contradiction since it's misinterpreted.

God doesn't need 4 books to look from different perspectives, God only needs to set one book with 1 perspective. What a hard religion, if I have to search through so much books, and then get confused in the middle. Doesn't that prove something?

The Qur'an is just one book, available anywhere in the world.

How can the Bible be the word of God, when it's been tampered with, and set from different perspectives? Cant you see how your books have been tampered with, and set rise to all these contradictions?

Joeiss · 01-19-2003, 06:17 PM

The Christian bible was inspired by God... I do not think that anybody said that he wrote it or something.

Lord Germano · 01-19-2003, 07:00 PM

I, like quiet mike, am I penticostal christian. Yes, I believe that my religion is right.

My church's website

I may be back latter

Smuggletrain · 01-20-2003, 07:18 AM

I'm a satanist. Before any of you jump on a bandwagon just let me explain
something. Satanist do not worship the devil, those
are devil worshippers and something entirely different from
satanism. Basically the whole concept is the view of "Do what
thou will and let that be the extent of the law." Every time I see
a person claiming to be a satanist on TV and spouting on about
Anton LeVey I start laughing. True satanism isn't something
you pick up a book to learn. It all boils down to let your conscience
be your guide. I have never and don't foresee myself dancing
around with a goat skull on my head praising the devil.Satanism
is kind of between agnostics and atheists, we just don't file
a lawsuit every time we see the word God.

The Christian church really pisses me off. How can they be
against Halloween and yet support Christmas and Easter? All of
them are pagan holidays. Halloween = Samhain,
Christmas = Yule, Easter = Beltane. Christmas was actually
denounced by the church and banned in England for years. It
wasn't celebrated in America until the late 1800's.

Also, how in the hell can homosexuals be allowed into a church
when their lifestyle is specifically denounced in the Bible? The
Bible also states that the man is the head of the household. Not
many of todays women would be so supportive of the church if
that rule was enforced. I see so many people in the church
drinking, smoking, and fornicating Saturday night and praising
God Sunday morning. Asking Jesus for salvation is only part of
being saved. You must make an active attempt to refrain from sin.
I don't think God likes people playing pick and choose with his
rules.

As for Angrist, as a church I believe the Jehovah's Witness is
closer to having Christianity right than the other churches. The
only spots I'm unclear on are:

1) The belief that the antichrist came to Earth in 1914 or somewhere there-abouts and

2) Knowing which people are going to Heaven.

Feel free to explain these two to me because I am actually
interested to know.

As for the Muslim belief, I really don't know enough about it to
make an informed decision. However if you believe flying jets into
skyscrapers assures a place in the afterworld then you are wrong.
I know there are extremists in every religion and I'm hoping that
they are the exception rather than the rule.

I know this was a long post but I could talk about this for hours.
None of my comments were meant as personal digs at anyone
and I hope they are not mistaken as such. Everyone is entitled to
their own personal beliefs.

Professor S · 01-20-2003, 09:10 AM

1) Anton LaVey didn't worship Satan (not sure if that was what you were implying, but if it was you are quite wrong)

2) Everything you are saying basically repeats LaVeyan Satanism, so whether you read his book or not you are influenced by his ideaology.

3) A true Satanist wouldn't give a crap about Christianity or go to all the trouble to scream holy hell about it and point out its Pagan roots. They are common knowledge as the Catholic Church has made a long time practice of encorporating pagan ritual into Christianity. Why do you think Catholicism has all the ritual to begin with?

I am not a Satanist, but I am a student of the occult, and of all the cults out there, Satanism is the one I find the most laughable. Its basically a religion based on being a complete and utter ***hole.

As foir the whole Bible vs. Q'uran argument, if you think that EITHER of those texts haven't been changed numerous times of the course of several millenia you're BOTH kidding yourselves. They are cololections of parables for one to live one's life by, and NOT meant to be taken completely literally. It has been shown that those who do take them literally tend to act in ways that are completely against their own text's teachings.

Rndm_Perfection · 01-20-2003, 05:07 PM

I was born a Christian, but I have my doubts. As well, I think it naive to think that all believe in the same God, so long as they believe in one. As well, believing in God is one thing, but practicing the correct forms of worship and maintaining spiritual/moral values is what is important if someone truly believes that it is what is necessary to go to heaven.

I have my doubts, and they are reasonable. I'm just thinking how a buch of guys collaborated and decided to write up a bunch of stories which they thought God had called out to them.

There was always a "leader of the pack". And, there were always people thinking up reasons for why they are living. Thus, a creation, whether by God or many gods would have been thought up. What makes you believe that your one god, having come from one spot in "Middle-Eastish area", is more correct than the numerous gods of other histories?

Everyone has their own beliefs, and it is completely impossible to tell which is correct... or even if all of them are incorrect.

Ultimately, I greatly believe that the Bible's secondary, if not primary, purpose was to maintain order in a civilization. If everyone believed in a higher being and thought that they had to do good in their life to have a wonderful afterlife, then fewer people would be unhappy. Take, for instance, the fact that it is a sin to steal from your neighbor. Personally, I believe that a human would have higher value of their items, than a god's value of someone working for themselves.

*shrugs* If there is one thing that makes me believe in a higher power, it's "The Bible Code".

Almansurah · 01-20-2003, 05:40 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by The Strangler

As foir the whole Bible vs. Q'uran argument, if you think that EITHER of those texts haven't been changed numerous times of the course of several millenia you're BOTH kidding yourselves. They are cololections of parables for one to live one's life by, and NOT meant to be taken completely literally. It has been shown that those who do take them literally tend to act in ways that are completely against their own text's teachings.

Yeh Yeh, and i'm the president of Mars and the sky aint Blue.

Bring forth a mistake in the Qur'an, bring anything to show me it isn't the word of God? Supply the firepower along with the words, supply the proof of your statements, show me some claims so I can believe you.

The Qur'an has not been changed. Check any Qur'an copy in the world, and you will notice this, compare this to any Qur'an copy in a library [Check the oldest one too], and you will notice they are all the same.

I dont think you seem to know the Arabic language well, but basically it's easily memorisable, infact the Qur'an is very easy to memorise, just like getting a song stuck in your head. Many people know the Qur'an by heart, and that's how it was transmitted, and then written. Even to this day, there are MANY people who know the whole Qur'an by heart.

God's words are meant to be taken literally, he is our Lord, our sustainer, our providor, the Omnipresent, Omnipotent, there is nothing like them, so WHY wouldn't he want us to obey his words?

The Qur'an is a easy book to understand, and we Muslims do take it as literally, whatever it says we must follow, if we dont have a valid excuse for not following it, then we are gaining ourselves sins.....

Shiz · 01-20-2003, 05:43 PM

im jewish... thought i'd let everyone know

Professor S · 01-20-2003, 07:09 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Almansurah
Yeh Yeh, and i'm the president of Mars and the sky aint Blue.

Bring forth a mistake in the Qur'an, bring anything to show me it isn't the word of God? Supply the firepower along with the words, supply the proof of your statements, show me some claims so I can believe you.

The Qur'an has not been changed. Check any Qur'an copy in the world, and you will notice this, compare this to any Qur'an copy in a library [Check the oldest one too], and you will notice they are all the same.

I dont think you seem to know the Arabic language well, but basically it's easily memorisable, infact the Qur'an is very easy to memorise, just like getting a song stuck in your head. Many people know the Qur'an by heart, and that's how it was transmitted, and then written. Even to this day, there are MANY people who know the whole Qur'an by heart.

God's words are meant to be taken literally, he is our Lord, our sustainer, our providor, the Omnipresent, Omnipotent, there is nothing like them, so WHY wouldn't he want us to obey his words?

The Qur'an is a easy book to understand, and we Muslims do take it as literally, whatever it says we must follow, if we dont have a valid excuse for not following it, then we are gaining ourselves sins.....

You are going about things backward. If you want me to believe that the Qur'an is true, you have to prove it to ME, I don't need to disprove it. To me its just ba collection of words and is as valid as Norse Mythology, the Old Testament or Greek Mythology. It may be absolute truth to you, but its not to a whole lot of people to say the least.

By the way, if you do take the Qur'an literally, then you must agree with the whole "killing of infidels (read: anyone who ain't muslim) will gain you acceptance to nirvana and fifty whores sucking your knob while you eat a steak sandwich". So, I suppose you and great friends with Osama Bin Ladin and are planning a suicide bombing as I write this.

As for memorization, thats hilarious. The stories in the Qur'an were told word of mouth long before they were put to paper. This is when changes are made. Has it been changed as many times as the Bible? Probably not, but its still 99% likely that it has changed over the course of several thousand years.

But keep on spouting about how the Qur'an has never changed and is the literal word of God. Its much easier to simply repeat what you've been told rather than actually think for yourself.

Shadow_Link · 01-20-2003, 07:43 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by The Strangler
You are going about things backward. If you want me to believe that the Qur'an is true, you have to prove it to ME, I don't need to disprove it. To me its just ba collection of words and is as valid as Norse Mythology, the Old Testament or Greek Mythology. It may be absolute truth to you, but its not to a whole lot of people to say the least.

By the way, if you do take the Qur'an literally, then you must agree with the whole "killing of infidels (read: anyone who ain't muslim) will gain you acceptance to nirvana and fifty whores sucking your knob while you eat a steak sandwich". So, I suppose you and great friends with Osama Bin Ladin and are planning a suicide bombing as I write this.

As for memorization, thats hilarious. The stories in the Qur'an were told word of mouth long before they were put to paper. This is when changes are made. Has it been changed as many times as the Bible? Probably not, but its still 99% likely that it has changed over the course of several thousand years.

But keep on spouting about how the Qur'an has never changed and is the literal word of God. Its much easier to simply repeat what you've been told rather than actually think for yourself.

I'll be back to comment later and answer other questions, but just a brief post first. (I've been very busy lately)...

First off, your post shows how naive you are about Islam, and the contents of the Qur'aan. Even non-muslims aknowledge the beauty of the Qur'aan, and say how it IS a true miracle, and the true religion, yet don't convert due to some reason or another. I suggest you actually read the Qur'aan, or learn about it your own way. I think it is quite patently obvious you haven't really read anything about it, yet to have the gaul to make something up like the 'killing of infidels' will get you into heaven, is in the Qur'aan... That joke about planning a suicide bombing wasn't funny either. If you want to know something, just ask, instead of showing how you don't know anything about Islam. Suicide is TOTALLY forbidden in Islam, and nowhere in the Qur'aan does it say it is allowed. In fact, it is said that the method you use to kill yourself with, will be what will used to kill you repeatedly in Hell.

Your argument is pretty weak Strangler, there is absolutely NO proof at all that the Qur'aan has been changed. I think the correct way to go about it is if YOU try to find proof that it has been changed, (like how it is easy to find proof that other holy books have been changed), since you made the original statement that it had been. I think the challenge HAS been set for you... Just try and find anything different in any and evry Qur'aan in existance, it will be utterly hopeless, because many have TRIED, and FAILED, and I find it amusing that you're probably the only person that refutes the statement that the Qur'aan is indeed in the form it was when it was revealed. Even Priests, people who have dedicated so much time and effort, conclude that there is nothing changed within the Qur'aan, and that is why many of them actually convert to Islam...

But don't take my word for it, please read the links provided. Within them, the writer gives a perfectly acceptable reason as to why the Qur'aan is still in an untouched form, you may find this in the Use and Mention of Words section and everything after it in the first link...

I'll just refer you to this site, if you have time, please read the two articles (I'm not saying you should or anything, but I'd like to know that when you do ask a question or something, you'd have read the articles I've presented first)... Warning, the articles are long, but, to me atleast, they are very interesting, and a must read for those unfamilair with the Qur'aan and Islam:

First one... (I recommend you ATLEAST read everything from 'Use and Mention of Words')

Second one...

I'll be back in a few days/one week, and hopefully answer any questions outstanding.

Bond · 01-20-2003, 07:52 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Shadow_Link

I'll be back in a few days/one week, and hopefully answer any questions outstanding.

Yeah, how about my questions sir.

Professor S · 01-20-2003, 10:07 PM

Shadow Link, I never said anything about Islam not being a valid religion. It is. But its not any more valid than any other religion in the world, and that is what I have a problem with in Almansurah's posts. He screams about how Islam is the one true religion while all others are crap.

As for proof of violence against "Infidels" in the Qur'an? Here's a couple of quotes:

"IX. 5-6: Kill those who join other gods with God wherever you may find them."

"IV.76: Those who believe fight in the cause of God."

"IV.89: They desire that you should disbelieve as they have disbelieved, so that you might be (all) alike; therefore take not from among them friends until they fly (their homes) in Allah's way; but if they turn back, then seize them and kill them wherever you find them, and take not from among them a friend or a helper."

"IV.74: Let those who fight in the cause of God who barter the life of this world for that which is to come; for whoever fights on God's path, whether he is killed or triumphs, We will give him a handsome reward."

"VIII.39-42: Say to the Infidels: if they desist from their unbelief, what is now past shall be forgiven; but if they return to it, they have already before them the doom of the ancients! Fight then against them till strife be at an end, and the religion be all of it God's."

Now I repeat, should the Qur'an be taken literally? Should faithful muslims search out "unbelievers" and kill them wherever they find them because God will reward them in life or death? Do you want to contradict me again after showing the proof you have asked me for?

BTW, I read some of what you posted including the usage of words portion. I'm glad to see that every word was perfected so that we know exactly what the Qur'an means when it repeatedly uses the word "kill".

As for non-violence and anti-oppression against women mentioned ealier in this thread:

[4:34] "The men are made responsible for the women, and GOD has endowed them with certain qualities, and made them the bread earners. The righteous women will cheerfully accept this arrangement, since it is GOD's commandment, and honor their husbands during their absence. If you experience rebellion from the women, you shall first talk to them, then (you may use negative incentives like) deserting them in bed, then you may (as a last alternative) beat them. If they obey you, you are not permitted to transgress against them. GOD is Most High, Supreme."

Now I understand that the true meaning of this text is that if a man is "forced" to beat his wife, it shows a failure on his part and therefore is more in symbolic favor of the woman, but that doesn't save the woman from a beating at the hands of an incompetant husband or keep her from being forced into a certain lifestyle.

Now I have nothing against Islam on the whole as a religion, but the rhetoric does lend itself to inspiring zeal so much as to create violence at times, and I believe this has to do very much with the literal interpretation of the Qur'an by some sects. To take the Qur'am literally to to endorse the death of all Christians, Jews and other non-muslim people.

Angrist · 01-21-2003, 03:18 AM

Smuggletrain, it's true that a lot of believes within christianity have a lot of 'rituals' that have their origin in different religions (Trinity, Christmas, burning hell,...), but is that the reason to abandon the whole christianity? Why don't you find a religion that doesn't have all those false believes??

Lord Germano · 01-21-2003, 03:31 AM

Eactly smuggletrain. To say something like that is a big fat generalisation, with all the diferent branches (The bulk of which stated in quiet mikes post)