New Political Debate: Drinking Age

[Jason1]

Originally Posted by KillerGremlin

So, a question to maybe ask is:

If we lowered or absolved the drinking age would we remove the mysticism associated with drinking and in effect lower the amount of alcohol abuse amongst teenagers?

Another fair question to ask is: with no drinking age would teens drink under more supervised/safer environments?

Changing the drinking age could, over time, change the cultural views on alcohol.

Okay, I have been given this a lot of thought lately also, and since im only 21 now I have recent experience on the matter. While I might have felt differently a few years ago, after some thought, I dont think lowering the drinking age to 18 will make kids drink less often, in less quantities, or less at all. When I drank underage, I never thought "Since im not suppoused to be doing this, im going to drink a LOT" I can see where the other side comes from, im actually going to do something I normally dont do and agree with Bond here. Its more of a cultural issue. Kids like to drink, and they like to do it a lot, especially college aged kids. I mean, when you turned 21 and it was legal to drink, did you all of a sudden stop drinking large amounts? Of course not, its still fun to drink a lot wether its legal or not. If this happens (which it absolutley wont happen in the foreseeable future, no way whatsoever), I feel it will just lead to more DUI deaths.

There were nights in my youth when I wanted to drink, but couldnt get alcohol. I can only imagine how much more I would have drank if I could have legally bought it.

[Typhoid]

This is what I basically think it comes down to: Upbringing. Nothing more, nothing less. You can make an argument that peer pressure is a factor, but if the kid is brought up right by the parents with proper morals and all that, peer pressure won't effect them as much, as their choice in friends might be more "proper".

Kids will do one of two things, depending on how their raised: Be like their parents because their parents do it; or be nothing like their parents because they resent their parents for doing something.

I think the problem is that for the majority, nobody parents kids anymore. Which leaves a vast group of kids being raised by TV, and their friends parents, which is bad in itself, because another person's mom and dad won't instill the same values on you as they would with their own kids.

There is nothing - at all - you can ever do to get rid of drinking and driving. Kids will do it, adults will do it, premiers will do it. It's just something that will happen. If you don't want your kids to drink and drive, give them ultimatums as a parents, talk to your kids. Be a fucking parent to them, don't blame a substance they went to because either A) You drink all the time as a parent or B) Never took the time out of your busy schedule to even talk to your kids about the seriousness of alcohol consumption.

The problem lies only in parenting. That's my two cents.

[KillerGremlin]

Originally Posted by Jason1

Okay, I have been given this a lot of thought lately also, and since im only 21 now I have recent experience on the matter. While I might have felt differently a few years ago, after some thought, I dont think lowering the drinking age to 18 will make kids drink less often, in less quantities, or less at all. When I drank underage, I never thought "Since im not suppoused to be doing this, im going to drink a LOT" I can see where the other side comes from, im actually going to do something I normally dont do and agree with Bond here. Its more of a cultural issue. Kids like to drink, and they like to do it a lot, especially college aged kids. I mean, when you turned 21 and it was legal to drink, did you all of a sudden stop drinking large amounts? Of course not, its still fun to drink a lot wether its legal or not. If this happens (which it absolutley wont happen in the foreseeable future, no way whatsoever), I feel it will just lead to more DUI deaths.

There were nights in my youth when I wanted to drink, but couldnt get alcohol. I can only imagine how much more I would have drank if I could have legally bought it.

I agree with the 18-year old logic; if you are an "adult" at 18 by law, you should be able to drink. Otherwise, you're not really an adult....I'm talking about by legal definition by the way, not the subjective age at which someone becomes an adult.

Now, ideally, I'd like to see the drinking age go away altogether. But it won't happen because people will not accept personal responsibility. Here are the big benefits I see of removing the drinking age or removing penalties from catching minors drinking:
-kids will drink in safer or supervised environments
-kids won't be afraid to call their parents if they are drinking (this is a social stigma...some parents would be upset if their child drank, some wouldn't)
-we can slowly instill the idea that alcohol is not a magical drink at a young age

alcohol is a drink...and, when used in excess can have problematic results. same goes with sugar, or caffeine, or speeding.


In my ideal world, my fairy tale, we would charge DUI offenders with attempted murder - because that is what a DUI is.

Less drunks on the road, more teens drinking at home where they can be supervised. Less trouble.

The fact is, people will ALWAYS abuse alcohol. It does not matter what restrictions you have in place....people do not like moderation. Most everyone who drinks that I know have drank too much or gone past their limit. I guess it is part of our social culture surrounding drinking. I'd rather see people pushing that limit in a supervised environment rather than sneaking around or going to frat parties.


Anyway...that's my 2 cents on a subject we will not be able to resolve.

PS I'll be 21 in a few months....I'm excited to be able to go buy beer without going through someone.

[manasecret]

Originally Posted by KillerGremlin

In my ideal world, my fairy tale, we would charge DUI offenders with attempted murder - because that is what a DUI is.

In that case, even driving sober should be considered attempted murder. The number of people who die from vehicle accidents every year is so high I can't believe it isn't talked about more. It's amazing to me that any of us are even allowed to drive vehicles, considering how dangerous it is.

I guess driving drunk would then be considered aggravated attempted murder?

[Bond]

Seriously, there are so many people who should not be allowed to drive a vehicle (like a lot of my friends). There's also a lot of 80+ citizens who should have their license revoked.

[manasecret]

When I said any of us, I meant that -- you, me, and everyone else should not be allowed to drive. Everyone thinks they're the best driver in the world.

I think what we should do is replace our individual driving system with the mass transportation system from Minority Report. Anyone remember that?

[KillerGremlin]

I always thought if MADD wanted to accomplish something they would push to raise the driving age. How many 15 and 16 year-old kids use level-headed rationalization while driving?

But more to the point, driving is already deadly...adding alcohol to the mix only escalates the problem. I'd call it "unintentional attempted murder." I think it would be reasonable to charge the bar or party host for letting someone drive home drunk too. What is the person called who helps someone plan a murder? "Accomplice in murder." That sounds about right.

[Vampyr]

Originally Posted by manasecret

In that case, even driving sober should be considered attempted murder. The number of people who die from vehicle accidents every year is so high I can't believe it isn't talked about more. It's amazing to me that any of us are even allowed to drive vehicles, considering how dangerous it is.

I guess driving drunk would then be considered aggravated attempted murder?

Pretty bad reasoning. The amount of people who are alive that die is also staggering, but you don't outlaw living. You could also say that people walking out the front door of their house are putting themselves and others in danger, but you don't outlaw going outside just because accidents happen.

There's a difference between going outside and going outside holding the trigger down a fully loaded machine gun, which is comparable to driving sober or driving drunk.

[Jason1]

Okay, I see your point KillerGremlein, but just because the drinking age is lowered does not mean kids are all of a sudden only going to drink at home with the parents in a controlled environment...frat parties will still go on, and kids will still drink in excessive and or potentially dangerous amounts...

[Bond]

Originally Posted by Jason1

Okay, I have been given this a lot of thought lately also, and since im only 21 now I have recent experience on the matter. While I might have felt differently a few years ago, after some thought, I dont think lowering the drinking age to 18 will make kids drink less often, in less quantities, or less at all. When I drank underage, I never thought "Since im not suppoused to be doing this, im going to drink a LOT" I can see where the other side comes from, im actually going to do something I normally dont do and agree with Bond here. Its more of a cultural issue. Kids like to drink, and they like to do it a lot, especially college aged kids. I mean, when you turned 21 and it was legal to drink, did you all of a sudden stop drinking large amounts? Of course not, its still fun to drink a lot wether its legal or not. If this happens (which it absolutley wont happen in the foreseeable future, no way whatsoever), I feel it will just lead to more DUI deaths.

Exactly. And whenever the government tries to control culture it just doesn't work (see: prohibition). I think lawmakers should view this issue through a very utilitarian mindset, and that will result in the maximizing of the good for all citizens.

[KillerGremlin]

Originally Posted by Jason1

Okay, I see your point KillerGremlein, but just because the drinking age is lowered does not mean kids are all of a sudden only going to drink at home with the parents in a controlled environment...frat parties will still go on, and kids will still drink in excessive and or potentially dangerous amounts...

I assume that to be the case....I doubt any age restriction will stop binge drinking or abusive drinking. It just goes hand-in-hand with college, and with the freedom of being away from home. Oddly though, I still think we could help a percentage of people by exposing them to alcohol at a younger age or in a safer environment. It has been my experience/observation that college is not the best place to learn your drinking limitations.

I do think that many people try to stay a few drinks below their limit...I know I do. When I want to drink to get drunk I try to drink as few drinks as possible and get in that comfortable zone. I'd rather not wake up with a splitting hangover. But I also enjoy drinking a beer with dinner...I enjoy wine...and I'm trying to start to enjoy hard liquor. You don't have to drink in excess to enjoy alcohol. Beer and wine are sophisticated drinks that can be enjoyed with a meal.


Like Bond said, I think this is a complex social problem. Hence why I think we should keep the drinking age at 18 or 21.

[manasecret]

Originally Posted by Vampyr

Pretty bad reasoning. The amount of people who are alive that die is also staggering, but you don't outlaw living. You could also say that people walking out the front door of their house are putting themselves and others in danger, but you don't outlaw going outside just because accidents happen.

There's a difference between going outside and going outside holding the trigger down a fully loaded machine gun, which is comparable to driving sober or driving drunk.

Ok, first off let me clarify and say that I was being glib and I don't really think that driving should be made illegal. Life as we know it wouldn't exist without vehicles, so we can't just outlaw them even if we could. (Sound familiar to drinking?)

My intention was to bring up just how dangerous driving is. Assuming the stats from Acebot's link that 17,448 died in 2001 from alcohol related vehicle accidents and the stat from my link that 43,200/year is also from 2001, that means 40% of vehicle deaths were related to alcohol. That still leaves 25,752 deaths from sober drivers, and it's not like you can really separate getting drunk from the driving part. The deaths caused by drinking and walking home is virtually zero compared to driving drunk. Driving is still the dangerous part of the equation here. So your analogy doesn't really hold up.

A lot more can be done to make driving safer that simply isn't done because people would throw a hissy fit if it were implemented. Do you have red light cameras around where you are? I think they're great, but the amount of people who bitch and moan about getting caught running red lights is laughable. Here's an idea, guys -- don't run red lights!

But I digress. I think we should implement similar systems to control speeding. Speeding cameras are a simple method. We could also introduce chips that force cars to not go over a posted speed limit. These are easily feasible systems. The speeding cameras have been tried from over a decade ago near here. But what happened? The public outcry put it out of commission.

Sorry to hijack the thread. I guess I should make another debate thread about this, but I'm not very good at starting discussions.

[BreakABone]

I say make the drinking age 2. They have to start somewhere.

Reminds me of the summer, I taught pre-school kids shoulders.

[Bond]

Originally Posted by KillerGremlin

I assume that to be the case....I doubt any age restriction will stop binge drinking or abusive drinking. It just goes hand-in-hand with college, and with the freedom of being away from home. Oddly though, I still think we could help a percentage of people by exposing them to alcohol at a younger age or in a safer environment. It has been my experience/observation that college is not the best place to learn your drinking limitations.

I do think that many people try to stay a few drinks below their limit...I know I do. When I want to drink to get drunk I try to drink as few drinks as possible and get in that comfortable zone. I'd rather not wake up with a splitting hangover. But I also enjoy drinking a beer with dinner...I enjoy wine...and I'm trying to start to enjoy hard liquor. You don't have to drink in excess to enjoy alcohol. Beer and wine are sophisticated drinks that can be enjoyed with a meal.


Like Bond said, I think this is a complex social problem. Hence why I think we should keep the drinking age at 18 or 21.

I think that's why lawmakers just need to look at detailed statistics and analysis of those statistics, and craft a law that makes the drinking age (whatever), that will do the most good and the least harm. I don't see how one can go about this issue other than a purely utilitarian way.

That being said, the government is probably the least effective institution to help substance abuse problems in America. Like Typhoid said, it's families, it's private organizations, communities, etc. They have been, and always will be, far more effective than any law or government. And those private people and organizations can change the culture, but the government can't.

[Jason1]

I will admit, that in many cases (not all), kids who grew up with strict parents then all of a sudden go away to college, are oftentimes the wildest because their not used to it. People who had been casually exposed to drinking at an earlier time are less likely to go ape shit crazy in college.

Then there's the other side, those that actually continue to abide by their parents rules after they are out of the house...lame!