You know...some irony

[Jonbo298]

Bush and others have been pushing for Democracy in the Middle East and well...Palestinians (sp?) had a democratic election basically and elected a Terrorist group. What surprises me kinda is that the news media hasnt grasped that Bush and the administration push for Democracy and ahve seen it go exactly the opposite of what they wanted.

[KillerGremlin]

I like Bush:










I don't get what everyone's problem is.

[Professor S]

Originally Posted by Jonbo298

Bush and others have been pushing for Democracy in the Middle East and well...Palestinians (sp?) had a democratic election basically and elected a Terrorist group. What surprises me kinda is that the news media hasnt grasped that Bush and the administration push for Democracy and ahve seen it go exactly the opposite of what they wanted.

The idea was to start a democracy in one of the more westernized countries in the Middle East. Iraq has a great amount of infrstructure, resources and educated people. Its almost the ideal country located in the Middle East in which to start a democracy (Iran being the best, IMO).

Meanwhile, Palestine isn't even a nation and they've been embroiled in a bitter feud with Israel for decades if not thousands of years. I'm not happy about the election in the least, but their situation is a unique one in their region and maybe unique in the entire world. Hamas being elected is horrific, though, and pretty much destroys all of the progress that has been made over the last few years.

Also, the Palestinian election isn't the only example of Middle Eastern democracy under the Bush whitehouse. There is also Afghanistan and Iraq, with both election running pretty smoothly considering the violence in the region and with satisfactory results.

My opinion on Middle Eastern democracy? Its too late. The writing is already on the wall and its written in blood. I stated not too long ago that I thought there would be a war between Islam and the west within 50 years, and I'm going to change that prediction.

There will be blood in the streets on every Western European nation within 10-15 years. Islam will grow to the point that it will not tolerate Western/Christian democracy and there will be violence that makes the violence seen today look like a Cabbage Patch picnic. We can already see the signs today. First the month long riot that ran across France, now embassies are being attacked and news organizations are knucking under to fear because of a ****ING CARTOON.

The only thing that will prevent violence is either europe giving governing control to Islamic groups to avoid violence or islam goes under a massive reformation in the next decade. I was hoping that installing democracy in the Middle East would prevent the coming storm, but its already too late.

All I have to say is that I thank God I live in the US where I have millions of crazy-ass tobacco chewing, gun toting evangelicals who won't let that happen here. How about that for irony?

[Teuthida]

I miss Sadam.

[GameMaster]

Do you think Saddam has been sodom'd in prison yet?

[manasecret]

Originally Posted by Professor S

There will be blood in the streets on every Western European nation within 10-15 years. Islam will grow to the point that it will not tolerate Western/Christian democracy and there will be violence that makes the violence seen today look like a Cabbage Patch picnic. We can already see the signs today. First the month long riot that ran across France, now embassies are being attacked and news organizations are knucking under to fear because of a ****ING CARTOON.

Lot of talk of a clash of civilizations over this cartoon. The NY Times had a great editorial a couple weeks back about it. The Iranian response is to make cartoons about Hitler sleeping with Anne Frank -- funny how we're not rioting to such childish, sophomoric antics.

I also think the violence is ridiculous and it leads me to believe that there are some differences between the west and Muslims that won't be resolved with, "here's your democracy, now don't blow each other up."

But as all signs seem to point to a clash of civilizations -- ie. the French riots and now the cartoon riots -- I wonder if I'm not just looking for the simple answer and forgetting something. I mean, clash of civlizations seems to be what's happening, but is it really? Is there actually going to be a civilization war from here on out? Will that actually lead to an all out war, WWIII perhaps?

Something good that comes from this: I think the majority of Europe is finally waking up to how idiotic and dangerous radical Islam is. Maybe they'll stop their appeasement now ie. Spain appeasement, ie. France, Germany, Italy, etc. being anti-Iraq war. I don't know if they're actually waking up, but since many newspapers throughout Europe are reprinting the cartoons in solidarity with the Danish newspaper in support of freedom of the press, my feeling is that they're waking up.

[Typhoid]

This wont ever be resolved for a simple reason: Religion.


Like I've said before, it's the cause of the majority of all wars, and since religion wont go away, neither will war.

I'm not saying religion causes war. Religion causes the difference in opinions which sparks the wars.

The only way to stop wars, is to assimilate. And assimilation takes time. It's slowly happening now, and with any assimilation attempt, you can expect a backlash, that makes the reason you started to go there, foolish.

Yes, I can see the war getting more out of hand, and brought to the forefront of the media again sometime soon, but that is to be expected.

I mean, if Britain came to Canada tomorrow, and started telling us we have to go back to a Monarchy, and all be Catholics, I'm sure there would be some form of revolt, and I'm sure forcing us to change our government wouldnt change that.

But the war getting worse isinevitable, everything has to get worse, before it gets better. It's just the fact that 'worse' is relative.

[Dylflon]

The middle east will never cease to be a tricky situation.

The Middle East is like that aunt with a really big mole on her face who shows up to family dinners. Nobody wants to really talk about it or look at it, but there's no way you can't notice it.

Key problem: Muslim ideals are different than ours. Sure, most of them just want the things we want: a job, some money, a family, and to enjoy their lives. But of course you have the extremists. Now, the extremists make up a small percent of the Muslim world. But with about a billion of them, a small percentage still makes up a pretty large number of people. Their religion does preach peace but it also preaches hatred towards the infidels (i.e. us guys).

Now my belief has always been not to mess with the bastards. They are so backwards in most places that no good can come of us marching in there and telling them that we're giving them what they want. When the U.S. leaves Iraw, there's going to be some Iraqis who will be pretty sore about being occupied.

Now, their religion speaks of a holy war between them and the infidels. If you know how fundamentalists work, they see these prophecies and then they try to fulfill them. With such a large number of them, it's easy to get a mob going over a cartoon. By the way Denmark, Muslim rule #1 is to never create an image of Muhammed. Way to go, guys. We should be focused on not fueling their fires.

You can't really just go to an Eastern country and install a western democracy like it was planting a seed and then expect a tree to grow out of their coarse, hot sand.

I can't say I have any answers to this dilemma, but I do know that I'd rather not be in a religious war with the biggest damn religion in the world.

[KillerGremlin]

Originally Posted by Dylflon

Key problem: Muslim ideals are different than ours. Sure, most of them just want the things we want: a job, some money, a family, and to enjoy their lives. But of course you have the extremists. Now, the extremists make up a small percent of the Muslim world. But with about a billion of them, a small percentage still makes up a pretty large number of people. Their religion does preach peace but it also preaches hatred towards the infidels (i.e. us guys).

million, i'm assuming

[Teuthida]

No, Typhoid is correct. 1.79 billion to be exact as of 2006.

[Teuthida]

Originally Posted by manasecret

Lot of talk of a clash of civilizations over this cartoon. The NY Times had a great editorial a couple weeks back about it. The Iranian response is to make cartoons about Hitler sleeping with Anne Frank -- funny how we're not rioting to such childish, sophomoric antics.

Mohammed is never suppose to be visually represented according to Islamic law. So if there's a cartoon depicted him...with a bomb as a turban no less...they're gonna be pretty damn pissed. It's not like with Jesus who's been pimped to extremes (Jesus sports statues collections...Buddy Jesus...etc.) If their goal was to make a cartoon to piss off Americans that could be easily done. But would bad on their part because what do the crazy religious nuts in the middle of the country who voted for Bush and who have never even been to NYC care so much about?: 9/11. But if they made a cartoon about that they would just be feeding the terrorists perception everyone seems to have about Muslims these days. They could piss off a country by itself, but Chrisitianity is too divided and made fun of constantly by people calling them Chrisitians anyway to care. Jewish people have heard every damn joke possibly about their people. And Hitler has been depicted comically for so long he lost his evil punch anway. Some people are actually serious about their religion.

And then again just sounds like a crappy cartoon.

[Professor S]

Here's the difference between the reactions of Christians to a religious cartoon and the reaction of Islam to a religious cartoon:

Burned cars, riots, violence and death.

I will repeat: Islam needs a massive reformation. Being Muslim is not an excuse to resort to violence anytime a person of a different faith says anything bad about your religion.

Freedom and Islam do not make good bedfellows. Until changes are made in Islam to allow for personal freedoms, there will be a culture clash and it will continue to be incresingly violent.

[Typhoid]

Originally Posted by Professor S

Here's the difference between the reactions of Christians to a religious cartoon and the reaction of Islam to a religious cartoon:

Burned cars, riots, violence and death.
.

Christains would do that too, if there werent strict laws in civilized countries.