Let's Talk Politics

[gekko]

You know what the problem is? You're a complete idiot, reading news from Pakistan, now running your little terrorist cell from Europe.

Do the world a favor, shut up.

[Rndm_Perfection]

Originally posted by gekko
You know what the problem is? You're a complete idiot, reading news from Pakistan, now running your little terrorist cell from Europe.

Do the world a favor, shut up.

Calm down...

You're getting completely off-topic and turning a debate into a "My display of the various reasons why many hate the 'average American citizen', parade".


To utilize the timeline:

First, Ranzid gave naive, but appropriate opinion. Then, Joeiss returned with a reasonable reply using a bit of facts and some opinion. Buuut, then came Gekko with his off-topic outburst toward an opposing opinion.

Come on now, debates are supposed to get heated, but all respect and validity seem to be lost when one steps over that line.


But, to give my own replies:

1)

Originally posted by Ranzid
Oh and it was a real act of honnor to bomb civilians twice with nukes after a military base was attacked.

Joiess' response was quite true, but I originally was thinking of... the irrelivance. It's not like the statement I highlighted was claiming that any act of war is honorable. Rather, it was showing how; before Hitler was "too big of a threat"; Europe chose not to act upon the actions of the Nazis immediately, and therefor received a dishonorable aura surrounding their nations for a period of time in exchange.

The United States too, however, chose the dishonor of remaining in isolationism. That is, until they were bombed and ol' Roosevelt dropped the bomb in retaliation. Did he think about it? I'd assume so... Why, the threat was immediate. No longer could the States hide from the rest of the world... and he felt they had to act fast.

I think the decision could have been better... but I can't blame the President; it got the job done. Civilians died, women and children too... but not much more happened afterward. While it was not an honorable choice (he definatley wouldn't be a candidate of mine for a medale), I would not see it as a dishonorable act.


2)

Originally posted by Almansurah
I wonder what happened to the War in Afghanistan. It suddenly dissapeared of our TV screens, infact it was never much on the news after the initial months.

There is more that meets the eye.

Y'know... I was wondering the same thing. According to what us Americans saw, we just went over, blasted a few rocks and "accidently" a few Canadians, and then all was over and Taliban was crushed under the iron fist of justice. Bah, it couldn't have been that easy. I can't tell why the media is spilling too many plans over the radio waves at one moment... and not willing to share the rest at another.

The media goes crazy with this new "War". It's not just a "war on terrorism"... no, it's a true war this time. I guess it just produces higher ratings than what really happened over in the land of Afghan. *scratches his head* And why, oh why are they reporting such information as the weaponry we plan on using, the location of assumed hidden Iraqi armory, and the alleged attack coordination. I've read up and heard the term "Freedom of the Press" time and time again, but this is a wee bit much.

Then, on the contrary, very little information is given about what happened in the past. Heh, I never thought it'd happen, but the name "bin Laden" has vanished from American Broadcast. I dunno, maybe to find the truth, one must order Al-Jazeera (or the many other translated names of it).


and

You forgot to mention one thing, Guerilla warfare, Afghans aren't that soft a group to allow Americans to roam about, just look at the history of the country. Read the news about what really is happening there, and not just the censored news you listen to.



Even in the Jang newspaper [Pakistani newspaper] which is normally censored to a large extent carried many reports of what is really happening in Afghanistan. But it's funny, these reports never tend to be reported out here.

Yes... there's already plenty negative thoughts toward American military and politics. Whether or not the States "saved" Afghanistan from the Taliban, I'm sure less than half (and yes, I'm being generous in my assumptions) would want an American militant anywhere near his or her home over in the Middle-East. More reason why I want more than just the Yuppies over at CNN... I want real news that I can "use"!


3) And finally... I know, this is a long post O_o.

Originally posted by Ranzid
North American lifestyle is certainly not an example of living for the rest of the planet. If the entire world population would be living like we are doing here in north america, it would take 5 planet earth to supply us. Yes we might be better than some others, but we are far from perfect, and we should try to fix our own problems before solving everybody else's problems.

If everyone in the world was taking up as much space and raw materials as the average Northern American? Yeah, I can see how Earth would be depleted before Pee Wee Herman could think up an original word of the day ("G-rated", that is). "AAaaaaah"

Anywho, if the population of the world STARTED in North America... expanded, and kept the "culture" (or lack-thereof) of Northern American lifestyle, then I think Earth could handle us. First off, technology would be spitting out plenty of new ways to handle resources. The only problem, of course, would be seeing the technology put to use (take, for example, the "fabled" Electric Car). However, I believe that the world population would be small enough to live a comfortable life in the world; families comprised mostly of the annoyingly "cozy" 2.5 children.

Buuut, that's not the case, so let's not dream about it. Equally, the world does not live like North America, so let's not worry about it.


OK, if you had noticed, I underlined my favorite little part in that statement. The old "Me before you" idealism. Personally, I think that's how the world's cogs should turn. "Let the working man earn his pay," I say. But, y'see, it's that attitude that gets so many negative... anti-American attitudes. Because there are many "unfortunate" humans out there born into poor families in Third World Countries, it is a natural act to assume help from those more fortunate.

My basic instinct is to say "Go find a job..." but it's not that easy.


Meh, since I have nowhere else to go with this thought, I'll end this post here. Beware though... if you catch my attention with a comment, I might dare reply again! *gasps*


AFTER EDIT:
Oh, I just needed to add this last bit in... food for thought, y'know.

"He has poisoned our water for ever. Nixon will be remembered as a classic case of a smart man ****ting in his own nest, but he also **** in our nest and that was the crime that history will burn on his memory as a brand. By disgracing and degrading the presidency of the United States, by fleeing the White House like a diseased cur, Richard Nixon broke the heart of the American Dream..."

Kinda irrelivant... but I just liked it.

[gekko]

Originally posted by Rndm_Perfection
Buuut, then came Gekko with his off-topic outburst toward an opposing opinion.

Want to explain how it was off-topic? Wait, don't bother, it wasn't. Of all things, inappropriate, not called for, etc., it was hardly off-topic. I choose to "speak" about him, rather than ban him.

The WWII thing was not dishonorable, be careful how you use that word. The United States, and even Europe were not wrong in their decision to wait things out. Looking back on it, it may have been a bad decision. But looking back on it, we know of everything that Nazi Germany did. At that time, they had no clue, they couldn't see the future. They didn't want war, and Germany wasn't this big superpower who was killing off entire races of people and trying to take over the world. And we weren't alive back then, we don't know what it was like. It may have turned out to be the wrong decision, but it wasn't dishonorable.

Just don't make the same mistake twice.

And on Afghanistan, they kinda handed over Kabul. It wasn't a long, drawn-out war. This wasn't WWII, and a lot of our attacks were done from the air. And recently, not much has happened. Battle happened very recently, one happened last spring, and there hasn't been too much for a while now. You guys are expecting 24/7 coverage from the front lines.

The media goes crazy with this new "War". It's not just a "war on terrorism"... no, it's a true war this time. I guess it just produces higher ratings than what really happened over in the land of Afghan.

We have troops in Afghanistan, if anything breaks out, they fight, its over. A war with Iraq currently has 92,000 troops deployed, and is currently a huge issue in the US, and it's having a major effect on the economy. Major issue, with new information coming regularely, versus Afghanistan war which has small battles happening, nothing really ground breaking, just doing the dirty work. Which do you think Americans want to hear?

And why, oh why are they reporting such information as the weaponry we plan on using, the location of assumed hidden Iraqi armory, and the alleged attack coordination.

Because the media is too ****ing stupid to realize that lives are comprimised by their ****ing ratings.

"Freedom of the Press"

That's relating to publishing what you want, of course, there are some restrictions. I think part of the blame should be put on our government for revealing this information to the greedy journalists. Unless that is, they're feeding them lies like they have before. I find that funny

but the name "bin Laden" has vanished from American Broadcast.

The man has vanished too. Hope he dies in that cave.

I dunno, maybe to find the truth, one must order Al-Jazeera (or the many other translated names of it).

Al-Jazeera? Truth? ROFLMGDMFAO! Good one.

Yes... there's already plenty negative thoughts toward American military and politics.

You're right, we need more pro-America movements.

Whether or not the States "saved" Afghanistan from the Taliban

No man (or woman may be more appropriate) in their right mind would want to live under Taliban rule. Then again, look how many over there are brainwashed.

[Professor S]

Almansurah, you constantly talk about the "real" news that all of us poor Americans never get to see because it is constantly filtered through the propaganda that is the American media. Yeah... RIGHT. Have you ever listened to the American media? Do you realize that if any major outlet was to find out about attrocities committed in Afghanistan OUR media would be the first to report it. Why? It equals ratings and we have the right of free speech, unlike most of the countries that you are so quick to defend. You speak out against America without realizing that if you were to reverse your opinions and put yourself in Iraq, you would most likely be DEAD now. Yes, America truly is the great satan.

But I'll give you the benefit of the doubt. Please enlighten us with the "truth".

As for the crack about dropping 2 nuclear weapons against Japan... DAMN STRAIGHT. A ground war against Japan would have cost us far toom much in the way of American blood, we warned Japan and even showed them what would happen if they didn't surrender, they didn't and we dropped the bomb.

The fact that we had to drop another bomb more than justifies that action in my mind. And Ranzid, I alsoi notice you failed to mention the Japanese torture camps during the war where hundreds of American soldeirs were uthlessly killed. But I wouldn't expect you to, its not in your character.

[gekko]

Damn, someone give this guy a medal!

Strangler for President!

[The Duggler]

Originally posted by Rndm_Perfection
Buuut, that's not the case, so let's not dream about it. Equally, the world does not live like North America, so let's not worry about it.

But isn't that what you want? Look, if a country is communist, or doesn't want to do things YOUR way then you won't do business with it or you will try to convert it to capitalism.

Originally posted by Rndm_Perfection
First off, technology would be spitting out plenty of new ways to handle resources

Why aren't we doing it now? You see, our way of living don't give a **** about ressources, it's all about money. We'll do something allright but that's when there will be no more ressources. And then you can use all the technology you want to handle it, but if there is none to handle then we're ****ed.

Originally posted by Rndm_Perfection
Because there are many "unfortunate" humans out there born into poor families in Third World Countries, it is a natural act to assume help from those more fortunate.

And what do we do with them? We exploit them as cheap labor and say that we are helping them by giving them jobs.


And The Stangler, I won't start arguing with you for "who has done the worst to whom" because it will never end. But here's a few things that Americans should be proud of:

Source: www.bowlingforcolumbine.com

1953: U.S. overthrows Prime Minister Mossadeq of Iran. U.S. installs Shah as dictator.

1954: U.S. overthrows democratically-elected President Arbenz of Guatemala. 200,000 civilians killed.

1963: U.S. backs assassination of South Vietnamese President Diem.

1963-1975: American military kills 4 million civilians in Southeast Asia.

September 11, 1973: U.S. stages coup in Chile. Democratically elected president Salvador Allende assassinated. Dictator Augusto Pinochet installed. 5,000 Chileans murdered.

1977: U.S. backs military rulers of El Salvador. 70,000 Salvadorans and four American nuns killed.

1980's: U.S. trains Osama bin Laden and fellow terrorists to kill Soviets. CIA gives them $3 billion.

1981: Reagan administration trains and funds "contras". 30,000 Nicaraguans die.

1982: U.S. provides billions in aid to Saddam Hussein for weapons to kill Iranians.

1983: White House secretly gives Iran weapons to help them kill Iraqis.

1989: CIA agent Manuel Noriega (also serving as President of Panama) disobeys orders from Washington. U.S. invades Panama and removes Noriega. 3,000 Panamanian civilian casualties

1990: Iraq invades Kuwait with weapons from U.S.

1991: U.S. enters Iraq. Bush reinstates dictator of Kuwait.

1998: Clinton bombs "weapons factory" in Sudan. Factory turns out to be making aspirin.

1991 to present: American planes bomb Iraq on a weekly basis. U.N. estimates 500,000 Iraqi children die from bombing and sanctions.

2000-01: U.S. gives Taliban-ruled Afghanistan $245 million in "aid".

September 11, 2001: Osama Bin Laden uses his expert CIA training to murder 3,000 people.

[Joeiss]

Is that all true?

[Professor S]

Ranzid, the fact that you would quote Michal Moore as legitimate mews says it all. He is the next coming of Leni Reifenstahl. He pushes one libera view without ever attemping to show an alternative view or extenuating circumstances withour making sure he has the last word through commentary or creative editing. He has an agenda and makes sure that his agenda is completed no matter what information or opinions he conveniently omits from his propoganda. Its called yellow journalism and its very obvious.

The facts you mentioned may be true in his eyes, but don't think that they tell the whole story.

[The Duggler]

The facts you mentioned may be true in his eyes, but don't think that they tell the whole story

The same could be said for everything you said about Iraq and the other US oppenents in this thread, don't you think?

[Joeiss]

Oh, Miacheal Moore... That guy is funny.

[Almansurah]

Originally posted by gekko
You know what the problem is? You're a complete idiot, reading news from Pakistan, now running your little terrorist cell from Europe.

Do the world a favor, shut up.

When I stated I read the Pakistani newspapers, that was when I visited there, and the news I saw there was very different from the news I saw here in UK. It never stated that everything was peaceful as it seems to you, and if you think it's gonna be all peaceful in Afghanistan, then you're very wrong, research the history of Afghanistan, and you will find out what kind of people they are. The news was far from complete, infact it was only dedicated a minute little space in the newspaper [around the back pages] to try prevent people from seeing it, but at the end the truth always comes out anyways.......

Rndm_Perfection, thanks for your reply. You made good points.

Then, on the contrary, very little information is given about what happened in the past. Heh, I never thought it'd happen, but the name "bin Laden" has vanished from American Broadcast. I dunno, maybe to find the truth, one must order Al-Jazeera (or the many other translated names of it).

lol. First the aim was to find Bin Laden, and 'smoke him out of his cave', but then it was stated it doesn't matter even if the leadership isn't caught. Quite a strange turn of events.

And on Afghanistan, they kinda handed over Kabul. It wasn't a long, drawn-out war. This wasn't WWII, and a lot of our attacks were done from the air. And recently, not much has happened. Battle happened very recently, one happened last spring, and there hasn't been too much for a while now. You guys are expecting 24/7 coverage from the front lines.

Yes they handed over Kabul, and the other areas. The Soviets also had quick control over the whole of Afghanistan, i.e. occupied it fully, but look at what happened to them. And yes, you're right a lot of attacks were done from the air, but you're wrong about one thing, that nothing is happening, a guerilla war is going on, with hit and run tactics, read up on reliable news.

The Russians are keenly following the America progress in Afghanistan, and well they're finding that more or less, Americans are doing the same or worse as the Russians were during their initial years of the invasion.

Originally posted by The Strangler
Almansurah, you constantly talk about the "real" news that all of us poor Americans never get to see because it is constantly filtered through the propaganda that is the American media. Yeah... RIGHT. Have you ever listened to the American media? Do you realize that if any major outlet was to find out about attrocities committed in Afghanistan OUR media would be the first to report it. Why? It equals ratings and we have the right of free speech, unlike most of the countries that you are so quick to defend. You speak out against America without realizing that if you were to reverse your opinions and put yourself in Iraq, you would most likely be DEAD now. Yes, America truly is the great satan.

But I'll give you the benefit of the doubt. Please enlighten us with the "truth".

Yes, I do listen to the American media.

Down here in UK, we get to watch Fox News, CNN, and sometimes NBC. And there's also CNBC available.

Yeh Yeh about free speech, that is just a joke. If only the world cares about free speech that much. There is so much propaganda on your news stations, and even on many news stations, I could just keep on listing it.

[Professor S]

Well lets see... CNN leans to the left, MSNBC is basically liberal, and Fox leans to the right. Oh yes, propoganda abounds. Please try and make valid points and back them up with facts and example.

Just saying our news is all propoganda doesn't do much to prove your case. Using Pakistani news and the like does even less. Why not try the Daily Babel in Iraq ( I LOVE the play on words with that name). I mean its only run by Saddam's kid, so it must be true.

Calling free speech a joke? LOL!! Your logic skills, or lack there of, continue to astound me. Do you even realize that you are using your rights to free speech right now? Do you realize that in other countries you would be put to death for merely mentioning a dissenting opinion? The contradictions between your actions and rhetoric are mind boggling. Free speec a joke? No.

You are the joke.

[Joeiss]

After September 11th, I remember reading in the paper that a couple writers in America got fired because of some negative things that they said about America in the newspapers a couple days after the attacks. I know this is a little example, but when times get rough, some of us have to watch what we say, unless we want to get fired.

[gekko]

Free speech doesn't mean you can write whatever you want, for whatever you want. If you're from Pakistan and thinks the US is the cause of all evil in this world, you can freely say that in the US. If you're Iraq and say Saddam is a fool, you will be killed.

In a job, you are restricted in what you can say. You think a journalist can just say what he wants? Think again, the reputation of the entire company is not going to be lost because someone chooses to go anti-America. He has rules to follow, if he breaks them, he gets fired. That has nothing to do with free speech. No one is stopping them from starting their own newspaper and writing whatever they want.

[ZebraRampage]

You people are so funny sometimes. This debate is so crazy.