Fuck You China

[Ginkasa]

Originally Posted by Seth

since when did the censorship get lifted in the tav?

Probably the same time most everybody turned older than, like, 15, and we realized we're pretty much an internal community that some 10 year old is just going to stumble upon and if they do who cares?

[Professor S]

Originally Posted by Typhoid

You mean like how the US presidential election was?

All hail President Gore.

I figured thats all you'd have to say, and even that shows a severe ignorance when it comes to the US electoral college and our voting process in general. Answer my questions correctly and then I'll consider what you have to say about the Iraq war and US politics in general. Until then, its like talking about quantum physics with a Phys Ed teacher.

Probably the same time most everybody turned older than, like, 15, and we realized we're pretty much an internal community that some 10 year old is just going to stumble upon and if they do who cares?

Even I didn't fight the change in policy, and I'm the resident censor. No point in cenrsoring if there is no one to "protect". Everyone here is of age and its not like we attract the youth market with our political and existential arguments.

[The Germanator]

Did anyone read the issue of Vice magazine about Iraq? It was a very personal and intriguing touch on a war we usually just see through the TV...Good insight to how people actually feel about Americans, and it's not good. They jokes that used to make about Hussein they now make about Americans. Obviously this was a small segment of the population interviewed, but it's a pretty good read.

[Jonbo298]

Originally Posted by Professor S

I figured thats all you'd have to say, and even that shows a severe ignorance when it comes to the US electoral college and our voting process in general. Answer my questions correctly and then I'll consider what you have to say about the Iraq war and US politics in general. Until then, its like talking about quantum physics with a Phys Ed teacher.

Popular vote

[Typhoid]

Originally Posted by Professor S

I figured thats all you'd have to say, and even that shows a severe ignorance when it comes to the US electoral college and our voting process in general. Answer my questions correctly and then I'll consider what you have to say about the Iraq war and US politics in general. Until then, its like talking about quantum physics with a Phys Ed teacher.

Ah, you're taking the popular "I'm going to act like a pretentious snob and better than you because I want to come off seeming high and mighty while trying to avoid every conversation that I didn't directly bring up, while completely ignoring a post made by someone else because it goes against what I believe in" route, eh?

And nomatter what I answer, you won't "deem" it "correct".
Technically, any answer I give is correct.
I can make the answer to everything you asked be "peanut butter", and I wouldn't be wrong.
Answers are subjective, and we both know that.


And wait, did you just end that with another subtle, back handed personal attack at me?

I didn't see that one coming.

And okay, you want me to answer them "correctly", do you?

1) What regime has taken over Iraq? I know what your answer will be, but its funny to watch you put it in print.

Peanut Butter.

2) What type of government is currently in place in Iraq?

An anarchistic forced democracy. And everyone should know you can't force democracy. It's something that has to happen on it's own. It's like trying to foce evolution and change in a species. You can influence it, you can manipulate it, but in the end it won't turn out as it's supposed to originally. It will be greatly flawed, unless it takes a natural course. While the Iraqi people may actually want Democracy, and want that change, you can't go in there and force them to change. They need to do it on their own. They need to have a civil revolt under their own power, not a forced hand pushing them towards it, because then those who oppose Democracy, will just get more violent towards the entire thing. While we all know Democracy is the greater good, you still can't force it. Then it's not really going to be Democracy, it will be highly influenced from outside sources, and not actually be "Democracy" in the sense of the word. And I know you'll end up quoting the dictionary on that, and counter-ask "Well what's Democracy then?" without really thinking about what I even said. Because god knows you take more than 5 seconds to process a post I make.

3) How exactly is America imposing their will on the Iraqi people, beyond removing Saddam Hussein by force (you know, killer of 1.5 million Iraqis)?

"We're a deocracy. We believe in Democracy. You need to believe in Democracy too."
I'm not saying Democracy isn't good, but even you cannot deny that they are attempting to force their will - Democracy - on the Iraqi people.

4) What was the percentage of Iraqi's who voted in their first open election?

79.6. I never said the percent would be low, and I never said they wouldn't vote. I said it wouldn't work.
PS an average of about 50% of Americans vote. So is Iraqi Democracy better than American Democracy? "Fuck no, America's the best nation on the world. Fuck yeah."

5) What percentage of civilian deaths have been caused by US military engagements?

Teuth went over that.
Peanut Butter.

[Professor S]

Typhoid, I'm so glad you replied. Now I get to point out every single contradiction you posted. And by the way, you did get one question right.

An anarchistic forced democracy.

Do you realize that doesn't even make sense? The sentence actually contradicts itself. And by the way, I process every post you make we have our conversations, not unlike how I process a Slim Jim on my colon.

As for the force part, that you mention several times in this post

I'm not saying Democracy isn't good, but even you cannot deny that they are attempting to force their will - Democracy - on the Iraqi people.

And yet you say:

79.6 [percent voted]. I never said the percent would be low, and I never said they wouldn't vote. I said it wouldn't work.

No, you said we were forcing democracy on them. Did US soldiers hold gun to the back of the heads of Iraqi's to make them vote? On the contrary, most voted under the threat of violence from mostly outside forces. They risked their lives to vote in a democratic election. So explain to me how we are forcing democracy, instead of helping a free people tray and start one? On a side not, thatnk you for googling that percentage right before you posted. Thats the one question you actually got right.

So is Iraqi Democracy better than American Democracy? "Fuck no, America's the best nation on the world. Fuck yeah."

Actually, I envy the passion that their people have for freedoms that have never been made available to them. We take our democratic governments for granted, they don't yet have that luxury. There is so much potential that Iraq has. Potential not only to flourish for its people, but to literally change the world by example. To simply say that they can;t achieve it is not only negative thinking, I believe its based on borderline racism.


Typhoid, the reason why I insult you isn't because I disagree with you. I disagree with most posters in this forum when it comes to politics, yet I don;t attack them and belittle them. So why do I pick on you?

You are willing ignoramus. Not only do you not base your vocal opinions on actual fact, I think you actually try and AVOID informed opinion. You don;t want to deal with real information or base your beliefs on anything outside of feelings and emotion.

Other liberals on this forum, while I disagree with them, at least take the time to read the news, or research a fact. I don't believe you do, and worse yet, I don't think you feel any obligation to yourself or others that read whatever drivel comes out of your keyboard to do so either.

I'm done trying to actually have discussions with you. Its much more fun to set you up to post infiormation and then pick that information apart and expose your willing ignorance.

[Typhoid]

No, you said we were forcing democracy on them. Did US soldiers hold gun to the back of the heads of Iraqi's to make them vote? On the contrary, most voted under the threat of violence from mostly outside forces. They risked their lives to vote in a democratic election. So explain to me how we are forcing democracy, instead of helping a free people tray and start one? On a side not, thatnk you for googling that percentage right before you posted. Thats the one question you actually got right.

The fact that there was a high turnout, doesnt change the fact you're trying to change their government. That's what I'm getting at, and I made that completely clear, and you know I did.

100% of the people of Iraq could have voted, and yet it would still be forcing Democracy on them. Your country went in there. Your country 'said' "Change this, it's better." Despite the fact a large number voted, gun-to-head or not, it still won't work completely, as it should. As I said, you cannot force Democracy. A high turnout does not equate a working system.

Do you realize that doesn't even make sense? The sentence actually contradicts itself.

Stop being so literal, and stop acting so high and mighty, and just for a second, just one, think about something that is said that doesn't suit your standard.
I realize it's an oxymoron. It was meant to be. I would call it an Anarchistic Democracy because while you have a democratic form set up in the country, it's still pretty much almost under seemingly martial law.


[quote]There is so much potential that Iraq has. Potential not only to flourish for its people, but to literally change the world by example. To simply say that they can;t achieve it is not only negative thinking, I believe its based on borderline racism.[quote]

Show me where I said Democracy wouldn't work, hands down in Iraq?
I said it wont work properly with the intervention of an outside source making it change.

And really, insult me all you want.
90% of the other posters on this site grew out of that phase years ago, yet there you are, still holding strong. If it makes you feel special, and snicker to yourself, who am I to argue with your childish sense of humour.

Also:

[quote]I think you actually try and AVOID informed opinion. You don;t want to deal with real information or base your beliefs on anything outside of feelings and emotion.[quote]

With such a large grasp on the English language that you have, I would have thought someone may have taught you to never follow up a sentence of "I think" with one you are trying to pass off as fact.

And for the record, no - I don't avoid informed opinion. But I have yet to see any. You do the same thing I do, yet you don't notice it. Neither of us use facts. And you know why? Because we debate. You don't need to bring out facts, and slam down quotes when you're talking of personal opinions.

[Professor S]

Originally Posted by Typhoid

The fact that there was a high turnout, doesnt change the fact you're trying to change their government. That's what I'm getting at, and I made that completely clear, and you know I did.

100% of the people of Iraq could have voted, and yet it would still be forcing Democracy on them. Your country went in there. Your country 'said' "Change this, it's better." Despite the fact a large number voted, gun-to-head or not, it still won't work completely, as it should. As I said, you cannot force Democracy. A high turnout does not equate a working system.

1) If people are willingly voting and choosing their own form of democracy, how is it being forced? You still haven't answered that simple question. The Iraqi people are taking advantage of a situation that they never had the luxury of having, but by the sheer fact that the US facilitated it, I guess it means imperialism to you.

2) Even if we are "forcing" democracy, IT HAS WORKED BEFORE. Its called post WW2 Germany. First West, and eventually East.

Stop being so literal, and stop acting so high and mighty, and just for a second, just one, think about something that is said that doesn't suit your standard.
I realize it's an oxymoron. It was meant to be. I would call it an Anarchistic Democracy because while you have a democratic form set up in the country, it's still pretty much almost under seemingly martial law.

Its called a demcracy trying to form, not and anarchistic one. You imply, whether you mean it or not, that the chaos is welcome and encouraged. Its not and in fact most hate it because it comes from outside the country.

Show me where I said Democracy wouldn't work, hands down in Iraq?
I said it wont work properly with the intervention of an outside source making it change.

79.6. I never said the percent would be low, and I never said they wouldn't vote. I said it wouldn't work.

Nuff said.

And really, insult me all you want.
90% of the other posters on this site grew out of that phase years ago, yet there you are, still holding strong. If it makes you feel special, and snicker to yourself, who am I to argue with your childish sense of humour.

90% of poster grew out of posting uninformed opinion. Its called "growth".

Also:
With such a large grasp on the English language that you have, I would have thought someone may have taught you to never follow up a sentence of "I think" with one you are trying to pass off as fact.

And for the record, no - I don't avoid informed opinion. But I have yet to see any. You do the same thing I do, yet you don't notice it. Neither of us use facts. And you know why? Because we debate. You don't need to bring out facts, and slam down quotes when you're talking of personal opinions.

That entire section is utterly amazing. The sheer amount of links and citations that have been posted on these forums by political commentators counts in the HUNDREDS if not THOUSANDS.

Also, you keep saying that fact and opinion are separate, but opinion that it respected and makes sense is forever connected to fact and logic. You cannot have a respected opinion if you never bother to respect it by challenging it with information.

Doctors have opinions, Typhoid. Would you care about their opinion about your appendix if your doctor never bothered to read a textbook? Hey, its still an opinion, right? Worht arguing about?

No, ita not, and neither are yours. Stop allowing others to tell you what your opinion is, and trust me they do, and get an opinion of your own.

I'm done with this pathetic little circle we've danced for the past few years. Its hopeless.

[Typhoid]

You idiot.

When i said "It wouldn't work" we both know I meant while Iraq is being occupied - so to speak - by the Americans. Do I have to say "While the Americans are there" every time I'm talking about Democracy in a negative light in Iraq for you to get it through your head, or something? I can't believe you'd be so childish as to not even think about what I meant, and take the first eyeball's chance you can to try and cut me down with your "lolz, u contradikted urselff". Which no, I didn't do.

90% of poster grew out of posting uninformed opinion. Its called "growth".

Opinion doesn't have to be informed. That's what generally makes it an opinion. Information, and opinions are both subjective. You should know that by now, of all people. I can't believe even you're too dense to understand that you don't need a fact to have a thought. "Uninformed opinion", too - is an opinion. And thusly, is subjective.

Doctors have opinions, Typhoid. Would you care about their opinion about your appendix if your doctor never bothered to read a textbook? Hey, its still an opinion, right? Worht arguing about?

his job is to tell you what's wrong with you. Therefore, he needs to know it, you dolt.

We are not pundits.
We're people posting on an internet forum.
We don't need the facts to tell someone else something.
Neither of us get paid for it.
We're not hired.
We're normal people have a conversation.
If the doctor never picked up a book in his life, and tried to tell me what's wrong with him, I'd first wonder why the fuck he is a doctor if he's not informed, considering that is his job, then I'd wonder I would be in a doctor's office who hired doctors who didn't even know what they were doing.

But you see, if that doctor was on the street, and said the same thing. Then it would be okay for him to never read a book. Because he's just a person giving his opinion of what's wrong. He's not saying "I'm a doctor, you're in my office. I'm getting paid for this, this is what I think is wrong, but hey, I'm not sure."

I can't believe you'd make such a stupid comparison as that, really.

Stop allowing others to tell you what your opinion is, and trust me they do, and get an opinion of your own.

That's just so easy to pick apart in a Strangler-eque way, that I won't even do it justice, because I hope to god you posted that to be ironic.

[Typhoid]

(It wont let me edit?)


And before you say "Information isn't subjective", yes, it is. If you don't like a "fact", you disregard it. And no, I don;t mean you as in YOU, I mean it encompassing everyone. The easiest thing to relate it to is evolution. It's a fact things evolve and change. It's a fact. Do Catholics believe it? No, they dont. That's a different can of worms which I'm not even trying to bring up, it's just an example.

[Neo]

Originally Posted by Link1130

Probably the same time most everybody turned older than, like, 15, and we realized we're pretty much an internal community that some 10 year old is just going to stumble upon and if they do who cares?

Originally CamFu and Crash intended GameTavern to be a family-friendly kid-orientated place, but I agree we've all grown up and I don't think any of you are going to become corrupted because of something you read here. I don't mind having the censors off as long as people don't start abusing it. We can all behave like adults and use whatever words are appropriate for the situation. Now if every one of your sentences contains a "f#ck this" or "f#ck that" then yeah I'll probably turn the filters back on.

As far as the personal arguments go, you guys are old enough to not need babysitters. I'm content to let you guys work out your own disputes, as I think you learn more that way then by someone forcing you to break it off and make up. However, I will say that resorting to personal attacks often hurts you more than the other person. I have a hard time taking anyone seriously who has to resort to insulting others to get their point across, regardless of the merits of their position.

[Professor S]

Typhoid, I'll leave you with this, and I say this in all seriousness. If you ever want anything you say, opinion or no, to be taken seriously, start informing the opinion.

The doctor comparison was valid. If you have an opinion on something as complex as world politics, why wouldn't you want to base it on facts. My analysis of world politics comes from careful analysis of news, both mainstream and otherwise. A doctor's opinion comes from years of study and practice. I am not claiming the expertise of a doctor, but I do take pride in my study of world events and using them to enlighten my opinions and challenge those opinions I disagree with. You seem to think that facts are subjective and evdience is not needed when it comes to opinion. Fact is NECESSARY for thought probvoking and enlightening opinion. Do I often cite the facts that I mention in my posts? No, not any more, but I used to consistently and accurately. But then again, I have a pretty good track record of not bullshitting the facts I post to support my opinion. I don't feel the need to cite every little piece of evidence anymore. But any time you'd like to challenge what I say with fact or citation, feel free. In fact I encourage you to do so. You very well could find something that I had missed that could change my opinion. It has happened more than once on this forum.

If you don't want to take the time to validate your opinions with fact and evidence, why would you bother posting them? Its masturbatory. You post them just to have them in writing.

I post political opinion, because I want to share that opinion and help others grow from it. I also read others opinions to help myself grow as well. There are all kinds of ideas and facts that have been posted here that have helped me form better ideas and opinions, even if its just researching them and finding flaws, if there are any. The act of being challenged causes the growth.

All opinions are NOT equal. There are idealists, philosphers, pragmatists and opinions makers. There are also fools. I beg you to avoid the latter.

[Ginkasa]

Originally Posted by Neo

Originally CamFu and Crash intended GameTavern to be a family-friendly kid-orientated place, but I agree we've all grown up and I don't think any of you are going to become corrupted because of something you read here. I don't mind having the censors off as long as people don't start abusing it. We can all behave like adults and use whatever words are appropriate for the situation. Now if every one of your sentences contains a "f#ck this" or "f#ck that" then yeah I'll probably turn the filters back on.

As far as the personal arguments go, you guys are old enough to not need babysitters. I'm content to let you guys work out your own disputes, as I think you learn more that way then by someone forcing you to break it off and make up. However, I will say that resorting to personal attacks often hurts you more than the other person. I have a hard time taking anyone seriously who has to resort to insulting others to get their point across, regardless of the merits of their position.

So, I was wondering why you and Prof. S quoted me then said basically the same thing I did, when I realized I forgot to put the "not" in "is not just going to stumble upon."

So, if you interpreted my post as sarcasm deriding the lack of a filter, its not what I meant.

And if you really did know what I meant and were just reiterating, ignore me. I'm not very smart.

Anyway...