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Old 02-09-2002, 02:27 PM   #151
nWoCHRISnWo
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"Oh come now-- you don't need to stoop to insults, my friend"

That right before you insult me three or four times. You're an idiot. :eek: Oh look, another insult! Wah-wah! It doesn't take anything away from my post, and it's not exactly an insult if it's true.

"And do try to take things in context. If you would take a second look and read my post more carefully, you might catch the small fact that I said that in response to one of the atheists in here saying "I am tired of Christians trying to convince me that there is a God." Ahh, here it is. now read again and try to look at the bigger picture instead of finding every little problem you can with my posts."

I think YOU need to read over some things sometimes... READ THE TITLE OF THIS TOPIC. It CLEARLY states: "Don't believe in God? Why not?" So what the hell do you think we're gonna do? This WHOLE topic is about us non-believers telling you why we don't believe. I tell you I don't believe in god because it's what the topic is about! I don't give a **** if you do believe in god, because that's not what this topic is about... So you saying you're tired of people telling you there isn't a god is STUPID. If you were so tired of it, then why'd you come into the topic about it? That's like somebody going into a topic called "Dogs" and saying "I hate talknig about dogs." Do you see how retarded that is now?

"Hmm-- can I prove there is a God. Tell you what-- look at the other hundred or so posts here and read a little. You just might see that everyone here understands that there is no way to prove that there is or isn't a God"

...What in the blue hell is your point? That's EXACTLY what I'm talking about! I can respond with the exact quote that you responded to because you didn't answer a damn thing. There is no way to prove there is a god, and who was arguing that point? Like I said in my other post that you ignored (yet you tell me I ignore some of the things in your post) nobody can prove there isn't a god because you religious people conveniently made the story that you have to die to know if god is there or not. If you can see god anyother way, then please do tell because sdtpikachu, millions of other people, and I haven't seen him yet. And if you're dead, how can you possibly tell people he's not there? YOU COULDN'T. And that's my point...

"And once more, I do believe your logic is flawed."

Oh, really? Ya know what... I don't give a ****. It's MY logic, I (*I*) think it's logical. And what exactly is flawed about my logic? Have YOU ever seen am all powerful superbeing? What is that, you haven't? Okay great, so we haven't ever seen something like it, but because you read about it in a book you believe it. Yet, you think MY logic is flawed. Did you ride in the short bus to school?

"but seeing an atheist ignore a Christian's post-- that's something new now."

Do you get stupider by the post? This topic (read: THIS TOPIC) is about why we don't believe in god (read: DON'T BELIEVE IN GOD). It's not my job to answer all your stupid questions about science and the bible, because that isn't what this topic is about, and sdtpikachu did a pretty fine job of that.

"Who made God? Nobody, he always has been and always will be. That is the best answer you're ever going to get from anyone and you should probably accept it as so."

LMAO. THIS is probably the biggest reason why I can't stand most religious people's arguments. You believe god "always has been" yet it's impossible to believe that the universe "always has been" ? The universe always has been, and you should probably accept it as so.

"Oh come now-- there he goes ignoring my post once more."

What did I ignore?! And like I said above, this topic isn't me telling you why there isn't a god, it's me telling you why I don't believe god. Read the topic title once more, please.

"Do you really think that Hitler would have stayed silent if he had no "religion." NO. He would have easily found some other foothold."

And how the hell do you know? Oh yeah, I'm sorry, you know everything and everything you say is a fact. You don't know and I don't know, but as it stands we pretty much know that what Hitler did was caused by religion, so let's put up "One big bad thing that killed millions of people" on the "because of religion" list.

"So if you can't feel space, and if you can't touch it, smell it, hear it, or taste it, then you have no clue if it's real, don't you."

Now don't go cry that I ignored your post once more, I just quoted this sentence out of that big paragraph where you go on about the universe being fake.

I understood the universe to be all around me. That's what it is, isn't it? I can touch things around me, I can see things around me... You can't? Well maybe you have some type of mental disorder then, I'm not sure, but trying to prove the universe is fake is (and this isn't a "petty insult") retarded.

"Now understand that to measure the odds of something, it must be possable. For God to create something, He Himself must exist, therefore, in a very subtle on your part and nitpicky on my part way, you've admitted that he does exist."

Don't put words in my mouth.

I said "the odds of there being a god is pretty damn bad." Now could you point out just where the hell I said "the odds of god CREATING something..."? Stop acting like an idiot, it's one thing to "nitpick" and it's another thing to make up things and pretend I said them because it's convenient for you. But then again almost all religious people do it, so it's not only you. Of course, either way, it's a petty insult to you.

If you're so high and mighty on odds, you tell me the odds of there being a god. I'm sorry not everyone had the chance to study odds for a year.

"I do believe that this was addressed in the other posts"

Yes, and in other posts people have said they believe their religion "because it works." Well if you haven't tried every religion, then how would you know if another one didn't work better?
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Old 02-09-2002, 02:30 PM   #152
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hmm.... *reads Chris' post*...

Danchastu: "Yeah...this topic is kinda pointless. No one's all of a sudden going to be like "How could I be so stupid. Now I believe there is/isn't a god." Everyone expressed their beliefs and now people are getting angry. I suggest closing the topic"

I second that...... or would it be third..... or.... Ok how about this....

I agree...

 

Old 02-09-2002, 02:36 PM   #153
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I agree, there shouldn't be any debating in here, but since the topic is about why I don't believe in god, I'll tell you. If someone wants to argue with me, they're the ones making this topic difficult, I'm just doing what the topic is supposed to be about.

":: Claps sarcastically ::

Let's give this man a hand-- he understands the most basic part of propaganda and debate"

*claps sarcastically*

No no, let's give YOU a hand, you've realized I'm right so you insult me. This isn't a debate idiot, it's me telling you why I don't believe god. If you don't like it, get out of this topic that clearly states what I just said in the title.

Now you better call the cops because I'm "ignoring" the rest of your post! It's all about how you don't have all the answers to why I don't believe god, and you know what, WHO CARES? This ISN'T a debate, it's us telling you why we don't believe in god for the eighth time. Don't like it? Suck an ass, or leave.
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Old 02-09-2002, 02:49 PM   #154
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Calm down, Chris. You were doing all right, but insulting is never called for in this forum. Don't argue with me. It's against the rules, period.

I was hoping this topic would manage to stay open. Maybe it still can. I'm leaving it open for now.

But hey, I just got an idea! I'll let someone who believes in God (i.e. BigJustinW) look over this topic now. And if he thinks he should close it, he will.

I'll still be able to reply to it, of course.
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Old 02-09-2002, 04:06 PM   #155
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guys, a lot of you said this topic was pointless and its not going to convert somebody. well, those weren't my intentions. i just wanted to see things from a nonchristian point of view and see what you guys think. then i'm taking these posts and researching anwers for them, for me. so please don't turn this into a big debate. i'd just let it dye. if you want a debate, start your own thread.
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Old 02-09-2002, 05:03 PM   #156
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"I am tired of Christians trying to convince me that there is a God."

The reason I said this is that certain forum members who shall remain nameless have tried to turn this thread into a debate on religion. I posted why I didn't believe in god, with an explanation. Then some people have the audacity to tell me that I'm wrong, and that I am ignorant and stupid and obviously haven't "understood" the bible properly. I was just trying to get them to shut up about it all.

Can you point out the bits in my post that try to convince you there isn't a god? All I am doing is saying why I don't. Though it seems some people have a problem with that.

"But let me just say, if you're willing to change your beliefs because of some chat on the internet, then you were never that solid in them to begin with."

And I still see this as either an invalid argument or arrogance of the highest order. Being solid in your beliefs surely comes as believing them yes? So if someone casts a new and convincing light on this evidence, then you wouldn't change them? Despite being "solid" in them? Saying that you won't change your mind is just a tad stubborn, don't you think?

"I don't expect to be able to solve every Biblical paradox and every arguement ever brought against Christainity."

And yet I am expected to solve every single argument ever brought against the scientific community, it would seem. Sigh.

"And once more, I do believe your logic is flawed."

Not as far as I can see. It goes something like this:
You cannot prove there is a god
You cannot prove there is not
So what do I believe?
Do I believe what I can see with my own eyes, or do I believe what my faith teaches me?

Chris and I have merely taken the former option, and we are just trying to explain why we do so. The words "brick" "head" "bang" and "wall" spring to mind.

"Who made God? Nobody, he always has been and always will be. That is the best answer you're ever going to get from anyone and you should probably accept it as so."

No. We have already explained to you that we both believe the best answer to be god does not exist in the first place. To me at least, that makes a billion times more sense that the "well god exists really but obviously there's no real way to tell" method.
Why should we just accept it because that's the best answer the religoius community can come up with?

"No, there wouldn't have been a 9/11 attack, because odds are the WTC wouldn't have existed."

Irrelevant.

" How can you blame WW2 on Religion? Do you really think that Hitler would have stayed silent if he had no "religion.""

Hitler was a devout christian. He believed in the moral, spiritual and physical superiority of the Aryan race. He used both of these to convince the people to go to war with him. Not only did he tell them they were the finest race on earth, but he said they had god on their side too. Seems like a pretty god incentive to me.

"Now understand that to measure the odds of something, it must be possable. For God to create something, He Himself must exist, therefore, in a very subtle on your part and nitpicky on my part way, you've admitted that he does exist."

Good example of a non-logical assumption.

"Let's give this man a hand-- he understands the most basic part of propaganda and debate."

What was this for? It serves no rational purpose, therefore I cann only conclude that you too are indulging in petty insults.

"Actually it was written by a variaty of authors spanning the last tenthousand or so years and put together by the council of carthage in-- 414 AD I believe. Then again, I could be wrong about the date."

You could also be wrong about the monkeys. Please, be a little more intelligent in your mercurial way of deciding what is fact and what is fiction and what cannot be determined.

"The origional manuscripts are still around-- for the most part anyway-- and I welcome you to take a gander at them and tell me that all of the books of the Bible were written by some village idiot who wanted to keep his friends in line."

Oh I believe quite the opposite - IMO they couldn't have been written by an idiot. They are too well a crafted method of control.

"Again, using the same logic, you can't prove that he doesn't exist so I come to the conclusion that he is real."

This is not logic. This is faith. Logic would dictate "I cannot determine if there is or is not a god. Therefore I shall start from a blank slate and see if I can find out how the universe works, and perhaps that way I can determine which is true"
What you are saying is I don't have an answer, therefore this question must be the right one. To me, it makes no sense to say that just because you don't have an answer for something then it must be due to a god. Maybe it's just me.

"but I'll do what I can to help you reach them yourself."

Surely it would be better if you just left him to do his own thinking?

"If Scientists discover somthing that gives conclusive evidence that God does exist, and he did make this planet, and half of the scientist are still skeptical about it, which stance would you take?"

Why would half of the scientists still be sceptical about it? Again, you misunderstand the scientific method.
The stance I take ios based on reliable material evidence. Nothing more, nothing less. If irefutable evidence were shown of gods existence, then yes I would believe it, as would every scientist worth their salt. This paragraph I imagine will lead you into "then what would prove that god did exist for you then?" I imagine. Sigh.

" I suggest closing the topic."

He's got a point. People are getting too aggressive over all of this. It is not meant to be a debate about religion, it os meant to be explaining to the theists why I am not one of them.

"This WHOLE topic is about us non-believers telling you why we don't believe."

You would have to say that this logic is irefutable, Leon and BJW.

"It's MY logic, I (*I*) think it's logical."

This is a good pint, that I don't believe anyione has made yet. Logic is as much a personal thing as belief. You may think I am illogical in assuming there is no god, I of course take the exact opposite stance. Logic is as much a matter of opinion as whether you prefer Heinz or HP sauce on your chips.
Simply put: I can no longer understand how anyone in possession of the knowledge that I have can believe in a god, because the two are mutually exclusive in my mind. To me, science has disproved god and I can no longer accept that gods exist, because it is in contradiction to observable facts and my logisitical procedure.

"and sdtpikachu did a pretty fine job of that."

Not fine enough I imagine. Give it a few posts and I'll be expected to explain quantum mechanics in how matter can form from nothing. As well as all the rest of it.

"The universe always has been, and you should probably accept it as so."

Why stop there? sdtPikachu always has been, and you should probably just accept it.

""So if you can't feel space, and if you can't touch it, smell it, hear it, or taste it, then you have no clue if it's real, don't you.""

Like I said, on a fundamental level it is impossible to prove that anything exists at all. This however is not a very useful standpoint. So we just have to accept that what we can see does exist. And for me, by extension, things I can't see, never have seen and never see any evidence of DON'T exist.

"Well if you haven't tried every religion, then how would you know if another one didn't work better?"

You would have to agree this is a fair point, Leon. Who knows, you may find becoming a member of the natural law party more fulfilling than your current beliefs. Who knows until you try?

"I agree... "

I fourth... but it would be nice to see if the people who want to know have actually figured out why I think like I do first.

"This isn't a debate idiot"

No Chris, it isn't and wasn't ment to be. It may be galling to be insulted, but it won't get you any further by retaliating in the same fashion. Chill man.

"guys, a lot of you said this topic was pointless and its not going to convert somebody. well, those weren't my intentions"

Ah someone with their head screwed on at last. For all those of you having difficulty understanding THIS IS NOT A DEBATE ON WHY RELIGON/SCIENCE IS RIGHT/WRONG. The chap just wants to find some stuff out for himself in order to understand people like me better.

Surely this isn't something that should be vehemently argued over?
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Old 02-09-2002, 05:38 PM   #157
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Quote:
Why would half of the scientists still be sceptical about it?
Carbon dating

Half scientist belive that it's very accurate, half scientists believe it's very inaccurate. I'm sure you have taken a stance on this issue.

If you believe in the scientific method, stating that you are on either side would make your whole arguement a contradiction. (which it already is)

So once again, if a scientist who is studying evolution sumbled upon a building block that would have been impossible were it not for a god, and half scientist believe, and half don't, which stance would you take on the issue?

Skeptisisim or Acceptisism(<---I made this word up)
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Old 02-09-2002, 05:55 PM   #158
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"Who made God? Nobody, he always has been and always will be. That is the best answer you're ever going to get from anyone and you should probably accept it as so."

Exactly the problem with religion. You can't explain everything. Christianity is 2000 years old. I'm sorry, but things change. We know better on a lot of issues now, and now religion has run out of answers.
 

Old 02-09-2002, 05:59 PM   #159
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Just what is it that you don't understand BJW?

"Half scientist belive that it's very accurate, half scientists believe it's very inaccurate."

I'd like to see your evidence. Unless of course you're referring to creation "scientists", who don't adhere to the scientific method.

Every single scientist I know he knows anything about carbon dating will admit that is has it's faults - it is useless on anything over 20-30,000 years old. This you could term as a failing, rather than an inaccuracy. As far as more recent specimens go, it will give us the correct date to within a margin of about 3% in 99% of all cases.

But you still seem to think that these "failings" in carbon dating render all other methods of radiometric dating as useless too. This is the same logic that creation scientists apply, and I think even you would be able to see its fallacy. Our theories about the nature of the earth DO NOT rely on carbon dating in any way, shape or form.

"If you believe in the scientific method, stating that you are on either side would make your whole arguement a contradiction. (which it already is)"

Firstly, you are again stating that I am wrong, and are showing a grand total of zero for respect and understanding of my beliefs.

Secondly, I am not taking sides. What exactly is the purpose of this comment, other than to call me a stupid twat? Explain please.

"So once again, if a scientist who is studying evolution sumbled upon a building block that would have been impossible were it not for a god, and half scientist believe, and half don't, which stance would you take on the issue?"

If a scientist studying evolution came across something that could not in any way be attributed to a naturally explainable event, then it would be every scientists duty as a scientist to accept this finding. I believe what the evidence shows. For the billionth f***ing time.

"Skeptisisim or Acceptisism"

Scepticism always. Never stop asking questions.
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Old 02-09-2002, 06:11 PM   #160
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Quote:
Originally posted by sdtPikachu
But you still seem to think that these "failings" in carbon dating render all other methods of radiometric dating as useless too. This is the same logic that creation scientists apply, and I think even you would be able to see its fallacy. Our theories about the nature of the earth DO NOT rely on carbon dating in any way, shape or form.
What do they rely on?

Quote:
"If you believe in the scientific method, stating that you are on either side would make your whole arguement a contradiction. (which it already is)"

Firstly, you are again stating that I am wrong, and are showing a grand total of zero for respect and understanding of my beliefs.

Secondly, I am not taking sides. What exactly is the purpose of this comment, other than to call me a stupid twat? Explain please.
Well, let's see, you claim to be skeptical about everything, but you believe in things you haven't seen or studied for yourself.

Quote:
"So once again, if a scientist who is studying evolution sumbled upon a building block that would have been impossible were it not for a god, and half scientist believe, and half don't, which stance would you take on the issue?"

If a scientist studying evolution came across something that could not in any way be attributed to a naturally explainable event, then it would be every scientists duty as a scientist to accept this finding. I believe what the evidence shows. For the billionth f***ing time.
temper temper

When you get pissed off, you lose the debate, period.

Quote:
"Skeptisisim or Acceptisism"

Scepticism always. Never stop asking questions.
When you learned about Gravity, were you skepticle?

do you believe that the world is round?

Have you been to outter space?

Do you know that outter space is real?

has man landed on the moon?

from the abouve questions, what personal experience proves it?

do you believe thing through the personal experiences of other people (astronauts etc.)?

and don't tell me these questions are pointless, because the point is coming after the next post you make.
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Old 02-09-2002, 06:30 PM   #161
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"What do they rely on?"

Uranium-lead dating. Thorium dating. Strontium-rubidium dating. Helium dating. Fission track dating. There are many, and not one of them depends on the same variables that C14 dating does.

"Well, let's see, you claim to be skeptical about everything, but you believe in things you haven't seen or studied for yourself."

I trust the experts on quantum mechanics to give good quantum mechanics data. I trust tose who study biology to give good biology data. Etc, etc.
The entire scientific realm is too vast to be understood by a single human. It takes the combined efforts of thousands of people forming, combinig, testing, rejecting and unifying theories to make any sense out of this vastly complicated system we're in.

And there are those who jst say "bollocks to it - if I believe in god, I can explain it all away myself." Fine by me, you go ahead and do so. Just not my cuppa tea. I don't want to believe. Not when I can know.

"When you get pissed off, you lose the debate, period."

Illogical assumption. I am impatient that you totally fail to grasp my reasoning why I believe what I believe. Just because someone loses their cool a bit, they're automatically wrong? In that case, all the born agains, all the jehovahs witnesses, all of my grandparents who tried to convince me that god exists were wrong too?

"When you learned about Gravity, were you skepticle?"

No, because gravity can be seen. I am sceptical of the theory of gravitation if that's what you mean.

"do you believe that the world is round?"

Because for the main part pictures taken have shown it to be round. But it would also be mathematically impossible for the world to exist if it weren't.
Ever wondered why the shadow cast on the moon is curved? Funnily enough, if you work it out geometrically, it seems to suggest that the earth is an ellipsoidal body of rock with a radius of approximately 6400km.

"from the abouve questions, what personal experience proves it?"

Why do I need a personal experience to prove it? I don't go about proving things on personal experience, I go about by actually looking at stuff.

I would be intruiged to find out what your "point" is. In the meantime, brush up on your arguing technique here.
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Prove the existance of GOD?
Old 02-09-2002, 07:28 PM   #162
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Prove the existance of GOD?

If you were to prove the existance of god then you would deny faith. If you deny faith then you deny religion and if you go around denying religion then you deny god.

Does this still sound like the kind of thing a good god fearing person should do?

Bad luck, you (BJW) lose, poor god >:) The end
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Old 02-09-2002, 08:58 PM   #163
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Ok, I'm really sick of all these religion debates going on. Lets get my idea straight. I believe in God and I don't believe that there is anyway to prove God because the whole reason for religion is to have FAITH.

What would be the point of religion if we knew there was God and could see and touch him? God is not a tangible thing, he is a supernatural being that is not of this world. I laugh when I hear of people trying to prove God's existence because it can't be done. That is the main reason why I find these debates pretty much pointless. Skeptics will never have faith because you will continue to ask questions that can't be answered and then say "Well, God can't exist then."

Believe me, I do have some skepticism in me, but I have to remember what faith im my God is. It is not about proving or seeing for yourself. Its more of a feeling.
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Old 02-09-2002, 09:46 PM   #164
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*claps*

Well spoken. Have some doubloons.

And get some more from Kitana85.
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Old 02-09-2002, 09:48 PM   #165
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I totally agree Blackmane.

Somethings in life, you just can't explain by experiments or whatever. You just have to beleive.
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