Immersion in Video Games

[TheGame]

Originally Posted by Angrist

BaB, I think that guy/gal confuses immersion with identifying with the hero. Identifying might be part of it, but it's not the same as immersion.

immersion - complete attention; intense mental effort
engrossment, absorption, concentration
attention - the faculty or power of mental concentration; "keeping track of all the details requires your complete attention"

centering, focus, focusing, focussing, focal point, direction - the concentration of attention or energy on something; "the focus of activity shifted to molecular biology"; "he had no direction in his life"

specialism - the concentration of your efforts on a particular field of study or occupation

study - a state of deep mental absorption; "she is in a deep study"

http://www.thefreedictionary.com/immersion

Its a big part of it. Unless I'm misunderstanding what you guys mean by immersion... I may be leaning more towards immersion in the total package of a video game, opposed to immersion in the gameplay only. How the topic was worded I'm assuming he was talking about the full package.

[KillerGremlin]

Immersion of course appeals to me in different levels at different times. When I pick a game up I am first pulled in by graphics and sound. Then I get absorbed into the story and gameplay. And finally I get immersed if the game is addicting and fun.

Games that really immersed me....Super Mario 64, Mario Bros. 3, OoT, Link's Awakening, Peggle (the first time you hear the music after you beat a level, omg!), Counter-Strike/TF2 for their long-term, addictive gameplay

[Thespis721]

Originally Posted by TheGame

I disagree. Cutscenes can work to your advantage in immersion if you're actually into the story that's being told. I'll agree that 'long boring' cutscenes would suck for immersion, but you're already lost if you think the story is boring to begin with.

Games that created the most full believeable worlds to me are RPGs and games like MGS. A good complex, but beliveable story line that drives you to play is a big part of immersion to me.

That's one issue I've had with the GTA series as a whole. While I like the gameplay for the most part, it feels empty in the long run because the story never motivated me enough to stay locked on it, or care that the main character is completing these missions.

You can make a game with below par graphics real in your mind by connecting to the characters, understanding the world, and being motivated enough to see your character through to the end. And you can make a realistic game with very little limitations feel unrealistic because you have no emotional connection to the game or the person you're controlling whatsoever.

That's just my opinion on the subject.

Okay. I can agree that GTA might be a little off for an example because of the gameplay flaws but MGS lacks immersion for me, completely. And long cut scenes are a big reason for it. Whether they are boring is moot because when the cut scenes get this long (and it's the same issue I have with Square Enix games), the gamer starts becoming a witness instead of a participant. If I am just witnessing the game, then I don't feel immersed then if I am participating in it.

It's like the old theatre adage, Don't tell, show. In gaming, you need to take it a step further.

[TheGame]

Originally Posted by Thespis721

Okay. I can agree that GTA might be a little off for an example because of the gameplay flaws but MGS lacks immersion for me, completely. And long cut scenes are a big reason for it. Whether they are boring is moot because when the cut scenes get this long (and it's the same issue I have with Square Enix games), the gamer starts becoming a witness instead of a participant. If I am just witnessing the game, then I don't feel immersed then if I am participating in it.

It's like the old theatre adage, Don't tell, show. In gaming, you need to take it a step further.

I disagree. But you're entitled to your opinion on the matter, and I respect it.

I don't believe that GTA4 has many gameplay flaws, its about as realistic of a city that's ever been made in a video game before, and its combat system is good. And it offers more freedom then almost any game to date. Its flaw is a lack of a good story line that really pulls people into that world and makes it real for them. Niko is not a guy that anyone who is sane can really relate too, he's just overly evil about how he handles things for no apparent reason.

I belive that cutscenes can add more life to a game in a lot of ways. MGS4 in particular is over loaded with them since its the ending sequence to 7+ games over the last 15+ years. It had to single handedly put every part of Snake's life to rest.. so I excuse its long cutscenes early. Plus I like the story and follow it closely.. so I'm bias towards it.

So I'll back away from that one as an example, since I know someone who wasn't already immersed in the series would not care much for the conclusion of the story. (But I'd like to point out that MGS 1-4 on average is as high or higher rated then any of the series you listed as a 'good example' of immersion, for a reason.)

[Vampyr]

I have to say, Xenosaga Episode I is probably the most immersive video game I've ever played, and it was notorious for very long cut scenes.

[Thespis721]

Well, I guess this is a big part of immersion that we differ on. When a cut scene gets too long, I start feeling less immersed in the world and feeling more sidelined. You know what game was incredibly immersive that I just started playing? Shadow Complex.

[BreakABone]

I guess it all depends on how you feel about stories in gaming.

For the most part, even the most elaborate video game plots boil down to a save the world type deal because of the simple nature, they make more compelling games than many other genres.

And to me, its takes me out of the experience... especially if it undergoes.. what I call those unplayable moments, which are moments that look so awesome... that you can't replicate at all in the game.

To go to an analogy since we love them here on GT, its like if you were watching a movie that paused in the middle to ask you to describe how you think the rest of the movie will play out... and then cut forward to continue the movie.

[Angrist]

Originally Posted by BreakABone

To go to an analogy since we love them here on GT, its like if you were watching a movie that paused in the middle to ask you to describe how you think the rest of the movie will play out... and then cut forward to continue the movie.

Uh I don't see what you mean. Is it a good or a bad thing?

[Thespis721]

Bad thing. Yeah, BaB has a point, it really depends on your point of view on gaming. For example, I don't really care if there is a story as long as the gameplay is locked down and solid. I don't play GTA, Marvel vs. Capcom 2, Shadow Complex, Metroid, Super Mario Galaxy, etc, etc... for the story. For me, personally, I'll leave the story needs for when I see my theatre or watch a movie. If there is a story in a game, then I it's a bonus, but not if the story takes precedent over the game.

For example, while I do like MOST of the MGS series, I never felt immersed because of all the cut scenes. The original MGS was the best.

[BreakABone]

Originally Posted by Angrist

Uh I don't see what you mean. Is it a good or a bad thing?

Its a bad thing if I wasn't clear.

When I'm watching a movie, I'm watching a movie. And for someone or something to take me out of the element of the movie through any means would just shatter it for me.

Here's a bit more subtle and recent example I guess, Harry Potter and The Half Blood Prince is in 3D for the beginning of the movie, which is all well and good, but then a giant sign comes up about 10 minutes into the movie telling you to take off your glasses. Coming into this, I didn't know if 3D was select scenes or what so for the rest of the movie, I was semi-focused on any warning telling me to put back on the glasses, which in essence took away my enjoyment of the movie.

It would be IMO the same as if I'm playing a game and all of a sudden there is a 10 minute stop gap, it kills the momentum and generally is the time I turn off the game for a bit because it kills my own flow.

[TheGame]

I don't think the movie pausing to ask you where to go next is the same thing. If you really hate cutscenes in games that much though, that's unfortunate. haha

I think cutscenes add life to a game that is impossible to achive through smashing buttons. It gives the world life, gives the characters personality, and gives the player motivation to keep moving.

If you don't understand the cutscenes I can see how it can kill the flow, but if you like the story it adds so much more to the game. If you like the story it doesn't even feel like the cutscene is something unnessicary or extra in the game.

I'm sure when you played Zelda OoT you didn't stop to question how long the scene where you first met the princess was, or the part where you move through time. The way I see it, as long as you're only watching dialouge and not actual fights your main character is involed in, in cutscenes.. then there shouldn't be an issue. It would only feel long if you could care less about the story.

[Angrist]

Sometimes I'm already annoyed by the cutscenes in Super Mario Galaxy, where I'm getting launched to a new planet. I dislike losing control over Mario.

Ok with Ocarina of Time, good example... Maybe it's a love/hate relationship. I love the scenes, especially with Link. In the meanwhile I keep holding my controller, impatiently waiting to take control again. I enjoy the story, the quiet parts that can't be easily told in another way.
BUT! OoT does it wrong in one point. Dealing the final blow to Ganon. I HATED the game for stealing my kill. I was about to slash Ganon in the head when a cutscene starts that shows me what I wanted to do myself.

So maybe that's the problem right there.

[BreakABone]

Originally Posted by TheGame

I don't think the movie pausing to ask you where to go next is the same thing. If you really hate cutscenes in games that much though, that's unfortunate. haha

I think its the exact same thing.

You get it in your mind that whatever is happening will continue to happen, and then you are thrown for a loop (you have to stop watching your movie/playing your game)

I think cutscenes add life to a game that is impossible to achive through smashing buttons. It gives the world life, gives the characters personality, and gives the player motivation to keep moving.

If you don't understand the cutscenes I can see how it can kill the flow, but if you like the story it adds so much more to the game. If you like the story it doesn't even feel like the cutscene is something unnessicary or extra in the game.

But you are making it seem like cutscenes are the only way to add story to a game.

Look at Prince of Persia or Uncharted, they were able to add lots of story by just having the main character react to the world around them, not gonna say they didn't have cutscenes, but a lot of what you learn about the characters and your enemies come from comments made during the game.

I'm sure when you played Zelda OoT you didn't stop to question how long the scene where you first met the princess was, or the part where you move through time. The way I see it, as long as you're only watching dialogue and not actual fights your main character is involved in, in cutscenes.. then there shouldn't be an issue. It would only feel long if you could care less about the story.

So I guess I don't care about the stories then, not that many video game stories are all that special.

Originally Posted by Angrist

Sometimes I'm already annoyed by the cutscenes in Super Mario Galaxy, where I'm getting launched to a new planet. I dislike losing control over Mario.

Those aren't really cutscenes, more like transitional effects since you can mostly still interact with the world around Mario. Sure mostly to collect those gems, but you have some controls.

[TheGame]

Originally Posted by Angrist

Sometimes I'm already annoyed by the cutscenes in Super Mario Galaxy, where I'm getting launched to a new planet. I dislike losing control over Mario.

Ok with Ocarina of Time, good example... Maybe it's a love/hate relationship. I love the scenes, especially with Link. In the meanwhile I keep holding my controller, impatiently waiting to take control again. I enjoy the story, the quiet parts that can't be easily told in another way.
BUT! OoT does it wrong in one point. Dealing the final blow to Ganon. I HATED the game for stealing my kill. I was about to slash Ganon in the head when a cutscene starts that shows me what I wanted to do myself.

So maybe that's the problem right there.

Yeah, I agree with the last part, that's why I said: "The way I see it, as long as you're only watching dialouge and not actual fights your main character is involed in, in cutscenes.. then there shouldn't be an issue. It would only feel long if you could care less about the story."

The only time it has the potential to bug me is when its a fight scene with the main character in a cutscene.

[TheGame]

Originally Posted by BreakABone

I think its the exact same thing.

You get it in your mind that whatever is happening will continue to happen, and then you are thrown for a loop (you have to stop watching your movie/playing your game)

Nah its different. The only difference between a video game and a movie is that you control a lot of the action in a video game. There's not many video games rated above 90% on average where you control 100% of the action all the time. Its normal for a game to have cutscenes, its abnormal for a movie to have you make decisions.

Thus, its different.

But you are making it seem like cutscenes are the only way to add story to a game.

Look at Prince of Persia or Uncharted, they were able to add lots of story by just having the main character react to the world around them, not gonna say they didn't have cutscenes, but a lot of what you learn about the characters and your enemies come from comments made during the game.

Both of those games have cutscenes, which kills your own point.

So I guess I don't care about the stories then, not that many video game stories are all that special.

You probably don't.

I care about stories in games a lot. If a game has a good story its more immersive to me, and cutscenes is a good and widely used tool to help accomplish telling a good story.