Religions

[Teuthida]

Originally Posted by Professor S

As for evolution, I definitely think evolution in a species exists, and there is a strong chance that evolution between species takes place, but I'm not convinced of that. There are a lot of holes in Darwinism that need to be worked out. I'm not anti-Darwin, but I'm also not a blindly devout Darwinist like Richard Dawkins.

My biggest problem with people like Dawkins are that they are so devout in their faith that they lose their objectivity, and at that point they cease to be scientists, and become evangelists. Essentially, he is everything he says he hates, just the perspective is reversed.

I only ever hear the term "Darwinism" from folks who question evolution, equating it to a belief with Darwin as a prophet of sorts. Dawkins is a bit of a dick. I'll give you that.

Theres a funny show on netflix called "Animals that Defy Evolution". Its about some scientist guy who believed in evolution but then saw the light and now is trying to disprove it with stuff that doesnt make any sense. Hes things like, if theres a giraffe sitting there and it sees a zebra, hes just gonna chill, but if it sees a lion it runs away. Evolution didnt tell it to run away, god gave it the ability to distinguish between predators and other animals. And if god didnt make whales right on the spot like they are, theres no way it would have survived through evolution. Hes pretty much says that if god didnt make every animal it would have died.

Ah, I've heard about him. His doctorate is in dentistry.

[Typhoid]

It is a current statistical impossibility that life spontaneously originated on it's own. Those that choose not to believe in God have tried to answer this by presenting theories such as "planet seeding by aliens" (who created the aliens?) to "we just don't know yet, but it wasn't God".

Not to farm back 18 (or whatever) posts, but that's not entirely accurate.


I'll try break this down simply. I don't mean that as an insult, I just meant so it's as easy as possible for everyone to understand - and to try not to sidetrack myself.

I watched a show on the probable origins of life in the Universe a while back, and it made amazingly valid, and exceptional points.

They found elements of organic material on asteroids floating through space, meaning that asteroid impact can be a very likely cause of life. Not just on Earth, but everywhere. Asteroids are like the seed bags of life, and planets are the Earth for it to grow in.

Now that leaves the question of "well why isn't life everywhere, then?"
Maybe life isn't possible everywhere, but the possibility for life is everywhere, and life just happens to be a statistical inevitability of circumstance. (Sort of like Mold! Mold won't grow on every loaf of bread you have that goes bad, but if you give mold the conditions to grow, it always will.)

If you go dig in the middle of the Gobi desert, you might not find a plant, or even any traces of plants - but there are sure as shit plants on Earth, despite the fact you might not have found any in the 50 feet where you're standing in the Gobi desert.

Just because one may scatter seeds everywhere on the ground, doesn't mean the ground will be littered with plants; but just because there aren't any plants doesn't mean there aren't any seeds. You dig?


Edit:

You are forgetting the most important ingredient in baking a cake. THE BAKER. Without him, there is no cake.

But what if the ingredients for that cake were floating in space under their own power, and came together randomly, over billions of years to form a cake? a cake can't bake on it's own, you say?

What if the materials for the cake's oven were also spontaneously formed after billions of years of random coincidences, and inside of that oven a cake also formed. The oven then cooks the cake.

Now, I can see how the cake would say "How the fuck did I get here? I'm just a cake. I wasn't anything before, but now I am a delicious treat. How did I come out of billions of years of nothingness?"

See, the cake can't comprehend the reality of being a cake, because it is simply only a cake. In the cake's mind, the oven always was. The oven created the cake. But in reality the oven was also spontaneously formed after billions of years of perfect scenarios.
It doesn't understand that billions of years of swirling gasses and pressure can have nearly limitless possibilities.

Now, you might think "Wow, it's amazing that an oven was formed by simply gas, pressure and billions of years. And it's even more amazing that a cake was formed inside of that oven."

It might seemed far fetched to you, pastry-lover. "Why aren't there more cakes, then?" you might say.
Well since the spontaneous oven/cake was a series of perfect events, take the lack of other cakes as the sheer mindboggling fraction of a chance that came together for that one cake to form in the first place.

--------
While I try to be spiritual, I don't believe in creationism. By no means does that diminish the amazing happenings to take place for simply me to be here. I believe in the power of man. To give in to a higher power in the sense of creationism; I feel, diminishes the intelligence and sheer capability of man.

I like religion because it gives people piece of mind, and teaches good values. The one reason I don't like "religion" is because it holds people back from learning about the Universe. This is the struggle I always have.

I always think, if religious people are so sure there is a God, what's the harm in being knowledgable about the Universe. Surely he must have created everything, so what's the harm in studying more of his creations? Astronomers don't study planets and deep space to say "Nope, still haven't seen the face of God", so in that sense I don't understand the medieval divide that still remains between the two.


if anything I'm thrown off that religion suddenly ceased changing it's tone. Religions typically changed to encompass new understandings. World was flat, etc. But somewhere along the line, as massive un-repairable rip happened between learning about the stars, and believing in God. At one time, they were the exact same thing. Until somewhere along the line one person said "Hey, I'm afraid you won't find a God up there, don't look there." and someone else said "Hey buddy, I just want to know what shape the world is."

[Professor S]

Originally Posted by Teuthida

I only ever hear the term "Darwinism" from folks who question evolution, equating it to a belief with Darwin as a prophet of sorts. Dawkins is a bit of a dick. I'll give you that.

By Darwinism I am referring to those that have full faith in Darwin's theory without exception. You can believe in evolution without taking everything Darwin believed as fact. I believe in evolution, but I am not a Darwinist.

And Typhoid, I appreciate the discussion, but I'm not sure your contribution addressed my points. The statistical impossibility of life originating spontaneously still exists whether from a meteor or on planet or the result co-mingling ingredients of a celestial pastry.

[Typhoid]

And Typhoid, I appreciate the discussion, but I'm not sure your contribution addressed my points. The statistical impossibility of life originating spontaneously still exists whether from a meteor or on planet or the result co-mingling ingredients of a celestial pastry.

My point was more that it's nearly impossible for humans to comprehend things beyond our lifetime. We're finite creatures trying to comprehend infinite possibilities.

I'll try prove what I'm saying a lot simpler.


How did your parents meet?
Did they live in the same city?
Did their parents move from separate cities to meet in 1 singular location, on one specific chance-happening?

Now go back further, what about your grandparents? Possibly they came from overseas.
Not to mention you were the winning sperm, and so was every other living person. That in itself is an amazing accomplishment for every living person. You fought for your right to exist before you even knew it.

Now let's just say one of your great grandparents didn't get on that boat, or your mom didn't go to that McDonald's that day and meet your dad - how different things would be for you - You wouldn't exist. Granted, you wouldn't know about it. But in going back 100+ years, there have already been an amazing amount of spontaneous coincidences for simply you to be alive. Now what about every other person who has ever existed. Now what about every single living thing that has ever existed. Now think about the specific location of every single planet, and floating body in space. If one of them is even a millionth of a fraction off (of say a collision, for example), billions of years down the line everything might be entirely different.


Now, it's a hell of a lot easier to say "wow, that sounds amazingly impossible. Someone must have controlled all of that", than it is to say "Wow. Imagine how insanely minute of a chance my sole existence is even going back only 100 years."




Edit:
*Places tongue in cheek*

What you (Not you, you) have to grasp to really understand it, is that humans aren't important. Life isn't about us. We're simply animals. We can just comprehend that, is all. A lot of us aren't okay with being animals - that we're better than they are. And in a lot of human-viewed ways we totally are. But in the grand sceme of the Universe we're just an organism on a small blue planet floating around an insignificant star among a throng of other suns on a non-descript arm of a galaxy just like countless others.

But I digress...

[TheSlyMoogle]

On an off topic I wish we could go back and review some of the old religion threads we had several years back. I just remember some of the stuff we talked about then, and see how much we have all learned and grown since.

Anyway, I kind of agree with Prof here.

Either way, life as a whole, is a wonderful thing. However it happened, it did.

I stopped trying to figure it out, or trying to disprove a higher power. I rarely ever discuss it either, but will with people who generally aren't closed in their beliefs.

I just enjoy people who are constantly questioning. At the end of the day you can't know for certain, science or anyone really. Which is why death is the next great adventure they say. I hope that's true

[Bond]

Wow, this thread exploded.

Originally Posted by Vampyr

My family is religious, but not overly so. I've never even been to church a day in my life.

They just believe in a god - for me that's enough to cross the line into strangeness. That someone could believe that, with not a shred of evidence. It's just so obviously a fairy tale to me - written by people for other people.

That's what I mean when I make the Santa Clause analogy. I feel like we, as a people, should have grown out of this by now. I know that's probably very offense to people who believe - I'm basically calling them stupid - but I just cannot grasp how someone can believe this stuff.

I would encourage you to read and/or listen to Alister McGrath and John Lennox. Both are Oxford professors and extremely distinguished in their fields. Both are also Christian apologists (people who defend Christianity on a rational basis), in the same vein of G.K. Chesterton and C.S. Lewis.

My intention is by no means to persuade or convert you, but rather to show you the best of the other side. I'd be happy to link you to a few specific lectures as well.

[Seth]

I'm totally stressing over finals and papers due, but I want to take just a quick moment to thank God for all he has done for me. Even in my perpetual stupidity, he has been merciful. All of the scripturally loaded words I have to praise Him with are understandably antagonistic given the nature of an open discussion about religion, but I feel at this moment I want to share the transformative influence that humbly approaching my creator has enacted in my life. My attitude towards life's obstacles has not been proactively beneficial in a lot of cases, but in this moment, reflecting on my blessings(appropriate time of year) I find that as always, the entirety of my felt joy is derived solely from His love.
His love is evident everywhere, and I really appreciate the people in my life who have demonstrated this actualization. Praise God! I find myself stepping back from institutionalized apathy and remembering that religion is completely an individual experience, and only real when the matters of self are replaced by a more acute understanding of collective needs.

It's disgraceful to recollect how I have neglected people who aren't of my immediate family and close friends. Even the closest people to me I have betrayed through lack of empathy. Part of it has to do with accepting and loving myself for who I am. Whether altruistic actions, in this light, can remain definitively unselfish, is irrelevant to me considering I can perceive an emotional and spiritual need in my community. Thank God for bringing clarity back into my life! Whether or not gases collapsing in univeral grandeur as the form of life's origin is the case, I know through my own experience that there is an omniscient creator who's love for creation superscedes the intercessory doubt that I have nurtured through personal and communal neglect.
God is love. We praise Him for his inalienable nature, and look past the stunted interpretations of people who's influence tends to eclipse the vast examples of his goodness.

Thank you all for your insights on this thread's topic.

[Vampyr]

Originally Posted by Seth

I'm totally stressing over finals and papers due, but I want to take just a quick moment to thank God for all he has done for me. Even in my perpetual stupidity, he has been merciful. All of the scripturally loaded words I have to praise Him with are understandably antagonistic given the nature of an open discussion about religion, but I feel at this moment I want to share the transformative influence that humbly approaching my creator has enacted in my life. My attitude towards life's obstacles has not been proactively beneficial in a lot of cases, but in this moment, reflecting on my blessings(appropriate time of year) I find that as always, the entirety of my felt joy is derived solely from His love.
His love is evident everywhere, and I really appreciate the people in my life who have demonstrated this actualization. Praise God! I find myself stepping back from institutionalized apathy and remembering that religion is completely an individual experience, and only real when the matters of self are replaced by a more acute understanding of collective needs.

It's disgraceful to recollect how I have neglected people who aren't of my immediate family and close friends. Even the closest people to me I have betrayed through lack of empathy. Part of it has to do with accepting and loving myself for who I am. Whether altruistic actions, in this light, can remain definitively unselfish, is irrelevant to me considering I can perceive an emotional and spiritual need in my community. Thank God for bringing clarity back into my life! Whether or not gases collapsing in univeral grandeur as the form of life's origin is the case, I know through my own experience that there is an omniscient creator who's love for creation superscedes the intercessory doubt that I have nurtured through personal and communal neglect.
God is love. We praise Him for his inalienable nature, and look past the stunted interpretations of people who's influence tends to eclipse the vast examples of his goodness.

Thank you all for your insights on this thread's topic.

Alright, going to ask a question here that I've always wanted answered, but was too afraid of conflict to ask a religious person I know in real life.

Why do you think god has chosen to be merciful and assist you in your life? Why you, a relatively privileged person living in a first world country with access to opportunity, food, and education? Why does he spend time helping you, while he seemingly ignores the masses of children around the world who literally starve to death, probably the most painful death imaginable?

I'm just really curious as to how this gets rationalized.

[TheGame]

Originally Posted by Vampyr

Alright, going to ask a question here that I've always wanted answered, but was too afraid of conflict to ask a religious person I know in real life.

Why do you think god has chosen to be merciful and assist you in your life? Why you, a relatively privileged person living in a first world country with access to opportunity, food, and education? Why does he spend time helping you, while he seemingly ignores the masses of children around the world who literally starve to death, probably the most painful death imaginable?

I'm just really curious as to how this gets rationalized.

That's like asking what is good without evil, what is life without death, or what is beautiful without ugly. The fact is, as long as you're alive you have something to be thankful for. Just because our society has access to more perks then another one doesn't mean that god hasn't been merciful to the other society relative to some other circumstance.

And yeah, obviously there's a bottom of the barrel, but I think that is not having experienced life to begin with. We should be happy to be in a position where we can bless other people and excersize that power.

[Seth]

When I was living in Thailand this question was pressing.
In the Bible, evil is identified repeatedly, and regularly defined as having no regard for the poor.
In some ways I feel that by simple passivity, the extreme poverty that is rampant in much of the world, is in part my doing, and consequently my responsibility.

Matthew 25:31 talks about this concept of those blessed with ability(whatever their's is) and those who are in trouble, and need help. The people gifted disproportionately are expected to not show contempt for the poor and needy.
Jesus said in verse 35, 'for I was hungry and you gave Me food; I was thirsty and you gave Me drink; I was a stranger and you took Me in; I was naked and you clothed Me; I was sick and you visited Me; I was in prison and you came to Me.'

He identifies these acts of goodness as the dividing 'behaviour' which will bring one close to God and eventual relief from the pains(it is painful to share in the misery of others) of this world.
Freedom of choice right? If a few greedy men extort a nation, or an economic class, it is their right as free individuals to exercise contempt for others, for their own gain.
The book of Matthew basically recounts Jesus' admonition of what we could presently identify as bloated religious 'saints', outwardly demonstrating reverant iconography and pious pretension, who perform actions through vanity as opposed to respect and love for God. Verse 40, 'Assuredly, I say to you, inas much as you did it to one of the least of these My brethren, you did it to Me.'

I don't have control over others, just the personal control that through living rightly, I can influence positively. The fact that sin is in the world, and enough people with too much material wealth tend to exploit the situation of vulnerable masses, is addressed as being part of the temporal experience that sin as brought about on this planet. I believe the actions of everyone on this planet are universal testaments to the goodness of God, whether people are blinded by sin or uplifted through their submition to divine love. It is a choice after all and we are free to exercise.
The gospel books are powerful literature. I love how God becomes approachable throughout my stressful days, if I take a bit of time and devote it to open mindedly reading the Bible and praising Him. Through acknowledgement of His power I can testify to a change in my character and the way I interact with others.

[Vampyr]

Eh, neither one of you are really answering my question.

I'm an atheist, and I'm also a very thankful person. I'm thankful for my family, for my friends, for my relative wealth, for my fiance, for my cat. I'm a very fortunate person, relative to others.

The point is that I'm not thankful to anyone in particular - I'm just in general thankful to have what I have, and to have been as fortunate as I have been. I'm kind to others and I donate to charity, so in that sense I'm using some of what I have to help others. All while being an atheist and not bringing a god into the equation.

I'm asking specifically, why do you thank god for what you have. Why do you think he expended his power to help you, but not use it to feed someone who is starving?

In a similar thought, most religious people say that praying to god helps to heal their loved ones who are sick. If that's true, why is god only capable of healing things that modern medicine is already capable of? For example, I've never seen or heard of anyone having their limbs regrow. However, if some experimental procedure were to be developed that had say, a 10% chance of regrowing someone's limbs, I'm sure religious people would start praying, and when it worked they would thank god.

Also, I see sporting events all the time where a player will have a great game and his or her team will win. At the end, they usually thank god.

How do they justify believing that god helped them win a football game, but he isn't saving starving people?

These kinds of religious people confuse me way more than deist like Professor S. While I think his belief in something where this no proof is quite strange, I think he views god more as a force of nature than a benevolent father figure.

[Typhoid]

I'll sort of add to Vamp's question, because this - too is something I've wanted to ask (it's practically the exact same thing, but I just can't ask my religious family, they're family after all).


I want to know how you cope with the idea that you pray to the God to heal your family that he made sick in the first place. Do you really believe God to be so fickle? If God made them sick, and God makes them healthy, why pray in the first place. It seems to me that God acts entirely randomly - kid on an anthill. Praying didn't stop the sickness from coming, and countless times praying hasn't healed anyone. In fact, everything people typically pray for is the result of God doing something terrible to their lives/to them/to a loved one. Unless you pray every night against every single disease you currently don't have in order to ensure you won't wake up tomorrow as a leper with polio and a sore throat.

And if God has a plan for everyone, and things are pre-determined (Destiny and all that), sin isn't really a big deal, is it? If life is pre-determined it was God's plan for those people to sin - or else they would have never sinned in the first place.

Life cannot be pre-determined if you have a choice, and if life is pre-determined, nothing you actually decide is a 'choice', it has all already been chosen for you by God.

[KillerGremlin]

I know why my cynical response is going to be...

I'm gonna see if I can find some journals that might support the observation.

[KillerGremlin]

I have a question too that you all can ponder while I ponder my previous comment.

Are all humans evil?

Let me expand. I have a fascination with serial killers and people with whacked out perceptions of reality. You might think that someone like John Wayne Gacy, who killed and raped 33 teenage boys is probably going to burn in Hell. After all...killing and raping 33 boys seems to go against one or two of the Ten Commandments. But, upon further analysis, we see some interesting things. For starters, John Wayne Gacy has serious brain damage. This is of the genetic variety, and is completely out of his control. This type of brain damage predispositions certain people to have strong antisocial tendencies. It's actually been shown in a number of studies that certain types of latent brain development in the Frontal Cortex is associated with behavior problems. Frontal Brain development happens last, and up until 25 years of age. That's why Teenagers act like dumbass fuckwits and adults have better behavior on average.

So, Gacy had a volatile brain chemistry to start with. Gacy's dad was also an alcoholic and abusive father. So he abused and beat Gacy. Now, it turns out when you have a ticking time bomb brain, being violently abused during childhood can trigger the "right stuff" to make you an antisocial serial killer. This in fact has been studied quite well. Google "serial killer brain studies" if you don't believe me.So all of a sudden, Gacy, this horrible serial killer...is just an unlucky soul who had the wrong brain type and got abused at a young age. I can empathize with him. How many religious folks are going to empathize with Gacy? That doesn't matter. That's a trick question. My real question is:

Does God empathize with Gacy?

Even if Gacy was an Atheist, didn't ask for forgiveness, and killed a bunch of people...he was basically dealt a fucked up biological hand from day one, and was placed into a fucked up living situation. This is no different than asking what happens to stillborn babies or children born with rare genetic defects who die at an early age. Or someone with down syndrome who will never comprehend religion, Original Sin, or forgiveness. Gacy is an extreme example. But you could argue that people who break the very moral codes outlined by the 10 Commandments are in fact not acting out on their own behalf.

Someone is going to chime in and say, "Gacy could have controlled his urges." And that type of judgmental statement typically shows a lack of empathy. It would be frowned upon in the professional Psychology, Psychiatric, and Medical field. To some degree we need to either decide that all humans are inherently evil - hence, Original Sin. Or the brain is like a car engine. Sometimes it works well, sometimes it doesn't: but it is always a product of the environment that it operates in.

I think there are profound implications in conversations and questions like these. There is also a "pushing people under the rug" mentality - even in fields like Psychology. From a moral standpoint: what do you do with a child molester or a serial killer? You can certainly extend some empathy towards them...but you cannot necessarily rehabilitate them. And again, I wonder...does Gacy go to Hell for being dealt a fucked hand? Did God deal him that fucked hand? Is he just a loophole to make us question faith? He certainly doesn't fit into the notion or concept of Original Sin, and free will, and choosing your own adventure in life.

I honestly have no answer to this. But the notion of Heaven and Hell bothers me. The notion the God might not be empathetic is concerning to me. Maybe he is extremely empathetic: maybe Gacy will be in the same part of heaven with all the stillborn babies and kids with early deaths.

Does anyone know how to address this answer from a religious standpoint? And please don't say something lame like "God has a plan."

I'm already a Level 14 Catholic Church-Goer.

edit: People don't have a lot of empathy towards child molesters or serial killers. I don't blame them. But I wonder if some of this lack of empathy is associated with strong Religious views or beliefs. Again...I feel like this might be worth looking into some research. I'm giving away too much, but this empathy stuff kind of ties into my previous comment.

double edit: there is a butt-load of empirical evidence and studies that basically prove the choices we make are the result of biological predispositions, and behavior experiences. This is called Epigenetics, and is the emerging popular thread in new Biology research. Some people develop in a way that they can make choices which fit the "moral constructs." Some people do not develop this way. It seems rational to extend empathy to the latter group knowing that your brain and behavior are really a product of your environment. Knowing these facts strongly challenges "free will," "Original Sin," "Judgement," and "Heaven and Hell." Is God a cool cat with lots of empathy, or the judgmental character as written in the Bible...?

[TheGame]

Originally Posted by Vampyr

I'm asking specifically, why do you thank god for what you have. Why do you think he expended his power to help you, but not use it to feed someone who is starving?

I'm not sure how you'd like me to answer this question differently.

-Do you believe that having food would still be a blessing if it was readily available to everyone all the time?
-Do you think that being alive would be a blessing if people didn't die?
-Do you think that winning a football game would be a blessing if people didn't lose?

It's all about perception. If you're alive and/or got the chance to live, it's a blessing relative to never being born or dead. What you get above and beyond that is what you make of it. The people born into bad situations where they starve to death are and should be humbling, but at the same time.. if that's all they know, maybe they feel blessed by different things for different reasons that we take for granted.