Iraq handled like the presidency - with incompetence. - Page 3

Kitana85 · 09-27-2004, 08:01 AM

What I'm not understanding, nor have I understood, is how "freedom" can be forced on another nation, and why our version of freedom has to be theirs-- we hate socialism, the Euopeans like democratic socialism, if I just said democratic socialism without pre-ing it with Europe everyone would have been like--boooo....
Also, look at what's happened when its tried to happen before, we got Castro in Cuba, and revolving door leaders in Haiti.

Oh, and a coutry in the middle east... Lebanon? Its a muslim nation which borders on Syria... its a republic (as is the US), how much freer do you want it?

Neo · 09-27-2004, 10:35 AM

No country is ever truly free until it has its own smoldering crater of U.S. freedom.

Typhoid · 09-27-2004, 10:43 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Neo

No country is ever truly free until it has its own smoldering crater of U.S. freedom.

You would not believe how cocky and arrogant that sounds.

But I agree with Kitana.

The Germanator · 09-27-2004, 11:59 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Typhoid

You would not believe how cocky and arrogant that sounds.

Umm...I think you missed the glaring sarcasm in Neo's statement...

Crono · 09-27-2004, 12:02 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kitana85

What I'm not understanding, nor have I understood, is how "freedom" can be forced on another nation, and why our version of freedom has to be theirs-- we hate socialism, the Euopeans like democratic socialism, if I just said democratic socialism without pre-ing it with Europe everyone would have been like--boooo....
Also, look at what's happened when its tried to happen before, we got Castro in Cuba, and revolving door leaders in Haiti.

Oh, and a coutry in the middle east... Lebanon? Its a muslim nation which borders on Syria... its a republic (as is the US), how much freer do you want it?

Lebannon is a "republic", doesn't mean it's free. Just look at North Korea.. it's a "People's Republic", and it is the total opposite.

You can not find safety or freedom anywhere in the middle east. At least not the type of freedom us westerner's are used to.

Kitana85 · 09-27-2004, 03:22 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Crono

At least not the type of freedom us westerner's are used to.

Wow, I honestly cannot believe you just said that! Maybe I misinterpreted, but it sounded like you said that because their freedom is different, it isn't real freedom.

In the 1700's, the Brits tried to sqaush insurgets in some of their colonies. These insergents were against freedom! They had to be, England was the freest nation in the WORLD, the people voted for parlement, unlike in the unfree France, Spain, and Portugal, yes, 10% of the people living in England could vote of hold office, they were by far the freest nation in the world... AND THESE, these rebels, they had to be against freedom!

Comparing Lebanon to North Korea is just bullsh!t. If you look at statistics, standered of living and MOST IMPORTANTLY rights given to citizens, they are free. Lebanon is rare in the middle east, but don't pretend it doesnt' exist.

Professor S · 09-27-2004, 05:52 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kitana85

What I'm not understanding, nor have I understood, is how "freedom" can be forced on another nation, and why our version of freedom has to be theirs?

Thats incorrect. The government being established in Iraq will be more like the European Parliamentary system than the American system of 3 branches.

Kitana85 · 09-28-2004, 04:53 PM

or then why it has to be like theirs

Typhoid · 09-28-2004, 04:55 PM

I think ( And really hope, considering im assuming) Kitana is saying why does Iraqs version of "freedom" and government have to be like any other country?

Kitana85 · 09-28-2004, 06:25 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Typhoid

I think ( And really hope, considering im assuming) Kitana is saying why does Iraqs version of "freedom" and government have to be like any other country?

He shoots, he scores!!!!

yup, as long as it is some form of freedom

Professor S · 09-28-2004, 06:45 PM

At the risk of getting back into another political argument after my retirement, I'll try and illuminate both of you:

EVERY FORM OF "FREEDOM" OR FREE GOVERNMENT IS BASED ON ANOTHER FORM GOING BACK TO THE ROMAN EMPIRE. Parliament, The US, and even theoretical communism are all based on the foundations that the Romans developed. So in essence, every form of free democracy is is based on someone else's government.

To 1) try and recreate "freedom" is stupid, since you have governments that do it well already that Iraq can adopt and transform into their own government and 2) its next to impossible.

By asking the question: "Why does Iraqi freedom have to be like anyone elses?" is the same as asking any other government why theirs is like anyone else's. You go with what works.

With that, I'll leave the rest of you to argue some more.

Crono · 09-28-2004, 06:45 PM

Freedom isn't freedom until you can protest against your own government, or be free to worship any God you choose. That's what real freedom is, IMO. There can't just be "some form" of freedom. There's only one definition.

Typhoid · 09-28-2004, 08:09 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Crono

Freedom isn't freedom until you can protest against your own government, or be free to worship any God you choose. That's what real freedom is, IMO. There can't just be "some form" of freedom. There's only one definition.

So your saying no Iraqis ever protested against their government....ever?

And there is no form of "Freedom" in our world. Freedom means your free to do whatever you wish. We dont even have freedom. We have these funny things that hinder our freedoms called "laws". We cant go kill a man, rob a bank, marry another person of the same sex (Unless you live in Canada) rape a child. Now, im not condoning any of these, but if you wanted to do them, you certainly could not, because we have laws to tell us what we can and cant do. So basically, it is boxing us in a false freedom.

And again, im not saying eating babies or anything is good, im just saying if someone wanted to "Be free" and do anything illegal, they arnt free to do so. They would go to jail, and give up their "Freedom".

Quote:

Freedom isn't freedom until you can protest against your own government

On certain accounts do protesters not get thrown in jail for protesting the government?

Crono · 09-28-2004, 08:30 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Typhoid

So your saying no Iraqis ever protested against their government....ever?

And there is no form of "Freedom" in our world. Freedom means your free to do whatever you wish. We dont even have freedom. We have these funny things that hinder our freedoms called "laws". We cant go kill a man, rob a bank, marry another person of the same sex (Unless you live in Canada) rape a child. Now, im not condoning any of these, but if you wanted to do them, you certainly could not, because we have laws to tell us what we can and cant do. So basically, it is boxing us in a false freedom.

Any Iraqi who protested against Saddam was murdered or tortured.

It isn't a false freedom. You can go anywhere you want in this country (for example) without some sort of "secret" government organization telling you that you cant, or throwing you in jail for no reason at all. Or telling you where your family is going to live, or what you will do for a living, or who you're allowed to talk to. Etc etc.

And killing a person and everything else you said is absolutely stupid. But of course, if there was such a place with unlimited "freedom", I'd be free to make myself into a killer who hunted down other murders, shot gays (because really they deserve a slug embedded in the brain), and child molestors. So obviously there a certain laws, because they NEED to be enforced. I don't even know why I got into this conversation because honestly I think people should have less freedoms than what they already have, but oh well.

And actually, if you wanted to kill a person, you could if you wanted to. You dont have secret police spying on you all the time. But IF you do and you are CAUGHT, then you face the consequences, which are very deserving if you do any of those.

But the fact is, we still live in the free world. They don't. The modern world defines what freedom should be.

Quote:

And again, im not saying eating babies or anything is good, im just saying if someone wanted to "Be free" and do anything illegal, they arnt free to do so. They would go to jail, and give up their "Freedom".

On certain accounts do protesters not get thrown in jail for protesting the government?

On certain accounts, when they are violent. What's your point?