State of Israel

[mickydaniels]

Anti-Semitism?
No. I'm not going to tell you why the Holocaust was justified because it wasn't. A man with an intense amount of hatred got into a position to do something about it. What I was reffering to was the death of God's Son, Jesus Christ.


Deuteronomy 7:1-6
When Jehovah thy God shall bring thee into the land wither thou goest to possess it, and shall cast out many nations before thee, the Hittite, the Girga****e, the Amorite, the Canaanite, the Perizzite, the Hivite, and the Jebusite, seven nations greater and mightier than thou, and when Jehovah thy God shall deliver them up before thee, and thou shalt smite them; then thou shalt utterly destroy them: thou shalt make no covenant with them, nor show mercy unto them; neither shalt thou make marriages with them, thy daughter thou shalt not giveunto his son , nor his daughter shalt thou take unto thy son. For he will turn thy son away from following me, that they may serve many other gods: so will the anger of Jehovah be kindled against you, and he will destroy thee quickly. But thus shall ye deal with them: ye shall break down their altars, and dash in pieces their pillars, and hew down their Asherim, and burn their graven images with fire. For thou art a holy people unto Jehovah thy God: Jehovah thy God has chosen thee to be a people for his own possession, above all peoples that are on the face of the earth.

Yes, that seems to be very different from what I posted.
The point to be made here, which I guess you want a full explanation for is :


So what if the Qu'ran advocates violence against infidels? If you believe it you will do what God tells you to do. If he wants you to kill infidels, it's obviously in his plan, IF YOU BELIEVE AND WANT TO REMAIN IN GOD'S FAVOR. Now, if these Jews said, we can't do it, these people have lives and families to take care of, children to watch over, what would God say? He told you something now you go and do it. The same way they belived is the same way these Muslims believe. They have to carry it out the way they see it without compassion that God does not see compassion for especially since they see themselves as the living God's true life.

And yes, I do consider David Duke a credible source of info. First time I went to his site, I had never heard of him. I only heard of his actions afterwards.

I'm going to assume that you also think Malcolm X, another of my faves is Anti-Semitic, too?
What about Christians? Are they thinly veiled Anti-Semites? After all, each time Christ's death is mentioned it mentions that a certain people were responsible for his death.
John 19: 1-22
Luke chapter 23
Mark chapter 15
Matthew 26: 47 to 27:43


I just didn't want to write it all out because I assumed that a Bible would have been picked up and read for yourself.

[Professor S]

Originally Posted by mickydaniels

Anti-Semitism?
No. I'm not going to tell you why the Holocaust was justified because it wasn't. A man with an intense amount of hatred got into a position to do something about it. What I was reffering to was the death of God's Son, Jesus Christ.


Deuteronomy 7:1-6
When Jehovah thy God shall bring thee into the land wither thou goest to possess it, and shall cast out many nations before thee, the Hittite, the Girga****e, the Amorite, the Canaanite, the Perizzite, the Hivite, and the Jebusite, seven nations greater and mightier than thou, and when Jehovah thy God shall deliver them up before thee, and thou shalt smite them; then thou shalt utterly destroy them: thou shalt make no covenant with them, nor show mercy unto them; neither shalt thou make marriages with them, thy daughter thou shalt not giveunto his son , nor his daughter shalt thou take unto thy son. For he will turn thy son away from following me, that they may serve many other gods: so will the anger of Jehovah be kindled against you, and he will destroy thee quickly. But thus shall ye deal with them: ye shall break down their altars, and dash in pieces their pillars, and hew down their Asherim, and burn their graven images with fire. For thou art a holy people unto Jehovah thy God: Jehovah thy God has chosen thee to be a people for his own possession, above all peoples that are on the face of the earth.

Yes, that seems to be very different from what I posted.
The point to be made here, which I guess you want a full explanation for is :


So what if the Qu'ran advocates violence against infidels? If you believe it you will do what God tells you to do. If he wants you to kill infidels, it's obviously in his plan, IF YOU BELIEVE AND WANT TO REMAIN IN GOD'S FAVOR. Now, if these Jews said, we can't do it, these people have lives and families to take care of, children to watch over, what would God say? He told you something now you go and do it. The same way they belived is the same way these Muslims believe. They have to carry it out the way they see it without compassion that God does not see compassion for especially since they see themselves as the living God's true life.

I posted that in response to another post asking what kind of God would advocate violence. I know that Allah did, so evidently does the Christian God. I wasn't making judgements, just stating facts.

And yes, I do consider David Duke a credible source of info. First time I went to his site, I had never heard of him. I only heard of his actions afterwards.

No comment needed.

I'm going to assume that you also think Malcolm X, another of my faves is Anti-Semitic, too?

I don't know about Malcolm X as I never studied him, but I know many of his followers are very much anti-semites. I do know that Malcolm X for much of his political life considered pretty much everyone who wasn't black a devil.

What about Christians? Are they thinly veiled Anti-Semites? After all, each time Christ's death is mentioned it mentions that a certain people were responsible for his death.
John 19: 1-22
Luke chapter 23
Mark chapter 15
Matthew 26: 47 to 27:43

Some Chritians are anti-semites. Some aren't. Its not uncommon, but that also does not make it forgiveable. I certaintly am not one to spout off about how Christians are infallable. They are not, but I can also see that Christianity has been far more of a boon to the world than a detriment. Meanwhile the strict tennants of the Koran and abuses of it by its followers have kept much of the Middle East mired in violence and poverty for many many years.

[mickydaniels]

Originally Posted by The Strangler

I don't know about Malcolm X as I never studied him, but I know many of his followers are very much anti-semites. I do know that Malcolm X for much of his political life considered pretty much everyone who wasn't black a devil.

Here's a statement I believe accurately describes what he was about from 1965:

Whether you're educated or illiterate, whether you live on the boulevard or in the alley, you're going to catch hell just like I am. We're all in the same boat and we all are going to catch the same hell from the same man. He just happens to be a white man. All of us have suffered here, in this country, political oppression at the hands of the white man, and social degradation at the hands of the white man.
Now in speaking like this, it doesn't mean that we're anti-white, but it does mean we're anti-exploitation, we're anti-degradation, we're anti-oppression. And if the white man doesn't want us to be anti-him, let him stop oppressing us and exploiting and degrading us.

[Professor S]

Was that quote from before or after his pilgrimmage to Mecca? I know his views changed greatly after his pilgrimmage.

[mickydaniels]

It's actually from 1964, the same year he went to Mecca. Before or after I don't know. 1965 is the year this was printed. Doesn't really matter because he was still against oppression, he just accepted the fact that maybe blacks couldn't do it all on their own.

[Professor S]

Well thw whole idea of gaining acceptance through isolationist views is pretty silly. I liked his views after his trip to Mecca, but before he was more than a little suspect.

[mickydaniels]

More than a little suspect? Please explain.


And how is gaining accpetance through isolation silly? That's the same thing Israel is doing. They don't want any Palestinians so they're doing what they feel is necessary to keep them out even though the Palestinians were already there.

In any case the state of Israel wouldn't exist today if it wasn't for the Holocaust. It was obvious they were not going to stay in Europe and the US simply didn't want to deal with mass Jewish immigration. They set up Israel and made everyone happy.

[Rick_Blaze]

Israel kills Palestinians and it means nothing. Palestinians retaliate and they're so evil. They don't want suicide bombs just give the Palestinians the state they deserve, and dismantle every single settlement in the west bank. If black people in this country waited for white terrorists in the south to stop violence, then they're might still have been segregation in this country. There are about 3.8 million Palestinian refugees. 3.8 that have been kicked out of their country and still can't return.

[Professor S]

Originally Posted by Rick_Blaze

Israel kills Palestinians and it means nothing. Palestinians retaliate and they're so evil. They don't want suicide bombs just give the Palestinians the state they deserve, and dismantle every single settlement in the west bank. If black people in this country waited for white terrorists in the south to stop violence, then they're might still have been segregation in this country. There are about 3.8 million Palestinian refugees. 3.8 that have been kicked out of their country and still can't return.

There are so many things wrong with your atatements I don't know where to begin.

Israel - You kind of have it reversed. The violence did not start from Israel, but they sure do know how to finish it. Israel even gave land back, and Palestinians used it to further their terrorist attacks. We are going to have to face the truth that those that are extreme enough to be suicide bombers do not want a compromise. They want all of Israel, and Israel ain't going anywhere. The end result? The violence will continue and there will be no end.

Also, Palestine isn't even a country. It never has been.

Civil Rights - Yes, black leaders had a lot to do with the revolution that too place in the 60's, but do you really think anything would have happened if sympathetic and influential white people hadn't helped? Nope. Plus there were many black people back then and even today who are fans of "separate but equal".

The world isn't as black and white as some would like to believe. Israel isn't evil and Palestinians aren't good, or vice versa. There are many shades of gray in between that confuse the issue until you realize that there is no simple solution to this, and there might never be.

[Professor S]

Originally Posted by mickydaniels

More than a little suspect? Please explain.

Your the fan of Malcolm X, you should know. Before he went on his trip to Mecca his views were far more extreme and violent, and many would even say racist. That I consider suspect.

And how is gaining accpetance through isolation silly? That's the same thing Israel is doing. They don't want any Palestinians so they're doing what they feel is necessary to keep them out even though the Palestinians were already there.

It comes down to safety. The Palestinians that they have allowed to live in their country are at best hostile and at worst actively participating in terrorism. We in America become outraged when ONE TERRORIST ACT is perpetrated on us. Imagine being Israeli and living with it on a daily basis.

And why is there even a comparison? Israel attacks specific targets while Palestinian terrorists blow up cars in busy streets filled with innocents. There is no comparison.

In any case the state of Israel wouldn't exist today if it wasn't for the Holocaust. It was obvious they were not going to stay in Europe and the US simply didn't want to deal with mass Jewish immigration. They set up Israel and made everyone happy.

Many of the Jews who were in Israel at the time of Patriation were already there. Patriation began back during WWI and there were large Jewish populations before then. Many more came after the war, its true, but basically the UN drew lines that already existed. Its not like the UN just said "ok, everybody out, you Jews step right in."

[Shadow_Link]

Originally Posted by The Strangler

I posted that in response to another post asking what kind of God would advocate violence. I know that Allah did

Sorry? Could you please read a bit more about Islam before making naive comments like this one... Either do that or don't comment about anything on Islam at all.

Advocating violence? I think not.

[Professor S]

Originally Posted by Shadow_Link

Sorry? Could you please read a bit more about Islam before making naive comments like this one... Either do that or don't comment about anything on Islam at all.

Advocating violence? I think not.

Sigh...great, now I have to go look up the excerpts that I looked up a long time ago and posted here. I think you were even in on that discussion. Hold on. I'll be right back...

[Shadow_Link]

Originally Posted by The Strangler

Sigh...great, now I have to go look up the excerpts that I looked up a long time ago and posted here. I think you were even in on that discussion. Hold on. I'll be right back...

Yeah, I remember, and I quite clearly remember telling you to actually read the quotes from the Qur'an in context. Muslim scholars suggest that those who read the Qur'an should keep at a minimum the following principles in mind. First you should have an awareness of the inner coherence in the Qur'an. As the verses are connected to each other, you should study at the least the preceding and following verses for a sense of the immediate context. Also the reader should look at all of the verses that deal with the same subject in the book. These are frequently scattered all over the scripture.

You would then realise that the sort of 'violence' that it permits is only in siutations of self-defence and war (a delicate subject).

[Professor S]

"You may strike terror into the enemies of God and the faithful, and others besides them. I shall cast terror into the hearts of infidels. Strike off their heads, maim them in every limb. Make war on them until idolatry is no more and God's religion reigns supreme. When the sacred months are over slay the idolaters wherever you find them. Arrest them, besiege them, and lie in ambush everywhere for them. Those that make war against God and His apostle and spread disorders in the land shall be put to death or crucified or have their hands and feet cut off on alternate sides, or be banished from the country."

"Be ruthless to unbelievers but merciful to one another."

"Blessed are the believers who restrain their carnal desires except with their wives and slave girls, for these are lawful to them."

This nice little passage both endorses slavery and the rape of those that are enslaved. I can see where Hussein felt justified in building his rape camps.

The Roman numerals are the SURAs of the Koran, similar to the books of the Bible.

IV.89: They desire that you should disbelieve as they have disbelieved, so that you might be (all) alike; therefore take not from among them friends until they fly (their homes) in Allah's way; but if they turn back, then seize them and kill them wherever you find them, and take not from among them a friend or a helper.

IX. 5-6: Kill those who join other gods with God wherever you may find them.

IV.76: Those who believe fight in the cause of God.

IV.74: Let those who fight in the cause of God who barter the life of this world for that which is to come; for whoever fights on God's path, whether he is killed or triumphs, We will give him a handsome reward.

VIII.39-42: Say to the Infidels: if they desist from their unbelief, what is now past shall be forgiven; but if they return to it, they have already before them the doom of the ancients! Fight then against them till strife be at an end, and the religion be all of it God's.

Is this enough for you? Listen, I'm not here saying that Christianity is real or thet Islam is fake, I'm here to point something out. This is: DON'T FOLLOW RELIGIOUS TEXTS WORD FOR WORD. THEY ARE THOUSANDS OF YEARS OLD AND THEIR LITERAL TRANSLATIONS DO MORE HARM THAN GOOD IN MODERN SOCIETY.

There are many teachings in the Qu'ran (did I get it right that time?) that are loving and peaceful, just like the Bible, but unfotunately threre are many passages like these also. To take them literally is a mistake.

Christianity is a case in point. Christianity started as a very warm religion that used the bible as a book of stories to live by. The most modern form of this is Russian Orthodoxy. Its when those who sought power used religion as a means to attain it when all of this oppression and violence started. But at the same time you can't just add stuff. When Dogma becomes more meaningful than the Word, there is a problem. Case in point: The Pope. No offense Catholics, but he is your creation and was used as a monarch figure to combat the loyalty of the masses to their feudal lords.

Unfortunately it seems that the Qu'ran teaches a direct translation as its norm. This is a shame. Because if one believes that their interpretation is the true and only interpretation, they can pretty much justify any heinous act they wish with the quotes I listed above.

Outr of every quote I've seen, this is the most disturbing:

"There may be moderate Muslims, but Islam itself is not moderate. There is no difference between Islam and Islamic fundamentalism. At most there is a difference of degree but not of kind."

-- Ibn Warraq, executive director of the Institute for the Secularization of Islamic Society

[Professor S]

Originally Posted by Shadow_Link

Yeah, I remember, and I quite clearly remember telling you to actually read the quotes from the Qur'an in context. Muslim scholars suggest that those who read the Qur'an should keep at a minimum the following principles in mind. First you should have an awareness of the inner coherence in the Qur'an. As the verses are connected to each other, you should study at the least the preceding and following verses for a sense of the immediate context. Also the reader should look at all of the verses that deal with the same subject in the book. These are frequently scattered all over the scripture.

You would then realise that the sort of 'violence' that it permits is only in siutations of self-defence and war (a delicate subject).

And I also remember pointing out that having different morals for "war" and "peace" are highly subjective, contradictory and have been ABUSED to an incredible extent.

See, the Qu'ran teaches that it is meant to be taken in only one way. The true way. The problem is that everyones way is the "true" way to them. To Bin Laden, those like you are not good Muslim's or whatever sect you are. And I'm sure Bin Laden thinks you do not follow true Islam. As long as this persists there will continue to be massive amounts of violence.